Official Metaknight Discussion

[HeroMystic]

lol wut

10

By that, I mean it was limited/banned without it shown as an overcentralization, or in other words, not shown at it's full potential.

Many people have posted on this discussion that if Planking wasn't banned as quickly as it was, Metaknight would be more dominant than he is now, maybe to the point where saying he's broken is actually legit.

Now the big question is, does Metaknight make planking an overpowered strategy, or is it "broken" for all characters?

If Planking is a legit strat, then that means Metaknight is the only reason why it's banned in the first place.

 

[MarKO X]

SBR ruleset is to be edited and formatted to a TO's liking it may be official but its only a guideline

If you notice in most competitive tournaments today Planking is either banned or limited and i think there was some evidence idk i remember seeing some stuff about it and i've definitally seen videos on it too because simply some characters don't have good enough options to cope with planking

so what. I only see it as dominance. the characters that can't deal with planking are probably unviable anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with you i'm just letting you know how it is i mean talk to your local TO at your nearby tournament and try to persuade him to do some minor changes

In every region you will notice different things are legal / banned with this new discovery i'm only sure scrooging with will be next on nationals only most likey

this is half the problem with brawl, more specifically with the whole ban MK issue. Most fighting games have a standard rule set. Brawl does not. It's one of the reasons why nothing conclusive can be determined in whether or not MK should be banned. Like, with other fighting games where the rules are practically the same no matter where you live, save how many matches are played in regular rounds, semis, and finals, Brawl has differing rules in differing regions that allow differing trends to occur. Everything from what stages to what tactics being banned can have even a minor impact on what's going on in a region, and those minor blips in systems are enough to throw people off. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't two nationals that have the exact same ruleset (stages included).

Personally, I don't mind the limit on planking, although I would deal it if the limit didn't exist. But what I don't like is the inconsistency in dealing with bans (banning characters vs. banning tactics when they should go under the same exact criteria) and in dealing with rules varying from region to region.

 

[Overswarm]

You lose to Infern too, haha

I have a pretty big winning record vs. him

 

[Allied]

By that, I mean it was limited/banned without it shown as an overcentralization, or in other words, not shown at it's full potential.

Many people have posted on this discussion that if Planking wasn't banned as quickly as it was, Metaknight would be more dominant than he is now, maybe to the point where saying he's broken is actually legit.

Now the big question is, does Metaknight make planking an overpowered strategy, or is it "broken" for all characters?

If Planking is a legit strat, then that means Metaknight is the only reason why it's banned in the first place.

I think i can fill in for everyone on this but it basically ruins competitive fighting of course it was banned immediately

Imagine of Sagat turned out he can Stall his shoryuken in the air and move and even though half the cast can reach him and punish it only with precision

guarentee SRK would ban that immediately as well because now its not a fighting game

I can understand planking -> recognize and move on to better options

but thats once again called camping

Planking but what i understand is -> Chilling on the edge to time the person out or put the other person at a bad position to gimp

which it has been proven half the cast cannot even STOP that let only the other half can potentially get gimped or combo'd if trying to deal with that also

Just because the metaknight was the first to use this stragedy doesn't mean he could be potentially broken with it Shiek can plank forever in melee No one is banning her......

Like i said before all other characters can do it just as well or even better for all we know than metaknight, metaknight just has the easiest use i guess which is why hes considered the best character XD

 

[Turbo Ether]

Someday I will teach Allied how to type.

 

[Allied]

so what. I only see it as dominance. the characters that can't deal with planking are probably unviable anyway.



this is half the problem with brawl, more specifically with the whole ban MK issue. Most fighting games have a standard rule set. Brawl does not. It's one of the reasons why nothing conclusive can be determined in whether or not MK should be banned. Like, with other fighting games where the rules are practically the same no matter where you live, save how many matches are played in regular rounds, semis, and finals, Brawl has differing rules in differing regions that allow differing trends to occur. Everything from what stages to what tactics being banned can have even a minor impact on what's going on in a region, and those minor blips in systems are enough to throw people off. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't two nationals that have the exact same ruleset (stages included).

