Official Metaknight Discussion

[M@v]

tier list is badly outdated and is only organized as such to begin with for ease of reading. realistically, MK IS S tier.

No im quite sure its

Mk
Snake
Diddy
Icys
Falco
DDD



Especially considering Snes Genesis and P4 werent taken by an mk =/.

 

[solecalibur]

He always knew that >__> how do you think he counter's peaches in melee with their turnips

lol

edit - where do people hear this sh*t

More or less joking cant add sarcasm in my post my bad -.-" but he didnt know many item techs until AZ taught him some last week

 

[etecoon]

Especially considering Snes Genesis and P4 werent taken by an mk =/.

and yet MK still outperforms snake nearly 2:1

when you're doing twice as well as your next best competitor, they're not in the same league as you.

 

[Allied]

I don't know, maybe at the tournaments we attend with him present.

Look at my location, look at it. Still looking? Look more.

lol m2k was in new jersey before ohio and he definitally knew what lies hes spreading now (omg i'm so bad at typing fast)

he can't even say he didn't know the diddy MU he was destroying ADHD in tournament for the past year up in NJ learning it while ADHD was getting better haha

IMHO M2K actually knew how to instant-throw / item cancel; he's just mindgaming the community into thinking he didn't so MK doesn't get banned.


Obviously Brawl is a badly balanced game. But we don't poke the game to fix matchups.

Changes are made to make it fair for the players, not the characters.

While we're banning MK to make Peach, Olimar, etc. more viable, let's ban D3 so DK can become a top contender again!



Yeah but nobody really goes even with MK except himself and Diddy.



Lol, yeahyuzz Midwest.

MK is soooo broken

 

[Allied]

and yet MK still outperforms snake nearly 2:1

when you're doing twice as well as your next best competitor, they're not in the same league as you.

My snake doesn't get outperformed like that and i'm sure not every other snake main lol

thats dat overexeration or dat wifi status because none of what you said is true LOL

 

[Allied]

More or less joking cant add sarcasm in my post my bad -.-" but he didnt know many item techs until AZ taught him some last week

Ok thats fine and makes sense unless we play an item character we don't really know how to use it haha

 

[Eddie G]

lol m2k was in new jersey before ohio and he definitally knew what lies hes spreading now (omg i'm so bad at typing fast)

he can't even say he didn't know the diddy MU he was destroying ADHD in tournament for the past year up in NJ learning it while ADHD was getting better haha

Meh, I don't believe you.

I don't think Jason would purposely want to lose out on 1st place cash at Pound 4 if that's what you're implying. Or are you saying that Wyatt simply got better than Jason over time?

 

[Remzi]

My snake doesn't get outperformed like that and i'm sure not every other snake main lol

thats dat overexeration or dat wifi status because none of what you said is true LOL

According to Ankoku's thread, MK has double Snake's points. I believe that's what he is referring to.

And with that kind of data, you really can't place Snake in the same league as MK, he is notches above the rest of the cast.

 

[Black Marf]

Obviously Brawl is a badly balanced game. But we don't poke the game to fix matchups.

Changes are made to make it fair for the players, not the characters.

While we're banning MK to make Peach, Olimar, etc. more viable, let's ban D3 so DK can become a top contender again!

1. Making things fair for the characters makes things fair the players. People like a balanced game. Problem is that at this point you're screwing over a lot of legit MK players if he's banned.

2. Nuking D3 helps only a few matchups (poor D3). Nuking MK helps almost the entire roster. They aren't on the same magnitude at all.

IMHO M2K actually knew how to instant-throw / item cancel; he's just mindgaming the community into thinking he didn't so MK doesn't get banned.

M2K's too pro. Except against ADHD.

 

[etecoon]

According to Ankoku's thread, MK has double Snake's points. I believe that's what he is referring to.

this.

I didn't say MK was twice as good as snake. I said he does twice as well as snake in tournament, which is verifiable fact.

snake isn't on the same level as MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i would look for character diversity at the top of the meta game. not just snake and diddy

olimar, pikachu, DDD, all become more viable along with many others such as peach.

with more snakes there will be more DDDs. with more wario's there will be more D3s. with more D3s there will be more pikachu's and olimars. with more olimars there will be more peaches. with more peach there will be more Rob. more rob means more.......

and it continues.

except for DK :/ DK will get wrecked even harder

DK is the only character to suffer more with MK gone than with MK in the game

Well doesn't DK get countered by MK too?

