Official Metaknight Discussion

[Eddie G]

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 NEVER placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

What does that have to do with how she does against the rest of the cast?

There are so many factors that go into how people place at tournaments that it's impossible to even accurately discuss.

What you brought up is one giant slice of irrelevant cake.

 

[M@v]

@ sole
Still doesnt mean the best peaches should be placing that high. It just means there would be more of them making brackets.

@ KB

Last time I checked, tourney results are one of the major arguments in this thread. Its also one of the main aspects in deciding like....everything (tier list, this ban issue, etc.) By that logic I could dismiss all the mk results because there were "too many factors involved", so hes not ban worthy,

 

[etecoon]

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 peach NEVER(and if I missed one where she did, sorry, because they might be one?) placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

cataclysm 4

"1 - M2K (MK)
2 - Azen (Peach/Pit/Fox/DDD/Luigi) mostly peach though from what i saw"

not solo obviously but still

 

[Dark.Pch]

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 peach NEVER(and if I missed one where she did, sorry, because they might be one?) placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, KB do you want this one or me, Cause I am about ready to bring the hurt.

 

[Overswarm]

Did you just ask why a rarely played character who is hard countered by the most common and most successful character in the game never made it to the top 10 in a tournament where the best attend in droves?

 

[solecalibur]

@ sole
Still doesnt mean the best peaches should be placing that high. It just means there would be more of them making brackets.

The top two Zss players quit/stop going to many tounrys for awhile now and our metagame hasnt really been picking up since then (Nick riddle and patg are taking there place more or less )

 

[Eddie G]

@ sole
Still doesnt mean the best peaches should be placing that high. It just means there would be more of them making brackets.

Of course they won't with an abundance of MKs similar to how it was at Pound (I was there, I witnessed/played against them, I know). See Overswarm's description on how MK influences/shapes the tier list to understand why there is a lack of Peach, ZSS, Lucario representation, etc.

 

[RDK]

Ideally, this would be the data that we would gain from six month Meta Knight Hiatus.

1) The Match up dynamics of a tournament without Mk.
2) Much akin to one, the population shift of characters and the changes of their Metagame.
3) Will Counter Picking become more significant without the catch all character MK?
4) Will we no longer need to make rules to govern a single character?
5) Will stage counter picks be more necessary, trending away from picking neutrals?
6) Do more people attend?
7) Who steps up? [since certain 'pros' would be quitting.]

I feel that the third is the most important question really. Something that almost everyone has voiced about Smash is that it is a game of counter picking your opponent. Many have claimed that MK breaks this system since he has no matches that fall outside of his favor. You can learn MK, and use him against every character in the game without really having an issue. Now, if MK is removed from the equation, what happens? Does Counter Picking suddenly reclaim its throne as the governing force of Smash?

I dare say, that if the third question is answered as a yes, then we almost would have no choice but to keep Meta Knight Banned. Diversity is GOOD for a game, especially when it is one of the main features of its competitive scene.

Did you read my post?

Also, M@V, just stop talking. Srsly.

 

[Crow!]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, KB do you want this one or me, Cause I am about ready to bring the hurt.

KB already quoted that response, so I'm guessing it's all you. Go for it.

 

[M@v]

Did you just ask why a rarely played character who is hard countered by the most common and most successful character in the game never made it to the top 10 in a tournament where the best attend in droves?

But by your logic almost everyone is hard countered by mk, so why are we still getting even a few other people in results? This is what i mean, the same questions get asked, countered, then recountered over and over again -.-

 

[-Ran]

Did you read my post?

Also, M@V, just stop talking. Srsly.

No, but you claim that a temp ban of six months wouldn't produce enough evidence. My counter-claim to that, would be what evidence do you have that would suggest other wise?

A six month chunk of time would be 20% of the total time that the game has been released and played a competitive level. Let me reinterate, six months is a CONSIDERABLE amount of a time in a game that has been out for two years. By and large, we have explored many of the meta games of the various characters, but the main question that remains to be answered is how will they shift if Mk is no longer the main feature of a tournament. Though you could argue that it would take time for a player to learn a new character, many high level players are capable of learning a new skill set in under a month when motivated.

To be honest, I feel that a three month time span would be enough to create meaningful data if held over the summer.

 

[etecoon]

But by your logic almost everyone is hard countered by mk, so why are we still getting even a few other people in results?

he didn't say this. a few characters like falco and diddy don't do too bad against MK, and a few others like snake and wario are alright. but he loses to no one and there's no reason not to play him when it's so much easier, hence him being over centralizing.

 

[Tien2500]

But by your logic almost everyone is hard countered by mk, so why are we still getting even a few other people in results?

I don't believe anyone ever said that...

 

[Overswarm]

But by your logic almost everyone is hard countered by mk, so why are we still getting even a few other people in results? This is what i mean, the same questions get asked, countered, then recountered over and over again -.-

You're not even trying anymore

It's illogical to assume 100% dominance in a competitive environment.

