Official Metaknight Discussion

[ADHD]

You're all stupid, except for ankoku.

 

[Zankoku]

You can't SDI marth tippers or zelda's aerial sweetspots either though.

Yes, you can. Just not when you think you should be able to.

 

[Spelt]

Being stupid is the cool thing these days.

Yes, you can. Just not when you think you should be able to.

How so?

 

[Zankoku]

How so?

Both attacks have "cinematic" hitlag, which cannot be SDI'd. There's a little bit of real hitlag afterward, though, which you can SDI.

Well, I might be wrong. Brawl's "SDI multiplier" value is a new addition that wasn't an attack property in Melee.

 

[Inaphyt]

Again, define broken. I haven't and it hasn't really been part of my argument. The term "broken" can't be used loosely due to personal definition that stick to the word.

Over we don't care that you came from a broken household, lifes about moving on and getting over the past.

Metaknight must of came from a broken home because he's so broken the one thing he has to worry about right now is working on the diddy matchup which shouldn't be too hard really considering cps the fact meta can use bananas and once bananas are figured it'll be back to the old broken pure household.

Diddy has luigi metaknight marth falco even wario plenty of worries to work on.

Ban meta if the top metas went to every tournament metaknight would win them all, it's only because we have a nice community that don't all jump on the tyrant bandwagon that meta doesn't seem as dominant.

 

[Dekar173]

It's obviously just a giant parade of trolling.
there's no way 3-4 people (forgot how many were involved) would give up the chance to go "OMGOMGOMGOM I FOUND A NEW AT GIVE ME CREDIT!". especially from something as revolutionary as that.

you've never been to the diddy boards my friend

 

[Overswarm]

Throws are weird. You can't SDI them.

There were some in Melee you could (Jiggs forward throw?), I'm curious as to if any of the throws in Brawl work the same way.

 

[Remzi]

I'm pretty sure the only tipper marth has with no real hitlag is his fsmash, and it cannot be SDI'd at all.

 

[theunabletable]

Both attacks have "cinematic" hitlag, which cannot be SDI'd. There's a little bit of real hitlag afterward, though, which you can SDI.

Well, I might be wrong. Brawl's "SDI multiplier" value is a new addition that wasn't an attack property in Melee.

I am quite sure that PSA doesn't have any different kind of hitlag for the tippers or the death kick. I'm pretty sure it just has an increased hitlag amount, and 0 SDI.

I'm quite sure that you cannot SDI the tippers or death kick.

There were some in Melee you could (Jiggs forward throw?), I'm curious as to if any of the throws in Brawl work the same way.

I'm not sure.

It wouldn't take long to check in PSA, though (I don't have all my PSA stuff on this computer, though).

 

[adumbrodeus]

It seems to me, that the both of you do not understand the term RATIO. Hopefully, someone with a math background of at least HS level can come and help me explain this to you as clearly as possible.
1. Ratios are a description of odds. 40-60 is equal to 40%-60% or 4-6 or 2-3. That is all they mean.
2. In smash the odds/matchup ratios are derived from particular character advantages and disadvantages, that if weighed correctly would lead there character's results to mirror those original ratios and odds, as the games played with those particular characters approaches infinity (assuming the metagame and matchup didn't change)
3. The way you think Ratio's work, would actually give us nothing. Numbers with no meaning are qualitative, not quantitative, it becomes useless. If 60:40 doesn't mean 60%-40%, all I am lead to believe is that the matchup is in the 60's advantage because 60 is greater then 40. But I don't know how much greater, because the numbers are not allowed to correlate as a ratio in your description. Example: Q: How big was that building? A: It was 70. Q: 70 meters? Are you sure? N0 no, that can't be right. 70 what? What are your units? 70 compared to what? A: Just 70 in comparison to the empire state building. Like big. You know? Q: Do you mean 70% of the size of the empire state building? A: No I just mean the empire state building is 100 and that other building is 70. You know its smaller then it, but still big. But def not 70% the size. Q: Why didn't you just say 60 or 80 if it just has to be less then 100? A:Because it isn't 60 or 80, its 70.
3. No one will ever reach infinity, but as more matches are played, the characters results at top level should mirror the ratio more closely, as long as the ratio is correct.
4. Any correct ratio, should have its results closely mirror it, as the number of tests approaches infinity (smaller deviation as number of tests increases).
5. Assuming ADHD to be the top Diddy player and having most of his results against all MK players to be in his favor, people should then determine the ratio to be in his characters favor. ADHD's results verses ALL the MKs, shows his character' s win percentage to be over 50%. ADHD's results verses any ONE particular MK also show his character's win percentage to be over 50%. Had the match-up been a true 45:55, the odds of that happening become increasingly low, the more matches played. People just make excuses for some strange reason. But when you look at it simply, it is just math my friend.