Your awesome and all KB but answer me this: If MK and Marth are peach's ONLY bad matchups,

Why has 1 peach NEVER(and if I missed one where she did, sorry, because they might be one?) placed top 10 in a national?

And I wont accept "O one got 13th or 17th" as an answer.

...wut

This is so stupid. For those who aren't yet sure about this: if your character is countered/hard countered by MK, then it is not tournament viable. Seeing how many people play MK... if your only bad matchup is Marth, oh well. You aren't gonna be facing 5 marths before finals.

 

[Allied]

Meh, I don't believe you.

I don't think Jason would purposely want to lose out on 1st place cash at Pound 4 if that's what you're implying. Or are you saying that Wyatt simply got better than Jason over time?

Wyatt simply got better you can check his past tournaments before he got good

he sucked ;] joking but he would always lose to m2k thats why i don't believe the m2k doesn't know the matchup because hes been slapping diddys for 2 years now all of the sudden "I dont know the matchup"

According to Ankoku's thread, MK has double Snake's points. I believe that's what he is referring to.

And with that kind of data, you really can't place Snake in the same league as MK, he is notches above the rest of the cast.

that thread really doesn't mean anything when in reality Snake and Diddy and other character ARE in the same league as MK i understand what you are saying though

this.

I didn't say MK was twice as good as snake. I said he does twice as well as snake in tournament, which is verifiable fact.

snake isn't on the same level as MK.

But he is...like proven.. like m2k can't really beat Ally unless he times him out.... like snake actually beats MKs.. alot

You can resort to data all you want i will resort to what i see in tournament

 

[MarKO X]

All of this is irrelevant.

If you were playing to win, you would switch to Metaknight. It's as easy as that.

Scrubs.

QFT

IMHO M2K actually knew how to instant-throw / item cancel; he's just mindgaming the community into thinking he didn't so MK doesn't get banned.

you mean the same way he sandbagged against Ally @ Apex?

 

[Allied]

QFT



you mean the same way he sandbagged against Ally @ Apex?

how'd you know ;]

 

[etecoon]

so you're saying that data taken from all over the place over a long period of time is nothing compared to your anecdotal evidence that gives a very narrow point of view? ok

and wtf M2K can beat ally without timing him out, they've been pretty much even. just because snake does ok in that particular matchup doesn't make him nearly as good of a character. snake loses to other characters and goes even with other characters, MK doesn't. snake adapts to stages badly by comparison to MK. it's not only about the snake vs MK head to head.

 

[solecalibur]

Wyatt simply got better you can check his past tournaments before he got good

he sucked ;] joking but he would always lose to m2k thats why i don't believe the m2k doesn't know the matchup because hes been slapping diddys for 2 years now all of the sudden "I dont know the matchup"

Why would he saying this? If you play someone from the start and keep playing them over and over again and then have a huge break (move to Ohio ) he isnt going to learn his new tricks / play style

 

[MarKO X]

how'd you know ;]

a Jerseynite told me.

 

[6Mizu]

Allied what's up with that triple post?
lol
But seriously MK need BAN.

 

[Allied]

so you're saying that data taken from all over the place over a long period of time is nothing compared to your anecdotal evidence that gives a very narrow point of view? ok

and wtf M2K can beat ally without timing him out, they've been pretty much even. just because snake does ok in that particular matchup doesn't make him nearly as good of a character. snake loses to other characters and goes even with other characters, MK doesn't. snake adapts to stages badly by comparison to MK. it's not only about the snake vs MK head to head.

Woah don't take it so seriously i'm just letting you know MK isn't the God of Gods and has a 100-0 matchup with superman bro

And snake keeps up with MK idk why u were saying 2:1 anything Mk doesn't tower over the high tiers if you think that you need to go to tournaments then

Why would he saying this? If you play someone from the start and keep playing them over and over again and then have a huge break (move to Ohio ) he isnt going to learn his new tricks / play style

Huge break? your making it seem like ADHD changed the way to play diddy in that short period of time and theres diddys over there in OHio too so no johns about no diddy practice

ADHD got better M2k is mad, People are mad because MK isn't banned yet
he was in my crew i know he got better lolz

 

[Dark.Pch]

Screw it, I'm gonna have to do it. After this, you can drop it and go back to your silly lil meta topic that never seems to die.