 

[Eddie G]

@ KB

Last time I checked, tourney results are one of the major arguments in this thread. Its also one of the main aspects in deciding like....everything (tier list, this ban issue, etc.) By that logic I could dismiss all the mk results because there were "too many factors involved", so hes not ban worthy,

Mav, we can dance around all you like with that reasoning since the same would apply to the recent victory ADHD has over M2K, but the fact of the matter is...the majority doesn't see things that way. They accept what happened as it is and some (for whatever reason) even decide to use said example as their reasoning in an anti-ban argument.

My point? No, you cannot dismiss the MK results. People choose to look at them as finalized facts just as people choose to view ADHD > M2K just as the victory it is without diving deeper into how or why it happened.

 

[Flayl]

But by your logic almost everyone is hard countered by mk, so why are we still getting even a few other people in results?

Adding on to what etecoon said (not all of his matchups are great advantages), being disadvantaged in a matchup does not mean a character will lose 100% of the time. It's clearly possible to beat lesser skilled players, hence why Ally does much better against MK's that aren't M2K.

 

[M@v]

cataclysm 4

"1 - M2K (MK)
2 - Azen (Peach/Pit/Fox/DDD/Luigi) mostly peach though from what i saw"

not solo obviously but still

Talking mainly peach with a backup here or there.

And just curious, how long ago was that? xD

Its azen so it had to be a while.

Adding on to what etecoon said (not all of his matchups are great advantages), being disadvantaged in a matchup does not mean a character will lose 100% of the time. It's clearly possible to beat lesser skilled players, hence why Ally does much better against MK's that aren't M2K.

At the same time, I could turn that around on you and say that Snake beats mk, since Ally beats every one minus m2k(and he still wins against him like half the time), and that m2k is just that good. (I dont believe thats true, but im trying to show how these arguments can go around in circles)

 

[etecoon]

it was a little over a year ago IIRC, and the results page stated, as I included in the quote, that he did mostly use peach with others as backup. you could certainly discredit it as being irrelevant to the modern metagame, but it's not true that peach has never done anything in a national

edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215698

yeah, about a year

 

[Flayl]

Mav, we can dance around all you like with that reasoning since the same would apply to the recent victory ADHD has over M2K, but the fact of the matter is...the majority doesn't see things that way. They accept what happened as it is and some (for whatever reason) even decide to use said example as their reasoning in an anti-ban argument.

My point? No, you cannot dismiss the MK results. People choose to look at them as finalized facts just as people choose to view ADHD > M2K just as the victory it is without diving deeper into how or why it happened.

To be fair to the anti-ban ADHD VS M2K has happened plenty of times, so it's easy to assume M2K should have learned the matchup by now and ADHD won through skill and skill alone. But as multiple people have said, for whatever the reason that isn't the case.

 

[Zankoku]

What, so now "never gotten top 10 EVER" actually means "never gotten top 10 in recent times?"

M@v, the amount you backpedal with your arguments is amusing.

 

[Allied]

we talking about peach and why she isn't viable?

Cuz you fools don't push yourself no johns

INb4 peach army

but i can understand no representation but the ones that are repping should be able to place high saying that she has good matchups across the board lol

 

[Flayl]

At the same time, I could turn that around on you and say that Snake beats mk, since Ally beats every one minus m2k(and he still wins against him like half the time), and that m2k is just that good. (I dont believe thats true, but im trying to show how these arguments can go around in circles)

Actually that's not a fair comparison at all. You're taking one player to determine the ratio whereas I'm taking the ratio, dependant on a long series of experiences and tournament data, to show Ally wins a slightly disadvantaged matchup against every MK except M2K.

 

[Judo777]

What, so now "never gotten top 10 EVER" actually means "never gotten top 10 in recent times?"

M@v, the amount you backpedal with your arguments is amusing.

Ankoku is the smartest person on the boards.

That is all!

 

[M@v]

eh. a year ago. It is pre-cot4/apex/genesis. I guess its who you are.

Edit:
**** people need to stop posting so fast. I put a reply without quotes and we are halfway down the page.


And fine. You guys win. I make ****ty arguments.
There happy?

 

[Eddie G]

we talking about peach and why she isn't viable?

Cuz you fools don't push yourself no johns

...You're an absolute ****** if you don't think we are/have been pushing ourselves.

Peaches...attack!

 

[etecoon]

Ankoku is the smartest person on the boards.

That is all!

I get no credit for instantly remembering the results for a tournament from over a year ago? >:

...You're an absolute ****** if you don't think we are/have been pushing ourselves.

maybe someone's overrating your MU's : p

 

[RDK]

All of this is irrelevant.

If you were playing to win, you would switch to Metaknight. It's as easy as that.

Scrubs.