Personally, I don't mind the limit on planking, although I would deal it if the limit didn't exist. But what I don't like is the inconsistency in dealing with bans (banning characters vs. banning tactics when they should go under the same exact criteria) and in dealing with rules varying from region to region.

I don't understand why you would want MK banned though if you only think the 6 tournament viable characters are the ones that should be attended too and don't care about the rest of the cast when a stragedy makes 65%+++ of the cast unviable now

and tbh i can't answer your second part because your right i don't know why things are like that

but i guarentee you its not going to change unless you talk to your local TO when you head to tournaments thats the best change you can do

 

[Allied]

Someday I will teach Allied how to type.

 

[MarKO X]

I don't understand why you would want MK banned though if you only think the 6 tournament viable characters are the ones that should be attended too and don't care about the rest of the cast when a stragedy makes 65%+++ of the cast unviable now

and tbh i can't answer your second part because your right i don't know why things are like that

but i guarentee you its not going to change unless you talk to your local TO when you head to tournaments thats the best change you can do

i'm actually neutral on this. i seem pro-ban because it makes sense, but the fact that MK doesn't win everything (which would easily constitute a ban), keeps me from making a definitive decision.

the other thing that keeps me from making a definitive decision is that while there was that graph that showed that tourney attendance is dwindling, both the alternative reasons for why tourney attendance may have dropped (i seen them somewhere, don't remember all of them, but I do remember the main one: recession), and the fact that Pound 4 had a great showing also keeps me from making a decision.

I hate inconsistencies. With a passion.

 

[RDK]

The evidence supports the pro-ban side better, if that means anything.

No....it doesn't. The evidence used by pro-ban is evidence for nothing except that MK is overused and he places well.

Exactly why this is ban-worthy still has yet to be determined. This is what people don't get; it's just a matter of agreeing and disagreeing on how the game should be played.

One side thinks it should be played competitively. The other side thinks otherwise.

That's about as basic as I can put it.

 

[RDK]

A question for the anti-ban: What would be the bare minimum number of non-MK players able to beat the top MK players for him not to be considered bannable? Is it just 1? Or should it depend on the number of top MK players?

I guess this ties into the criteria question from ages ago, but it's more relevant now because we have the numbers.

A question for pro-ban: what would be the bare minimum number of top spots a character must consistently occupy before said character is ban-worthy?

See, I can ask unanswerable questions too.

BTW Flayl I thought you were anti-ban?

Edit: Overswarm, in all fairness we're being no more philosophical than you. Those graphs and charts and tournament placements show nothing more than MK is dominating. I never agreed that dominating tournaments is worthy of a ban.

 

[RDK]

nah, nah, one of you antiban pplz best respond to this:

If he planked that hard, he would have beat the 50 grab limit and lost that match. Apparently he didn't.

If there were no specific rules against scrooging and he scrooged, so what?

Air camping might make MK unreachable to some characters (considering that this is low-g Brawl, I wouldn't even know who those characters are), but Snake has a projectile that goes up.

Like I said, M2K played it smart. The game knows no rules of honor.

I don't see what the problem is. Planking / scrooging rules are mad scrubby IMO.

Why is this relevant?

 

[Overswarm]

BTW Flayl I thought you were anti-ban?

Then he did research.

Edit: Overswarm, in all fairness we're being no more philosophical than you. Those graphs and charts and tournament placements show nothing more than MK is dominating. I never agreed that dominating tournaments is worthy of a ban.

You might not have, but the anti-ban of last time did. Go look at their old posts




and hey, your turn to respond to my post.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'm not reporting it but I demand that this thread be closed.

