Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

Let's say you were super strong anti-ban and despite what you wanted, MK was going away.

In 6 months, we'dl ook at it again and might bring him back.


What would you look for to see if he should come back? To see if he should stay gone?

 

[Eddie G]

Hmm...Adumbrodeus, I've seen you ask the question countless times but have never seen anyone ask you.

How much is too much to you?

 

[Dark.Pch]

For me I pay more attention to characters oplacing better than before. Of course it be the same boring crap with Snakes placing high I believe. But I think top ten would be full with different characters each time at big tournaments.

 

[etecoon]

Let's say you were super strong anti-ban and despite what you wanted, MK was going away.

In 6 months, we'dl ook at it again and might bring him back.


What would you look for to see if he should come back? To see if he should stay gone?

to me, if you temp ban him you're admitting that he's a problem that needs to be banned. the only way you unban him from that is if another character does the same thing he was doing but worse.

 

[M@v]

Im tired of taking sides in this issue; people call you ******** either way. -_-

I really don't see why he needs banned, but if he does, one less person to worry about. Maybe I'll look into this more and pick a side eventually. I normally don't get knocked out by mks....only by matchups I don't know well.

The only thing I like about the ban idea is more character diversity, but it wouldnt be that much since DDD, Falco, and Ice climbers still make a ton of people unviable.

 

[Ripple]

Let's say you were super strong anti-ban and despite what you wanted, MK was going away.

In 6 months, we'd look at it again and might bring him back.


What would you look for to see if he should come back? To see if he should stay gone?

i would look for character diversity at the top of the meta game. not just snake and diddy

olimar, pikachu, DDD, all become more viable along with many others such as peach.

with more snakes there will be more DDDs. with more wario's there will be more D3s. with more D3s there will be more pikachu's and olimars. with more olimars there will be more peaches. with more peach there will be more Rob. more rob means more.......

and it continues.

except for DK :/ DK will get wrecked even harder

DK is the only character to suffer more with MK gone than with MK in the game

 

[gallax]

Let's say you were super strong anti-ban and despite what you wanted, MK was going away.

In 6 months, we'dl ook at it again and might bring him back.


What would you look for to see if he should come back? To see if he should stay gone?

i would look at two things mainly:

1- are there more people playing smash at tourney level?

2-how diverse are the results for big tournaments? are there now more than 2-3 characters winning and/or placing top5? how about top 10?

 

[Allied]

I think some lulz is needed in this c*ckfest of law and order in a video game

 

[HeroMystic]

Too much talk about diversity.

What about rulesets? Does Planking, Scrooging, and Stalling become lesser with Metaknight banned?

 

[Ripple]

Too much talk about diversity.

What about rulesets? Does Planking, Scrooging, and Stalling become lesser with Metaknight banned?

yes, since he's the one everyone is complaining about stalling too much

 

[Allied]

Too much talk about diversity.

What about rulesets? Does Planking, Scrooging, and Stalling become lesser with Metaknight banned?

doubtful other characters can do it too and the people who did it in the first place will most likey do it with a 2nd best character who can do it

this diversity talk is really boring because theres no consistant proof that it will even happen the best outcome i've seen is Hobo and even then its not as diverse as imagine you got snake , diddy now in top

Also i got a question if you take 3 metaknights in a strong region ban them and you had 5 Power ranked D3s

Well now you have 5 D3s in 1 region taking top spots so this diversity talk doesn't mean much other than what you "Want" to see

Whats going to happen is the people who mained characters who place well, will continue placing well

enough said

 

[etecoon]

you still need a LGL to stop some characters from planking, but it works, meta knight's stalling can't be regulated so easily, he can get around any discreet rule you can come up with.

 

[Ripple]

I just realized with MK gone DK is even more unviable.......

hmmmmm who to main now? PT? Fox? peach?

 

[Allied]

I just realized with MK gone DK is even more unviable.......

hmmmmm who to main now? PT? Fox? peach?

not really true i mean thats your opinion or whatever but

Dk imo is just barely viable either way

Enjoy your D3 filled world with metaknight gone though

 

[Count]

I think Diddy might actually get worse with mk gone as well, just because we'll run into more luigi, peach, etc.

 

[Overswarm]

I just realized with MK gone DK is even more unviable.......

hmmmmm who to main now? PT? Fox? peach?

Is he really?

Think of it this way:


DK gets wrecked by MK and D3.