Terms evolve, we kept the word ratio because it was used from the SF community, but that's changing, a lot of people call it MU number, or difficulty rating.


Regardless, it is quantitative... or intended to be, there really hasn't been a lot of work done on the theoretical underpinnings of the numbers, something which I intend on correcting... eventually.


As far as empirical evidence, there aren't enough players at the top of the metagame to be statistically significant, and we have no way to control for skill.

 

[Magus-Cie]

LOL if he is, he does a good job of pretending to be pro-ban.

Magus, sorry, here's my response to your post:



OS posted some sample tournament rankings earlier in the thread. Ultimately this is, as you said, arbitrary, and in the even that some people here still don't know why that's bad, I'll get to that in a moment.



Right. Which is why I'm baffled as to why people are baffled that the best character is doing....the best. Admittedly by a large margin, but still.

I'm wondering if pro-ban has answered for the similarities between MK and O. Sagat yet?

O. Sagat? I have been a long time player of Capcom vs SNK 2 and I know of the beast that Sagat is in that game, especially compared to other games. He is one of the best in that game, and as soon as I picked him up my game improved because of the vast advantage he has over most of the cast. I personally feel MK is like him in many ways in regards to his comperable advantages over the rest of the smash cast.

Anyway, on to subjective / whim / whatever-suits-my-fancy arguments by pro-ban.

We can basically dissolve the core pro-ban argument into one of these categories:

1) MK should be banned because I actually perceive him to break the criteria (I.E., has nothing to do with diversity / variance)

2) MK should be banned because I want to see more tournament diversity / variance (other characters should be given a chance; I want to be able to play whatever character I want with disregard to worrying about Metaknight)

3) MK should be banned because he's destroying the Smash scene, and in a few years there will be no one left to play except MK players.

All of these arguments are basically a deviation of "because I said so". They are arbitrary. They are also similar enough to be considered essentially the same argument. "MK is bad because of ________ [insert reason here]". In some way, shape, or form, he needs to go.

But the motivations and reasons why are, essentially, the same. People want to see other characters' metagames developed. But once again, where do we draw the line? If in Melee I had said "We should ban Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth because I want to see other characters' metagames developed", would anyone have taken me seriously?

If you were going to make a ban criteria, what would it be based on? Or rather, what qualities would a character need to have in order to make him bannable in your eyes? Would it basically be a copy and paste from the playing to win articles?

Is that a fair argument?

The problem is that is exactly what happens; nobody really takes this seriously. So it becomes grouped with various lesser arguments: vague tournament results ("He wins too much!" "He occupies too many top spots!"), pointing out the property gap in between MK and the rest of the cast, bringing up all the game patching we've had to do to make the character more fair (planking, IDC), etc. etc. Until finally we have a giant amalgamation of many small unconvincing arguments.

This is why MK will never be banned. The argument is not cohesive. There is no one thing we can point at and go "Yep, that should be banned. That is definitely broken. That overcentralizes; that breaks competition; that is alien to the competitive nature of the game". There's nothing like that with MK

The more exposure I have to fighting games, the more I realize how bad the over centralization is with MK though. I picked up Tatsunoko vs Capcom over the weekend and I am amazed at the balance of the game. Everyone is not equal, but everyone is pretty ****ed viable in that.

My 2 cents. Still waiting on OS for the reply to my last post.

I am finally attending my first tourney this weekend so I am going see first hand exactly how bad the potential MK problem is. Granted it is a small tourney, but still.

 

[Zankoku]

There were some in Melee you could (Jiggs forward throw?), I'm curious as to if any of the throws in Brawl work the same way.

Jigglypuff's fthrow was even weirder because it was the only one you could SDI.

 

[MK26]

Both attacks have "cinematic" hitlag, which cannot be SDI'd. There's a little bit of real hitlag afterward, though, which you can SDI.

Well, I might be wrong. Brawl's "SDI multiplier" value is a new addition that wasn't an attack property in Melee.