M@v, you wanna be for real, we gonna do it right now. Time to man up and get off bias crap.

Reason for Top Peach players not playing high enough as YOU want them too? It's not the character(s) fault. It's the players fault. You and alot of people always wanna put the blame on characters. But never on yourselfs. M2K loses to diddy, and tends to blame it on "Diddy is the best in the game and beats meta" No, it's M2K's darn fault he loses. He can't fight or stand diddy. Yet wont admit that to save Meta from being banned. Seems to me he will pull any weak excuse like I have been seeing from him lately to say Meta is not broken and needs to stay. I don't think he needs to be banned but come on dude, lets be for real here and not give me this crap. Reasons he says meta should say is straight stupid.

All Peach mains, (YES, ALL) Have not played Peach up to her full Power, screw being defensive, aggressive, fancy with all these techs to show off, impress people and feel like you are hawt **** at the end of the day. **** like that is not gonna help you win tournies with this character.

Kos-Mos Only knows one match up. And that is diddy. And he went and beat every diddy he touched. Including NL and ADHD. So this Bias crap about Peach not beating diddy or diddy having the advantage is done with. Next.

Dark.Pch- SNES I lost to M2K. Big whoop, its freaking M2k and a darn meta knight. Not impressed or anything to be ticked about. In losers I lost to reflex, a match up I never played before. Despite that I nearly beat him both games. MY FAULT STILL FOR LOSING THAT. If I had known that match up, i'm pretty sure I would have beaten him. I got that close not knowing what the hell to do in it. And ended up getting 13th. Lets go., My last tourny before a temp retirement I got 7th, gaullet, losing to a Marth and a player who is better than me (NinjaLink). This was in october. No job after that so could not go to tournies. Came back to play and was a rust bucket, and did horrible all the way till Pound 4. All the time I was there I got my hasshandled to me by nearly everyone. Tourny and friendles.No way in hell I was making it out in my condition and placing well.

Summer of 09 I nearly beat atomsk DDD (Vanz as well and dude does not even use Peach like that) and Inui's Meta knight. And took out one of our better falcos here (Bleachigo) Me losing to Inui and atomsk is MY FAULT I COULD HAVE BEATEN BUT DID NOT. The blame for losing is not my character. I never blame crap on my character. maybe if I was gannon or some ****, But for Peach, I have nothing to blame but my darn self.

Mikey Lenetia- Could have taken that one game off of DEHF. **** happens. He did have a good shot of winning that set. Also when he played Ally in pools at SNES, he nearly beat him a game. Character is not his fault for losing to ally and Falco. **** happens and Mikey (as well as every other peach alive) needs to step their **** up. Cause if we don't we here crap that people such as you and Omni spit out.

Excel is another peach who I think IMO, plays Peach nearly to the top of her game. Dude just needs to learn match ups and step his game out. But he is indeed a freaking beast.

So If you wanna play the reason Peach has not hitting the money in tournies, Blame the players for that. Don't blame the character. Same goes for every other character. People tend to but the blame on thier character to make themselves feel good. But never wanna admit they are the darn problem. thats being a straight coward. Man the hell up. Yes, even you high tier playes as well. Man the hell up.

Also one more thing I think Peach is not up there as she should be up until now. Peach players don't know how this game works. Peach is technical as hell. To ME, I say she is the next melee fox tech wise. It's important to know about frames. How all that **** works. with your attacks and the enemies attacks. That way you can know what you can do and not do. Know your options with your character. But also know it with the match up you are in.