MK is removed, but more D3s will take his place.

You main DK.


If you went up against someone before, they could

a) CP MK
b) CP D3
c) main MK
d) main D3

and you'd be screwed

now you have half the "I'm screwed!" options. While one of them will increase in number, the more popular one will be erradicated completely.

In addition to this, you can CP D3. You cannot CP MK. So you could pick up Falco, Pikachu, Olimar, or some other D3 beatin' machine and use him as a strong secondary.

I think Diddy might actually get worse with mk gone as well, just because we'll run into more luigi, peach, etc.

This however is true.

 

[Allied]

Just because MK is gone doesn't necessarily mean other low tier characters POP out on top thats just opinion and spectulation

they still have plenty of hard counters just as well as MK hence low tier

 

[Overswarm]

Just because MK is gone doesn't necessarily mean other low tier characters POP out on top

they still have plenty of hard counters just as well as MK hence low tier

One of the issues MK brought to the table is that he was a hard counter to some characters (like Peach) and was freakishly common. Olimar might say "I think I can do it!" but can he do it five times in one tournament? Doubtful.

Now people can pick up secondaries to deal with troubling matchups.

 

[Allied]

One of the issues MK brought to the table is that he was a hard counter to some characters (like Peach) and was freakishly common. Olimar might say "I think I can do it!" but can he do it five times in one tournament? Doubtful.

Now people can pick up secondaries to deal with troubling matchups.

Peach has other hard counters too and yeah MK is common because hes a top tier character thats what happens when you have a high tier character

hes overused and olimar still can say "i think i can do it" have you seen Dabuz/Blackwaltz/Logic

They poop on MK and other characters as well Logic camps so well i end up timing myself out trying to find ways to approach.

And you can pick up secondaries now to deal with troubling matchups

I picked up snake, Helps me with Marth/MK/ Icies/ Wierder matchups

my main is kirby

there you go problem solved and now i'm content in tournament

edit - brb shower XD

 

[Overswarm]

hes overused and olimar still can say "i think i can do it" have you seen Dabuz/Blackwaltz/Logic

In my data I saw logic once. So... kinda. Saw a lot of MKs though.

 

[M@v]

In addition to this, you can CP D3. You cannot CP MK.

And this is where I get annoyed. You just assume you can't CP mk, and that is a foundation for your whole argument.
You never showed reasoning on WHY mk can't be CPd. Last time I checked, he does worse on flatter stages, and Snake Falco Diddy ICs all do pretty well against him. Mk is the best character; he is not supposed to have many bad matchups.

In addition, those 4 can pretty much take on the rest of the cast with one or 2 exceptions.

 

[Tien2500]

Things I would look for in a temp ban.

1. Attendance- A competitive game needs players and one of the arguments against MK is that he's killing the tournament scene so this is a no brainer.

2. Matches ending in time limit- Another argument is that MK employs tactics that discourage actual fighting and encourage stalling (for lack of a better word. I know its not stalling by definition). So lets see if any other characters can do this or if its an MK only problem. The best way to tell this I think would be to see how many matches end in time outs.

3. Viability- Samus and Link still won't be winning tournaments but characters on the edge of viability such as ZSS, Lucario, Peach,Marth, and ROB might start placing well consistently. Or maybe not.

4. Balance among the top- If MK is gone do we Snake or Diddy go head and shoulders above the rest of the cast? Will there still be a clear cut best option or will there be a few good options at the top.

I think those are the main things to look for. I don't think a change in any one of those will necessarily be enough to warrant keeping MK banned (unless the change is really really drastic) but a combination of those factors might be enough. Ultimately it comes down to what the community thinks is most important to Smash.

 

[Overswarm]

And this is where I get annoyed. You just assume you can't CP mk, and that is a foundation for your whole argument.
You never showed reasoning on WHY mk can't be CPd. Last time I checked, he does worse on flatter stages, and Snake Falco Diddy ICs all do pretty well against him. Mk is the best character; he is not supposed to have many bad matchups.

"doing worse" doesn't mean "losing".

A cat does worse in an open area than it would an area with lots of places to hide, but it's still gonna kick the *** of all the mice in either scenario.

 

[etecoon]

he does worse on flatter stages, and Snake Falco Diddy ICs all do pretty well against him. Mk is the best character; he is not supposed to have many bad matchups.

he doesn't do badly on flat stages. snake and IC's matchup vs MK is overrated, neither is that amazing against him. not getting ***** like everyone else and doing well are two different things. doing well would be near even. the issue isn't that MK has few bad matchups, it's that he has zero matchups that are even remotely disadvantaged. at best, falco and diddy might be even with him. with good anti-planking rules only.