We need standard ban criteria to continue any type of productive discussion. I said b4 that we'll never be able to produce any type of ban criteria at this time. I respect RDK, OS, etc (except Allied) for the input they've provided. Unfortunately continuing gets us nowhere and this thread will 'cause oversocialization.

Edit: Give RDK a badge of honor for triple posting.

 

[Allied]

Mark0 if you want some anti-ban goodness i would say check out omni's lock thread down a little bit in the tactical forum

its a good read

edit - WTF GML i input a lot I had RDK's back during the ADHD thread i missed the last couple of threads because i was tournaments / busy

i agree what you are saying tho

ANTI-BAN WINS! (trollin)

 

[boss8]

Not if you're losing to Infern, haha

o snaps......i was more in a melee moof anywayz but no johns.....

o well i will just win next time...

on that note

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FCsyA9lyLQ&NR=1
2:07 til end

 

[RDK]

Then he did research.

Oh I see what you did thar.

You might not have, but the anti-ban of last time did. Go look at their old posts

Well then they were wrong. If you can find a specific post of mine saying that tournament dominance requires the ban-hammer then I'll concede your point.

and hey, your turn to respond to my post.

That monstrosity a few pages back? I suppose I should, if only for the lulz. IIRC there wasn't anything noteworthy in it.

 

[cutter]

I've been getting back into Smash after a somewhat large hiatus. Surprise, surprise, looks like one topic sure isn't going away.

Instead of *****ing about how the talk about the MK banning has surfaced again, I've just accepted the fact that this issue is going to be recursive and really not go away for an extended period of time.

I will post my thoughts in another post about my current state of the game later.

Someday I will teach Allied how to type.

As someone who is minoring in linguistics, I concur with this statement.

 

[Overswarm]

That monstrosity a few pages back? I suppose I should, if only for the lulz. IIRC there wasn't anything noteworthy in it.

I said the same thing when I read yours, but responded anyway.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I gave the anti-ban all the data they asked for last time, and now they're getting philosophical.

I was always saying the exact same thing, but nobody listened to me, and now my POV won over, so it's all good.

A question for the anti-ban: What would be the bare minimum number of non-MK players able to beat the top MK players for him not to be considered bannable? Is it just 1? Or should it depend on the number of top MK players?

I guess this ties into the criteria question from ages ago, but it's more relevant now because we have the numbers.

You're asking the wrong question, we're looking for MU dominance with data to back it up and a firm connection between picking MK and winning (the current data doesn't control for skill or number of MK players).

 

[RDK]

I said the same thing when I read yours, but responded anyway.

Touche'.

You'll get your response sir.

 

[BSP]

I'm not reporting it but I demand that this thread be closed.

We need standard ban criteria to continue any type of productive discussion. I said b4 that we'll never be able to produce any type of ban criteria at this time. I respect RDK, OS, etc (except Allied) for the input they've provided. Unfortunately continuing gets us nowhere and this thread will 'cause oversocialization.

Edit: Give RDK a badge of honor for triple posting.

I thought RDK posted some criteria a while back. I'm not sure if it was official or not, but I know one of the questions was whether or the character/tactic overcentralises. Since the definition of overcentralisation(or the point to whether or not something is overcentralising) is surely going to be subjective, I don't think we're going to get anywhere until some official stuff comes out.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think i can fill in for everyone on this but it basically ruins competitive fighting of course it was banned immediately

Imagine of Sagat turned out he can Stall his shoryuken in the air and move and even though half the cast can reach him and punish it only with precision

guarentee SRK would ban that immediately as well because now its not a fighting game

I can understand planking -> recognize and move on to better options

but thats once again called camping

Planking but what i understand is -> Chilling on the edge to time the person out or put the other person at a bad position to gimp

See, here's the problem with comparing this to SF4 (besides the fact that I just cannot fathom Sagat being able to moonwalk in the air). SF4 is a (awesome) straightfoward fighting game, but lets be realistic: There's a lot more variables in Brawl than it is in Street Fighter.