Thats what I been doing since pound 4 after being so embarrassed for how I did. I decided to learn how this game works. And after doing my homework, I been doing **** with Peach that I have not been abusing for about 2 years now. And when I asked, Most Peach players reaction times are not that good or know about frames. I'm abusing this **** right now. Learning about other characters frames, hit stuns and hit boxes. I am just about finished with the high tiers. The next thing is to learn my match ups again. And I got NL for that. I learned alot of match ups again thanks to him. And when I have been playing with all the **** I studyed, I feel so much better as a Player. And I am not even at my summer groove yet. One more training session I am gonna do to learn match ups and then used what I studied in battle. Then I have a tournament this saturday. I play my cards right, I should place 5+. I am abuseing frame knowledge an all the stuff my character can do. I finally know how this game works.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tl;dr- Don't blame things on characters when it is the players fault. And don't speak of stuff you know nothing about. When ever I lose, it is my damm fault. I failed to step it up and be emo so I did not deserve to win. Done.

Now back to meta being bann worrthy or not. I'm gonna go study some more and learn how to beat the hell out of everyone on the A tier list.

 

[Remzi]

that thread really doesn't mean anything when in reality Snake and Diddy and other character ARE in the same league as MK i understand what you are saying though

Except that thread is completely relavent, and Snake and Diddy aren't anywhere near MK. Just because they have decent matchups against him does not mean that they are anywhere near as good of characters. The statistics don't lie my man, Snake's points and Diddy's points combined are well below MK's.

 

[etecoon]

And snake keeps up with MK idk why u were saying 2:1 anything Mk doesn't tower over the high tiers if you think that you need to go to tournaments then

S Rank «Uber» 43.23%
1 Meta Knight (179 top8, 126 top4, 72 top2, 75 wins, 452 total) - 4020.7
2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

MK literally gets nearly twice as many top placings as snake. this isn't debatable.

the last tournament I went to had 4 MK's in the top 10, dunno where you're at that apparently doesn't get dominated by MK but it's an exception.

 

[Allied]

Allied what's up with that triple post?
lol
But seriously MK need BAN.

CUZ BRO i break the law! XD

Mk doesn't need a ban you main rob of course you would say that!

 

[Allied]

Except that thread is completely relavent, and Snake and Diddy aren't anywhere near MK. Just because they have decent matchups against him does not mean that they are anywhere near as good of characters. The statistics don't lie my man, Snake's points and Diddy's points combined are well below MK's.

S Rank «Uber» 43.23%
1 Meta Knight (179 top8, 126 top4, 72 top2, 75 wins, 452 total) - 4020.7
2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

MK literally gets nearly twice as many top placings as snake. this isn't debatable.

Ok Ok thats why a diddy won pound 4 and a snake won genesis i don't understand you people

That thread =/= How good a character is

It shows that MK is overused and He wins tournaments I'm not denying that thread i'm saying it doesnt mean how good snake is or any other character

IT SHOWS TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION

jeez

edit - i live in NY/NJ hardest region so far so yeah.... and the Metaknights that win from here are in my crew LOL thanks and they have been playing MK before there was a tier list

edit 2 - i gotta go

 

[solecalibur]

Huge break? your making it seem like ADHD changed the way to play diddy in that short period of time and theres diddys over there in OHio too so no johns about no diddy practice

ADHD got better M2k is mad, People are mad because MK isn't banned yet
he was in my crew i know he got better lolz

A couple of mix ups can change the game and you saw how well ADHD read M2K he was freaken children's book to him, watch other matches m2k vs ADHD before he moved to OH, he more or less knows the personal MU it seems but since he left ADHD learned new mixups or his play style was different his game didn't have to advance in any way

 

[etecoon]

they have been playing MK before there was a tier list

don't see how this is relevant, there's nothing wrong with playing a character just because they're really good. if MK wasn't so good I wouldn't play him.

 

[Allied]

A couple of mix ups can change the game and you saw how well ADHD read M2K he was freaken children's book to him, watch other matches m2k vs ADHD before he moved to OH, he more or less knows the personal MU it seems but since he left ADHD learned new mixups or his play style was different his game didn't have to advance in any way

So what is this a john for M2k or metaknight i'm just curious i mean either way ADHD got better and learned it and beat the utter f*cking sh*t out of his MK

M2k needs to just adapt better with adhd and get better enough said

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actually, some anti-ban have switched over due to his numbers and RDK himself has said it clearly shows that he's dominating. He just says that he doesn't care.

Dominating =/= broken.

Different arguments.

?

It does so naturally. I only used tournaments from 150+ players. I don't care how popular your character is, it has to be **** good to get these numbers... especially in 100-149, 150+, AND 100+ with no variation in data.