 

[Overswarm]

Things I would look for in a temp ban.

1. Attendance- A competitive game needs players and one of the arguments against MK is that he's killing the tournament scene so this is a no brainer.

2. Matches ending in time limit- Another argument is that MK employs tactics that discourage actual fighting and encourage stalling (for lack of a better word. I know its not stalling by definition). So lets see if any other characters can do this or if its an MK only problem. The best way to tell this I think would be to see how many matches end in time outs.

3. Viability- Samus and Link still won't be winning tournaments but characters on the edge of viability such as ZSS, Lucario, Peach,Marth, and ROB might start placing well consistently. Or maybe not.

4. Balance among the top- If MK is gone do we Snake or Diddy go head and shoulders above the rest of the cast? Will there still be a clear cut best option or will there be a few good options at the top.

I think those are the main things to look for. I don't think a change in any one of those will necessarily be enough to warrant keeping MK banned (unless the change is really really drastic) but a combination of those factors might be enough. Ultimately it comes down to what the community thinks is most important to Smash.

Good post.

Keep it up everyone!

 

[M@v]

Yeah, doing worse normally translates to "Bad stage"


I would never want to use mk on fd for example. He gets camped too hard by snake and Falco, and then Icys have an easier time grabbing him. Lastly, Diddy's nanners.

 

[RDK]

And this is where I get annoyed. You just assume you can't CP mk, and that is a foundation for your whole argument.
You never showed reasoning on WHY mk can't be CPd. Last time I checked, he does worse on flatter stages, and Snake Falco Diddy ICs all do pretty well against him. Mk is the best character; he is not supposed to have many bad matchups.

In addition, those 4 can pretty much take on the rest of the cast with one or 2 exceptions.

Dude, MK doesn't have soft or hard counters. Even I admit that.

He goes even with himself and arguably Diddy.

I'd like to host an experimental tournament to see how the matchups changed if we allowed Shadow Moses and Bridge of Eldin.

Things I would look for in a temp ban.

1. Attendance- A competitive game needs players and one of the arguments against MK is that he's killing the tournament scene so this is a no brainer.

2. Matches ending in time limit- Another argument is that MK employs tactics that discourage actual fighting and encourage stalling (for lack of a better word. I know its not stalling by definition). So lets see if any other characters can do this or if its an MK only problem. The best way to tell this I think would be to see how many matches end in time outs.

3. Viability- Samus and Link still won't be winning tournaments but characters on the edge of viability such as ZSS, Lucario, Peach,Marth, and ROB might start placing well consistently. Or maybe not.

4. Balance among the top- If MK is gone do we Snake or Diddy go head and shoulders above the rest of the cast? Will there still be a clear cut best option or will there be a few good options at the top.

I think those are the main things to look for. I don't think a change in any one of those will necessarily be enough to warrant keeping MK banned (unless the change is really really drastic) but a combination of those factors might be enough. Ultimately it comes down to what the community thinks is most important to Smash.

A temp ban would have to be way longer than 3 to 6 months to show anything. Data over that short a length of time would be meaningless; IMO you'd have to temp ban him for at least a year.

Good luck getting all the TO's in every region to agree with that, though.

 

[solecalibur]

It might not have been 2 years, but ever since Mango came into the scene with Jiggs, he hasn't lost.

Hbox has been dominating FL with Jiggs.

People complained about MK the first few months. It's been a few months for Jiggs, so let's start now.

Jiggs has bad MU's meta does not

Snake was higher than MK at the beginning of the game at one point. It hasn't been 2 years of MK dominance yet.
Wasn't snake higher then MK for a total of 3 months tops and that was character ranking not tier
Pikachu has been proven to destroy every other character in Smash 64 for a good almost 10 years now, yet he isn't banned. In fact, the top few players don't even main Pikachu.
I can beat everyone in my neighborhood with captain falcon consider my neighborhood the world and my neighborhood friends using nothing but higher tier characters what now?
Edit: You can get the last word in. I'm done with this argument/debate/whateverwecallit. I'm getting hungry too.
EAT FOOD

Correction

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, doing worse normally translates to "Bad stage"

Psst... Falco, Snake and ICs do well on flat stages. It isn't that MK does worse.