IIRC, Planking originally was only meant to put the victim in a terrible position. It was only later that it was adapted to stalling. This is besides the point though since it goes hand-in-hand.

From the way I see it: There's two versions of planking: "Planking" and "Ledge Camping". Ledge Camping is effectively avoiding a bad position due to poor options or putting your opponent in a bad position.

So now we have a legit version of planking, then an excessive "dishonorable" way of planking. We decide to draw the line with ledge-grab rules. 50 seems to be the standard. Player A decides to Plank and wins with 49 ledge grabs. Player B is pissed because he got "gayed out". Well, what do we do? He followed the rules, and he wasn't planking going by the criteria.

What's worse is when you add scrooging(how in the world was this term come up with anyway?), you effectively add extra ledge grabs to your planking because you're virtually untouchable while under the stage. This is what calls for time-outs. What do we do? Ban flying under the stage while you plank? But when does going under the stage become a legit strategy when you're trying to gain/keep an upperhand against the opponent?

So how exactly do we draw the line here? Ledge-grabbing is an effective and legit strategy in this game and is used by pretty much all characters. It doesn't kill the spirit of competitive gaming until it's used excessively. When/Where do we call it? Better yet, how can it be stopped? Ban grabbing the ledge at all?

Just because the metaknight was the first to use this stragedy doesn't mean he could be potentially broken with it Shiek can plank forever in melee No one is banning her......

Like i said before all other characters can do it just as well or even better for all we know than metaknight, metaknight just has the easiest use i guess which is why hes considered the best character XD

Emphasis on the bolded. We don't know because it was never given time to overcentralize. In a game with many variables knee-jerk reactions such as these causes this lack of data. As for Shiek, I'm not going to claim I have a vast melee knowledge because I don't, but I'm pretty confident in saying planking wasn't the epitome of her gameplay. Guess we'll have to see what the testers on the Plank thread finds out.

Spoiler

Amazing how this has nothing to do with Metaknight being banned.

 

[Overswarm]

You're asking the wrong question, we're looking for MU dominance with data to back it up and a firm connection between picking MK and winning (the current data doesn't control for skill or number of MK players).

He's asking the question for a reason; did you see his own research?

 

[Sorto]

How many times do people have to say that ONE persons results do not decide matchup ratios.

just because people keep saying it is true doesn't mean that they are right. My standard example is the earth being flat. When I think of what Pikachus can do, I would mostly consider what anther does. Because, what he is doin, is playing it right. Other players aren't playing it right. Proof that it can be done, is that he can do it and he is ONLY human.

While it is true that one person can be an outlier, it is also true that they are proof of possibility. Name one person who has flown, without the use of anything aside from there naked body. You can't, because people can't fly, its an impossibility. Name one person who has benched over 1000 pounds. They can be named and that is proof of possibility. It has been done on many occasions, but there was a time when it was done by only one person. Same goes for baseball records and stuff. When babe ruth made his homerun record, no one thought it could be beat. But it was beat on a few occasions.

A good mathematician will consider the outliers, as they are still part of the data. If the outliers are true outliers, there value will mean very little. ANd if it close to an impossibility, there results wont keep continuing.

Ally didn't get lucky and beat M2K, he continued to do it. Does everyone beat M2K? NO. Most MK players don't beat M2K!!! Do Snakes still do well in there regions? Yes they do. Do they still beat good MKs in there regions. Yes they do. Is that replication, yes it is. MK makes up 30% of the victories. But don't forget snake makes up 15%, that isn't shabby. Its proof of replication.

 

[adumbrodeus]

just because people keep saying it is true doesn't mean that they are right. My standard example is the earth being flat. When I think of what Pikachus can do, I would mostly consider what anther does. Because, what he is doin, is playing it right. Other players aren't playing it right. Proof that it can be done, is that he can do it and he is ONLY human.