 

[solecalibur]

To be fair to the anti-ban ADHD VS M2K has happened plenty of times, so it's easy to assume M2K should have learned the matchup by now and ADHD won through skill and skill alone. But as multiple people have said, for whatever the reason that isn't the case.

M2k just learned out to z drop an item last weekend
^_^"

 

[Allied]

...You're an absolute ****** if you don't think we are/have been pushing ourselves.

Peaches...attack!

i was joking lmao my favorite peach though who places high is dpch

I get no credit for instantly remembering the results for a tournament from over a year ago? >:



maybe someone's overrating your MU's : p

PEACH IS LOW TIER MAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

no really though peaches just have no rep which is fine because that means people aren't familar with matchups

 

[M@v]

@RDK

Or anyone with the letter S next to their tier.

 

[Allied]

M2k just learned out to z drop an item last weekend
^_^"

He always knew that >__> how do you think he counter's peaches in melee with their turnips

lol

edit - where do people hear this sh*t

 

[Black Marf]

At the same time, I could turn that around on you and say that Snake beats mk, since Ally beats every one minus m2k(and he still wins against him like half the time), and that m2k is just that good. (I dont believe thats true, but im trying to show how these arguments can go around in circles)

Yes, and the army of Snakes dominating MKs in tourneys back up this conclusion concisely.

All of this is irrelevant.

If you were playing to win, you would switch to Metaknight. It's as easy as that.

Scrubs.

This is true. This doesn't change the fact that Brawl is a badly balanced game, and it could possibly be more competitive if it was better balanced.

The entire pro-ban side is based on balancing the game, not a scrub cry.

 

[Eddie G]

maybe someone's overrating your MU's : p

Hardly.

It just takes a lot of effort to maintain the consistency needed for her to do well. A forest of MKs makes it that much more difficult.

 

[etecoon]

@RDK

Or anyone with the letter S next to their tier.

tier list is badly outdated and is only organized as such to begin with for ease of reading. realistically, MK IS S tier.

 

[Allied]

Yes, and the army of Snakes dominating MKs in tourneys back up this conclusion concisely.

This is true. This doesn't change the fact that Brawl is a badly balanced game, and it could possibly be more competitive if it was better balanced.

The entire pro-ban side is based on balancing the game, not a scrub cry.

Yo for all the people who think brawl is so BADLY balanced i dare you to play another fighter competitively with this many characters and call it balanced

Brawl wasn't trying to even be a competitive fighter but turned out pretty good

Theres games like mortal kombat that try to make it balanced and FAIL miserably lolol

Inb4 Overswarm

 

[HeroMystic]

**** people need to stop posting so fast. I put a reply without quotes and we are halfway down the page.

I'm surprised myself with how fast this thread is moving ever since you posted.

 

[Eddie G]

He always knew that >__> how do you think he counter's peaches in melee with their turnips

lol

edit - where do people hear this sh*t

I don't know, maybe at the tournaments we attend with him present.

Look at my location, look at it. Still looking? Look more.

 

[Flayl]

All of this is irrelevant.

If you were playing to win, you would switch to Metaknight. It's as easy as that.

Scrubs.

Actually, that would be the worst decision to make in a metagame where everybody has MK practice. The real best choice would be to pick a character that goes even with MK and has small representation in the metagame, and pick secondaries accordingly.

But some people are switching to MK and will soon find out that they are way behind in MK ditto experience, and unless they seriously outskill their MK counterparts, they're doomed to being just another MK.

 

[RDK]

He always knew that >__> how do you think he counter's peaches in melee with their turnips

lol

edit - where do people hear this sh*t

IMHO M2K actually knew how to instant-throw / item cancel; he's just mindgaming the community into thinking he didn't so MK doesn't get banned.

Yes, and the army of Snakes dominating MKs in tourneys back up this conclusion concisely.

This is true. This doesn't change the fact that Brawl is a badly balanced game, and it could possibly be more competitive if it was better balanced.

The entire pro-ban side is based on balancing the game, not a scrub cry.

Obviously Brawl is a badly balanced game. But we don't poke the game to fix matchups.

Changes are made to make it fair for the players, not the characters.

While we're banning MK to make Peach, Olimar, etc. more viable, let's ban D3 so DK can become a top contender again!

Actually, that would be the worst decision to make in a metagame where everybody has MK practice. The real best choice would be to pick a character that goes even with MK and has small representation in the metagame, and pick secondaries accordingly.

But some people are switching to MK and will soon find out that they are way behind in MK ditto experience, and unless they seriously outskill their MK counterparts, they're doomed to being just another MK.

Yeah but nobody really goes even with MK except himself and Diddy.

I don't know, maybe at the tournaments we attend with him present.

Look at my location, look at it. Still looking? Look more.

Lol, yeahyuzz Midwest.

 

[etecoon]

Theres games like mortal kombat that try to make it balanced and FAIL miserably lolol

mortal kombat attempts balance? I thought it was as shallow as brawl meant only to showcase stuff like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZvRd544os