No variations in the data that non-smokers get cardiovascular disease more then smokers.


aka, you phail statistics forever.

Hmm...Adumbrodeus, I've seen you ask the question countless times but have never seen anyone ask you.

How much is too much to you?

I've said it 50,000 times and wrote a massive blog post on it, RDK wants me to reference what I think is too much.


Invalidates over 50% of the cast independently. Check my blog for a full explanation of the terms and reasoning, as well as the proof required.


I don't even say it SHOULD be the final product, but we need a starting point, and everytime I say it, it gets ignored.

 

[M@v]

Well doesn't DK get countered by MK too?



...wut

This is so stupid. For those who aren't yet sure about this: if your character is countered/hard countered by MK, then it is not tournament viable. Seeing how many people play MK... if your only bad matchup is Marth, oh well. You aren't gonna be facing 5 marths before finals.

I honestly think Falco makes DK more unviable than mk does. That matchup freaking sucks for DK. I feel sorry for him

 

[solecalibur]

M2k needs to just adapt better with adhd

Your points confuse me but that is what I was getting at

 

[RDK]

Except that thread is completely relavent, and Snake and Diddy aren't anywhere near MK. Just because they have decent matchups against him does not mean that they are anywhere near as good of characters. The statistics don't lie my man, Snake's points and Diddy's points combined are well below MK's.

Tournament rankings =/= tier list rankings.

Just pointing that out in case people still didn't know.

 

[etecoon]

obviously

snake doesn't belong in MK's tier in any case, he's probably not even really better than diddy.

 

[Zankoku]

No variations in the data that non-smokers get cardiovascular disease more then smokers.


aka, you phail statistics forever.

This argument is only valid if you can determine a plausible side cause for Meta Knight to achieve such high numbers. Otherwise, you're only claiming possible red herring without actually giving any sort of support to it.

 

[M@v]

Don't forget the tounrney results thread isn't fully accurate. Not everyone reports tourneys.
I'm not saying mk isnt #1 still; he obivously is. But it probably isn't by a double margin.

 

[etecoon]

Don't forget the tounrney results thread isn't accurate. Not everyone reports tourneys.
I'm not saying mk isnt #1 still; he obivously is. But it probably isn't by a double margin.

this could be flipped to say that MK might be out performing snake by even more than that. it isn't conclusive, no doubt, but it's the best data we have as far as that goes.

 

[Espy Rose]

I honestly think Falco makes DK more unviable than mk does. That matchup freaking sucks for DK. I feel sorry for him

No you don't. If you did, you wouldn't go Falco vs. them.
lol

 

[Zankoku]

Don't forget the tounrney results thread isn't fully accurate. Not everyone reports tourneys.
I'm not saying mk isnt #1 still; he obivously is. But it probably isn't by a double margin.

Unreported tourneys that I eventually discovered have had a tendency to improve Meta Knight's gap over Snake, either directly by having Meta Knight winning it up, or indirectly by having little to no Snakes.

 

[RDK]

This argument is only valid if you can determine a plausible side cause for Meta Knight to achieve such high numbers. Otherwise, you're only claiming possible red herring without actually giving any sort of support to it.

But that's the point. You can't.

If Captain Falcon were to occupy the top 10 spots of every tournament for the next two weeks, does this mean that we can directly attribute his tournament placements to the character's spot on the tier list?

 

[etecoon]

If Captain Falcon were to occupy the top 10 spots of every tournament for the next two weeks, does this mean that we can directly attribute his tournament placements to the character's spot on the tier list?

this is a really pointless hypothetical, this will NEVER even come close to happening

 

[adumbrodeus]

This argument is only valid if you can determine a plausible side cause for Meta Knight to achieve such high numbers. Otherwise, you're only claiming possible red herring without actually giving any sort of support to it.

Not really, statistical validity requires adjustment for proportionality.


And I did, superior popularity. Considering the drastic differences in appearance of the characters in tournaments, very plausible.

But that's the point. You can't.

If Captain Falcon were to occupy the top 10 spots of every tournament for the next two weeks, does this mean that we can directly attribute his tournament placements to the character's spot on the tier list?

Actually incorrect, you can ALWAYS claim differences in population size, because it almost always causes a statistically significant difference.