While it is true that one person can be an outlier, it is also true that they are proof of possibility. Name one person who has flown, without the use of anything aside from there naked body. You can't, because people can't fly, its an impossibility. Name one person who has benched over 1000 pounds. They can be named and that is proof of possibility. It has been done on many occasions, but there was a time when it was done by only one person. Same goes for baseball records and stuff. When babe ruth made his homerun record, no one thought it could be beat. But it was beat on a few occasions.

A good mathematician will consider the outliers, as they are still part of the data. If the outliers are true outliers, there value will mean very little. ANd if it close to an impossibility, there results wont keep continuing.

Ally didn't get lucky and beat M2K, he continued to do it. Does everyone beat M2K? NO. Most MK players don't beat M2K!!! Do Snakes still do well in there regions? Yes they do. Do they still beat good MKs in there regions. Yes they do. Is that replication, yes it is. MK makes up 30% of the victories. But don't forget snake makes up 15%, that isn't shabby. Its proof of replication.

You're missing the point, we can't control for skill.


Proof of possibility, yes, he proves it's POSSIBLE to beat MKs with snake, but we already knew that. But it doesn't prove a ratio because we have no way of knowing whether it's snake's MU or just Ally.


Regardless, proof isn't necessary for something to be possible, proof is needed for it to be impossible. The fact that humans haven't flown with just the naked body isn't what proves it's impossible (at least on earth, in this reality, etc), what proves it is the biology.

 

[Sorto]

I stated awhile back. If people find scrooging to be a form of stalling, then it should be banned. As stalling is banned. How do you ban scrooging? It is easy.

Scrooging Ban- If any character goes under a specific stage twice, without recieving or dealing damage inbetween, then that character is in violation of scrooging. Scrooging will result in the same outcome as stalling.

 

[Flayl]

You're asking the wrong question, we're looking for MU dominance with data to back it up and a firm connection between picking MK and winning (the current data doesn't control for skill or number of MK players).

This post is kind of insulting, but I can't really blame you, my effort has already been buried deep in this thread.

Have a link.

 

[Black Marf]

No....it doesn't. The evidence used by pro-ban is evidence for nothing except that MK is overused and he places well.

I was anti-ban about a year ago. I read both arguments in the poll.

A year has passed. More of the pro-ban's predictions have come true than the anti-ban's. Now I'm undecided.

The evidence supports their case better (than last year) because more of the pro-ban's predictions have come true. This is practically fact.

A counter for MK has not been developed, and the game has centralized further around him.

My standard example is the earth being flat.

The fact that I'm even seeing this example makes me suspicious that you don't know the actual history behind this conclusion.

Evidence for the Earth being a sphere was gathered as far back as ancient Greece.

 

[Overswarm]

You'd have an argument if we didn't have about two years worth of data saying the exact opposite, sorto.

 

[Sorto]

You'd have an argument if we didn't have about two years worth of data saying the exact opposite, sorto.

Saying the exact opposite of what?

 

[adumbrodeus]

This post is kind of insulting, but I can't really blame you, my effort has already been buried deep in this thread.

Have a link.

Again, no control for skill and popularity.


Search my back threads (just the threads I made), I had an idea for dealing with this problem, didn't have enough time to work on it properly though. The important thing is averaging placement though.


(didn't mention the random sampling out of the group in it though).

 

[Sorto]

Evidence for the Earth being a sphere was gathered as far back as ancient Greece.

And still it wasnt believed by the majority for a long time. Isn't that funny?

 

[Sorto]

Again, no control for skill and popularity.


Search my back threads (just the threads I made), I had an idea for dealing with this problem, didn't have enough time to work on it properly though. The important thing is averaging placement though.


(didn't mention the random sampling out of the group in it though).

Matchup ratios often assume top pros to be at the same level. M2K skill= Ally Skill=ADHD skill.

