Official Metaknight Discussion

[Seagull Joe]

I want Mk banned.

 

[HeroMystic]

Events-
-Everyone claims MK wins all his match-ups, that he is broken, and the best MK player is unstoppable.
- A really good player, player Y, picks up character X and shows that those original assumptions may not be true. (At the top level, the best players are what matters. Ratios are not supposed to deal with the lower levels.)
- This player, Player Y, beats many of the Best MKs consistently. Everyone of them he came against has a losing or possibly even record against him.
- Many players blame it on the MK players not knowing the match-up. "None of them ever played against character X" everyone says.
- Other's say, it is that player Y is "just too good."
- Player Y, still has trouble against other good player, who play his weaknesses, but continues doing well against MK.
- MK players learn the match-up and gains the advantage.
- Rinse and Repeat.

Fix'd, as evidenced from Snake, Olimar, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, and Falco.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I want MK banned.


...In Kirby Air Ride.

 

[Flayl]

HeroMystic: Might as well include that hype attempt from joel (at the time spadefox) for Bowser.

edit: All these random "I want him banned" posts are covering up my question fdohsgpsdhg

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yeah I want mk banned. He needs to be.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I propose that is hard banned w/ a little extra ban.

 

[Dragoomba]

I want MK banned.


...In Canvas Curse.



Oh, and Brawl.

 

[Chuee]

I want mk legal.
because hes a tiny bat.

 

[Sorto]

Fix'd, as evidenced from Snake, Olimar, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, and Falco.

People say Snake loses to MK. But I feel Allies results still say otherwise. Plus what is there record, because people act it's like Ally always loses, which I know is not true. I heard the last time he lost to M2K, it was match 5 and was because M2K ran the timer and stalled him out. If stalling is banned, its funny how that is considered a win for M2K.

 

[MarKO X]

People say Snake loses to MK. But I feel Allies results still say otherwise. Plus what is there record, because people act it's like Ally always loses, which I know is not true. I heard the last time he lost to M2K, it was match 5 and was because M2K ran the timer and stalled him out. If stalling is banned, its funny how that is considered a win for M2K.

I heard that Ally never actually approached M2K even though he was down a stock.

Regardless of what happened, in a timed fight of any sort, if you are winning, you are not obligated to approach the losing opponent. M2K simply played it smart.

Edit: wait, I lied. Boxing said hi.

Okay, in a timed video game fight, you are not obligated to approach if you are winning.

 

[Sorto]

I heard that Ally never actually approached M2K even though he was down a stock.

Regardless of what happened, in a timed fight of any sort, if you are winning, you are not obligated to approach the losing opponent. M2K simply played it smart.

You never have to approach if your in the lead, but if you scrooge, plank, and air camp, you really cant be reached and are pretty much stalling, due to your abuse of invincibility frames and unreachable distance from your opponent.

 

[Delvro]

I really want metaknight banned.

I want to see metaknight banned.

All the cool TOs from KY want him banned.

 

[Overswarm]

You never have to approach if your in the lead, but if you scrooge, plank, and air camp, you really cant be reached and are pretty much stalling, due to your abuse of invincibility frames and unreachable distance from your opponent.

Sounds like scrub talk to me.

Good luck trying to time me out like that, or any other good player.

 

[MarKO X]

You never have to approach if your in the lead, but if you scrooge, plank, and air camp, you really cant be reached and are pretty much stalling, due to your abuse of invincibility frames and unreachable distance from your opponent.

If he planked that hard, he would have beat the 50 grab limit and lost that match. Apparently he didn't.

If there were no specific rules against scrooging and he scrooged, so what?

Air camping might make MK unreachable to some characters (considering that this is low-g Brawl, I wouldn't even know who those characters are), but Snake has a projectile that goes up.

Like I said, M2K played it smart. The game knows no rules of honor.

 

[boss8]

Sounds like scrub talk to me.

Good luck trying to time me out like that, or any other good player.

i dont need to time u out...i will beat u legitly....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Events-
-Everyone claims MK wins all his match-ups, that he is broken, and the best MK player is unstoppable.

Such claims have not been made by pro-ban.
While they have made claim he wins all his matchups, they do not define him as broken or truly unstoppable.

- A really good player, player Y, picks up character X (character X is not MK) and shows that those original assumptions may not be true. (At the top level, the best players are what matters. Ratios are not supposed to deal with the lower levels.)

Moving on

- This player, Player Y, beats many of the Best MKs consistently. Everyone of them he came against has a losing or possibly even record against him.

continuing.

- Many players blame it on the MK players not knowing the match-up. "None of them ever played against character X" everyone says.

Okay reading on

- Other's say, it is that player Y is "just too good."