Did I also mention all the data we have shows MK is doing A-OK on these stages? =P

If they actually CPed MK, he'd be taken there twice every set. He is anyways, it just doesn't work.

 

[gallax]

2. Matches ending in time limit- Another argument is that MK employs tactics that discourage actual fighting and encourage stalling (for lack of a better word. I know its not stalling by definition). So lets see if any other characters can do this or if its an MK only problem. The best way to tell this I think would be to see how many matches end in time outs.

there still are characters that can time out opponents now. i cant tell you hwo many times ive seen a pit or toon link time out someone.

 

[etecoon]

Yeah, doing worse normally translates to "Bad stage"


I would never want to use mk on fd for example. He gets camped too hard by snake and Falco, and then Icys have an easier time grabbing him. Lastly, Diddy's nanners.

I play snake's on FD all the time, it's really not that bad. falco is easy to ban FD against here because japes isn't legal...

 

[deepseadiva]

Just an fyi: MK was never a hard counter to Peach.

Early last year Praxis and Edreese briefly considered it 35:65 because Tornado was a problem then. Tornado is a slight nuisance now, and its been considered a viable match-up for a long time already.

Also, she doesn't have any hard counters.

Also, I got ninja'd by like 10 people. This thread is dumb.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If meta was out I could see Peach placing better. Her next and only pain in the as smatch up would be Marth. Everything else in A tier she goes even with or beat.

Edit- Snake and G&W have a small advatanage oh her, big whoop, she can still take them.

 

[etecoon]

If meta was out I could see Peach placing better. Her next and only pain in the as smatch up would be Marth. Everything else in A tier she goes even with or beat.

people should really just stop bringing peach up in this forum, really, ask yourself if it's worth it people

 

[Eddie G]

Peach has other hard counters too

You mean: "Peach has another hard counter", and that's just considering the pre-determined matchup ratio.

Marth.

And that matchup is still way more manageable than the MK matchup despite the ratio similarity, I assure you.

Her matchup spread is basically 50-50 across the board with a couple of 45-55s here and there, with MK and Marth being the only two notable splotches.

But all technical mish-mash aside, I know both matchups and both are winnable. Peach is viable.

 

[Tien2500]

there still are characters that can time out opponents now. i cant tell you hwo many times ive seen a pit or toon link time out someone.

Possibly. That's why I suggested looking for that data. But while other characters have means to time people out none of them have been shown to be as effective at high levels as MK's techniques. There will still be time outs of course but I suspect there would be a drop off.

 

[Tommy_G]

Correction

I did. It was delicious. Pasta is so good. Baked Ziti and so inexpensive compared to everything else.

 

[-Ran]

Ideally, this would be the data that we would gain from six month Meta Knight Hiatus.

1) The Match up dynamics of a tournament without Mk.
2) Much akin to one, the population shift of characters and the changes of their Metagame.
3) Will Counter Picking become more significant without the catch all character MK?
4) Will we no longer need to make rules to govern a single character?
5) Will stage counter picks be more necessary, trending away from picking neutrals?
6) Do more people attend?
7) Who steps up? [since certain 'pros' would be quitting.]

I feel that the third is the most important question really. Something that almost everyone has voiced about Smash is that it is a game of counter picking your opponent. Many have claimed that MK breaks this system since he has no matches that fall outside of his favor. You can learn MK, and use him against every character in the game without really having an issue. Now, if MK is removed from the equation, what happens? Does Counter Picking suddenly reclaim its throne as the governing force of Smash?

I dare say, that if the third question is answered as a yes, then we almost would have no choice but to keep Meta Knight Banned. Diversity is GOOD for a game, especially when it is one of the main features of its competitive scene.

 

[M@v]

You mean: "Peach has another hard counter", and that's just considering the pre-determined matchup ratio.

Marth.

And that matchup is still way more manageable than the MK matchup despite the ratio similarity, I assure you.

Her matchup spread is basically 50-50 across the board with a couple of 45-55s here and there, with MK and Marth being the only two notable splotches.

But all technical mish-mash aside, I know both matchups and both are winnable. Peach is viable.

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 peach NEVER(and if I missed one where she did, sorry, because they might be one?) placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

 

[solecalibur]

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 peach NEVER(and if I missed one where she did, sorry, because they might be one?) placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

Lack of rep
Zss has the same problem to hard to use for beginners per say