My argument more so, was the match could be even or in snake or diddys favor. It could be and it is not completely unlikely. Not that it is a guarentee!!!!

 

[Flayl]

Again, no control for skill and popularity.


Search my back threads (just the threads I made), I had an idea for dealing with this problem, didn't have enough time to work on it properly though. The important thing is averaging placement though.


(didn't mention the random sampling out of the group in it though).

How on earth does my sampling not have a control for skill?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There is actually quite a few characters that can't deal with planking at all. Well if you can PS any attacks from the ledge you do have options to attack back but it's still very difficult for many characters to handle.

 

[Jack Kieser]

And still it wasnt believed by the majority for a long time. Isn't that funny?

Don't even try to bring that up; there are so many variables that went into the belief that the Earth was flat, it would make your head spin. I'd like to see you try to take on blind religious faith and the combined might of the body religious. Try studying some history, because at least pro-ban is trying to compile data and a reasonable argument, instead of just yelling in your face, "If you don't ban MK, God will throw you into the eternal pits of FIRE."

...that's exactly what I needed to read as I attempted to calm down and go to sleep... <_<

 

[Sorto]

I stated awhile back. If people find scrooging to be a form of stalling, then it should be banned. As stalling is banned. How do you ban scrooging? It is easy.

Scrooging Ban- If any character goes under a specific stage twice, without recieving or dealing damage inbetween, then that character is in violation of scrooging. Scrooging will result in the same outcome as stalling.

What do people think about this rule? Input would be nice.

 

[Black Marf]

And still it wasnt believed by the majority for a long time. Isn't that funny?

>> What? Have you actually studied ancient history?

I should clarify that a culture's understanding of whether or not the Earth was a sphere depended on that culture. Some cultures caught on far later than others. For this reason, discussing how well cultures understood the Earth being flat could take forever, and it in itself has nothing to do with this argument.


The question centers around whether or not Ally's results could be replicated. There hasn't been any statistical analysis done showing that this is the case. Therefore, I (and others) are inclined to assume that other Snake's have NOT replicated his success, therefore he is an outlier.

EDIT:

Matchup ratios often assume top pros to be at the same level. M2K skill= Ally Skill=ADHD skill.

I can tell you right now that this assumption is probably false, and therefore creates a bias in interpretation. This is especially so because the success of each of these players is further influenced by their knowledge of the matchup, and not just their individual skill.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Its like how Ally lost that friendly said a while back to Boss

The top of the metagame cannot be one person for a character to advance or the bad matchups of that character would be only the people that person loses to.

 

[Sorto]

Don't even try to bring that up; there are so many variables that went into the belief that the Earth was flat, it would make your head spin. I'd like to see you try to take on blind religious faith and the combined might of the body religious. Try studying some history, because at least pro-ban is trying to compile data and a reasonable argument, instead of just yelling in your face, "If you don't ban MK, God will throw you into the eternal pits of FIRE."

...that's exactly what I needed to read as I attempted to calm down and go to sleep... <_<

I did make arguments. They look like this.

Me: "Maybe you should double think banning MK, I mean Ally does really well against them, it might even be in snakes favor or even."
Proban: "Ally is too good."
Me: "Other good snakes are doing just fine in there regions too. Alot of them beat well known and good MKs."
Proban: "Trust me, everyone says snake doesn't win. It is just Ally, he is too good."
Me: "ADHD does very well against all the MK players to. He holds a winning record against like everyone. He even 3-0 M2K in one of the most recent, biggest brawl tournies."
Proban: "ADHD is too good too."
Me: "Is it that if you beat M2K that your just too good?"
Proban: "No they do the impossible, thats why they are too good."
Me: "But if they do it, then it can't be impossible."
Proban: "Yea, but No one else does it consistently."
Me: "What about DEHF, Logic, NinjaLink, Meep. I even heard that this good ZSS recently beat a top MK."
Proban: "Those MKs didn't know the match-up"