This is very well a possibility if such wins ar enot being replicated by other high level players on a consistent basis.

- Player Y, still has trouble against other good players, who play his weaknesses, but continues doing well against MK.

Which is where you admit that it is the palyer that is making up for it, because if the other player's are taking advantage of player Y's weaknesses, not player Y, it is a definite idea that it is the player being skilled enough to make up for the MU.

- MK having a counter or even match-up is disregarded as a possibility, because a less good player, player O, posts that he and his friends can't beat MK and that MK is "too good."

We don't care about those who suck.
Why address such a weak argument?

- A large portion of the community accepts Player O's outlook, because they are subpar players, as a majority often would be, and like to believe that reaching Player Y status is just impossible.
- Rinse and Repeat.

Thus we come to the conclusion of your post which is merely scornful similar to ADHD's thread.
Congratulations you are added nothing.



The issue is primarily determining the criteria under which a character is ban worthy. Smash is a very different game from other fighting games, yes it still falls under that genre, but the means and gameplay are different. Even more so when a stage can influence a matchup as well as the much more fee movement.

Adumbrodeus posted a criteria several times I believe (perhaps he can do so again?).
SO yeah, perhaps a criteria that is solid could be approved and then determine if MK fits the criteria.

 

[Allied]

I gave the anti-ban all the data they asked for last time, and now they're getting philosophical.

 

[Tien2500]

I want MK banned.


...In Kirby Air Ride.

MK is top tier in Air Ride.

I want MK banned.


...In Canvas Curse.



Oh, and Brawl.

MK is low tier in CC.

 

[Sorto]

Sounds like scrub talk to me.

Good luck trying to time me out like that, or any other good player.

Haha, same as what boss said. I don't need to time you out to beat you. I'll do it the legit way against both you and the actual good players.

 

[Chuee]

Hey look its Allied!

 

[Allied]

XD hi! :D decided to see whats going on in here

 

[Sorto]

Sounds like scrub talk to me.

Good luck trying to time me out like that, or any other good player.

And btw, you must believe those techniques are somewhat overpowered. Thats part of the reason alot of probanners want him banned.

 

[MarKO X]

nah, nah, one of you antiban pplz best respond to this:

If he planked that hard, he would have beat the 50 grab limit and lost that match. Apparently he didn't.

If there were no specific rules against scrooging and he scrooged, so what?

Air camping might make MK unreachable to some characters (considering that this is low-g Brawl, I wouldn't even know who those characters are), but Snake has a projectile that goes up.

Like I said, M2K played it smart. The game knows no rules of honor.

 

[Allied]

And btw, you must believe those techniques are somewhat overpowered. Thats part of the reason alot of probanners want him banned.

Its not like its generally overpowered its just a overly abusive stragedy that kills competitive fighting and rewards the "Runner" notice how i didn't say camper

Because 9/10 Camping is just a strat so you can zone / pick options better / approach etc


Also there are characters that cannot beat those options
more like half the cast

 

[Chuee]

Air camping might make MK unreachable to some characters (considering that this is low-g Brawl, I wouldn't even know who those characters are), but Snake has a projectile that goes up.

Air camping is Genesis old. Nobody times out matches doing that anymore. Scrooging is the new trend.

 

[Palpi]

Sounds like scrub talk to me.

Good luck trying to time me out like that, or any good player.

fix'd
10fix!!

 

[Allied]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarKO X View Post
If he planked that hard, he would have beat the 50 grab limit and lost that match. Apparently he didn't.

If there were no specific rules against scrooging and he scrooged, so what?

Air camping might make MK unreachable to some characters (considering that this is low-g Brawl, I wouldn't even know who those characters are), but Snake has a projectile that goes up.

Like I said, M2K played it smart. The game knows no rules of honor

What do you live in japan this is a competitive fighter when theres money on the line Are you going to pick full zelda in tournament in a state full of metaknights

No

M2k is a man of money and will do anything to do to win within the rules everyone has gotten so bent out of shape from scrooging but i guarentee maybe even something else more broken will be found out soon enough i mean that only means the metagame is expanding

and there will be rules soon i'm sure that can deal with this strat and air camping is beatable btw

Inb4 Plank vs puffster , puffster was ******** in the way he fought plank, plank was just the better player there but there are ways to beat airplanking

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

And btw, you must believe those techniques are somewhat overpowered. Thats part of the reason alot of probanners want him banned.

why would you assume he is part of that group?

 

[Overswarm]

i dont need to time u out...i will beat u legitly....

Not if you're losing to Infern, haha

 

[MarKO X]

What do you live in japan this is a competitive fighter when theres money on the line Are you going to pick full zelda in tournament in a state full of metaknights

No

lolwut?

M2k is a man of money and will do anything to do to win within the rules everyone has gotten so bent out of shape from scrooging but i guarentee maybe even something else more broken will be found out soon enough i mean that only means the metagame is expanding

and there will be rules soon i'm sure that can deal with this strat and air camping is beatable btw

Inb4 Plank vs puffster , puffster was ******** in the way he fought plank, plank was just the better player there but there are ways to beat airplanking

There is nothing wrong with M2K doing anything to win within the rules.
But if you're going to create rules to limit MK, is that not as scrubby and as n00b-catering as banning MK?

also, if these so called amazing strategies don't win tourneys (remember, ADHD won Pound4), why would scrooging get banned?

 

[Black Marf]

People say Snake loses to MK. But I feel Allies results still say otherwise. Plus what is there record, because people act it's like Ally always loses, which I know is not true. I heard the last time he lost to M2K, it was match 5 and was because M2K ran the timer and stalled him out. If stalling is banned, its funny how that is considered a win for M2K.

Scientific process.

Results need to be replicated.

From the data that's been presented, the results have not been replicated. No other Snake has demonstrated the success that Ally has. Therefore, Ally is an outlier. In simplistic terminology, he is simply too good.

This reasoning that "top of character metagame" = "best player of that character" really needs to stop, since it leads to scientifically dishonest answers.


Also, yay Allied making sense instead of trolling! =D

 

[Allied]

lolwut?



There is nothing wrong with M2K doing anything to win within the rules.
But if you're going to create rules to limit MK, is that not as scrubby and as n00b-catering as banning MK?

also, if these so called amazing strategies don't win tourneys (remember, ADHD won Pound4), why would scrooging get banned?

Haha the rules isn't just limiting MK there are other characters that can go under the stage too and scrooge (Wario,Pit etc)

MK is just the best at hence his spot on the tier list so its not limiting MK its basically limiting unfair gameplay because there are characters that can't do anything about that ruining competitive fighting

edit - Black marf i'm always trolling :D

 

[Spelt]

But I feel Allies results still say otherwise.

How many times do people have to say that ONE persons results do not decide matchup ratios.

 

[MarKO X]

Haha the rules isn't just limiting MK there are other characters that can go under the stage too and scrooge (Wario,Pit etc)

MK is just the best at hence his spot on the tier list so its not limiting MK its basically limiting unfair gameplay because there are characters that can't do anything about that ruining competitive fighting

If other characters can do it, but it's not as effective with those other characters, why should it get banned?

Just like how MK is the best character and there will be a best character, there will be a tactic that is better than others. What's with the double standard?

Oh, and once again, if it isn't winning tourneys (remember, ADHD won Pound 4), why would it get banned?

 

[Allied]

If other characters can do it, but it's not as effective with those other characters, why should it get banned?

Just like how MK is the best character and there will be a best character, there will be a character that can do things better than others. What's with the double standard?

Oh, and once again, if it isn't winning tourneys (remember, ADHD won Pound 4), why would it get banned?

I don't know dude why did planking get banned then

;]]

it fits the same criteria as scrooging why is that banned or limited in tournaments?

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't know dude why did planking get banned then

;]]

it fits the same criteria as scrooging why is that banned or limited in tournaments?

It was knee-jerked banned by TOs.

 

[MarKO X]

I don't know dude why did planking get banned then

;]]

it fits the same criteria as scrooging why is that banned or limited in tournaments?

what criteria?
there is nothing that officially bans planking in the SBR ruleset.
There was NO HARD EVIDENCE that in order to win it was plank or die.
TOs limited planking because "it's gay."

So if TOs are going to ban scrooging because "it's gay," then I have a LIST OF SH*T that TOs need to ban because "it's gay."

 

[Allied]

It was knee-jerked banned.

lol wut

10

 

[Chuee]

Not if you're losing to Infern, haha

You lose to Infern too, haha

 

[Allied]

what criteria?
there is nothing that officially bans planking in the SBR ruleset.
There was NO HARD EVIDENCE that in order to win it was plank or die.
TOs limited planking because "it's gay."

So if TOs are going to ban scrooging because "it's gay," then I have a LIST OF SH*T that TOs need to ban because "it's gay."

SBR ruleset is to be edited and formatted to a TO's liking it may be official but its only a guideline

If you notice in most competitive tournaments today Planking is either banned or limited and i think there was some evidence idk i remember seeing some stuff about it and i've definitally seen videos on it too because simply some characters don't have good enough options to cope with planking

I'm not disagreeing with you i'm just letting you know how it is i mean talk to your local TO at your nearby tournament and try to persuade him to do some minor changes

In every region you will notice different things are legal / banned with this new discovery i'm only sure scrooging with will be next on nationals only most likey