Nope, 0 SDI on those two, period. Proven both through frame advance and looking at Brawl's code.

 

[Z1GMA]

Go visit the diddy forums. A few diddy mains are stroking themselves right now claiming to be able to drop bananas when hit, but refuse to explain it to others.

Diddy-Mains and their secrecy among ATs.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I suck.

Shouldn't you be arguing with Goggles?

Arguing with Kid is like arguing with an individual whose rear was sewed shut and thus has to defecate from his mouth.

On topic: MK is an annoying character but perhaps anti-ban would do best if they tepped back and stopped bringing up ADHD as if he was evidence.

 

[Crow!]

Both attacks have "cinematic" hitlag, which cannot be SDI'd. There's a little bit of real hitlag afterward, though, which you can SDI.

Well, I might be wrong. Brawl's "SDI multiplier" value is a new addition that wasn't an attack property in Melee.

The first line there is inaccurate.

"Cinematic hitlag" is not anything special; in principle moves can have a hitlag which lasts any quantity of time (shiek's FTilt, for instance, lasts less than that of most moves), and the game does not handle them separately at all.

It just so happens that most moves that have longer hitlag than usual also happen to have a small (or even zero) SDI value.

Throws, on the other hand, follow some other paradigm altogether. I know less about them.

 

[Sosuke]

With a multitude of people, though?

Yes. I'm not sure what you consider to be "revolutionary" though.
I remember ruining that one Dash attack -> Dair on the ledge thread. =P


Also, a poem or something.

 

[Boxob.]

MK's the best character in the game, he's going to have the best results. He's really good, but until everyone who uses metaknight the 'right way' wins 100% of the time, he shouldn't be banned.

 

[Turbo Ether]

He's really good, but until everyone who uses metaknight the 'right way' wins 100% of the time, he shouldn't be banned.

It's acceptable to ban him when he wins 100% of the time? What about 99%?

 

[Spelt]

Yes. I'm not sure what you consider to be "revolutionary" though.
I remember ruining that one Dash attack -> Dair on the ledge thread. =P

that was being kept secret by a close-knit group of RL friends before they could get a video up explaining it in detail though.
that's kind of different.
I guess i was using "revolutionary" a bit too loosely, just meant that it would change diddy's game, and the way you would fight against him.
if it's a universal technique as ninjalink stated, then it wouldn't just benefit diddy, imo.

 

[Sosuke]

Someone mentioned that tech in the TL back room half a year before that thread was made. "Secret techs" that only groups of people know about are sorta common.

 

[Kaffei]

Over we don't care that you came from a broken household, lifes about moving on and getting over the past.

Metaknight must of came from a broken home because he's so broken the one thing he has to worry about right now is working on the diddy matchup which shouldn't be too hard really considering cps the fact meta can use bananas and once bananas are figured it'll be back to the old broken pure household.

Diddy has luigi metaknight marth falco even wario plenty of worries to work on.

Ban meta if the top metas went to every tournament metaknight would win them all, it's only because we have a nice community that don't all jump on the tyrant bandwagon that meta doesn't seem as dominant.

I don't see how those factors make him "broken". Care to explain?

 

[MarKO X]

SO...

has anything new developed in this ban MK discussion? Or is it the same ol' story over and over and over again?

 

[Kaffei]

SO...

has anything new developed in this ban MK discussion? Or is it the same ol' story over and over and over again?

Same old story.

 

[Overswarm]

SO...

has anything new developed in this ban MK discussion? Or is it the same ol' story over and over and over again?

I gave the anti-ban all the data they asked for last time, and now they're getting philosophical.

 

[Black Marf]

SO...

has anything new developed in this ban MK discussion? Or is it the same ol' story over and over and over again?

The evidence supports the pro-ban side better, if that means anything.

Other than that, arguments haven't changed for... a long time.

MK's the best character in the game, he's going to have the best results. He's really good, but until everyone who uses metaknight the 'right way' wins 100% of the time, he shouldn't be banned.

The hell is a "right way"? Brawl is at least a good enough game that proper reads help more than character (unless we're talking low tier). The game isn't designed in such a way that a character will win 100% of the time (when talking about higher tiers).

This does not mean that the game is balanced by any means, nor does it mean that characters can't be broken. Defining "broken" as "unbeatable" is a rather limited definition. Broken is just an unnecessarily uphill battle caused by abuse of game mechanics.

 

[MarKO X]

O. Sagat? I have been a long time player of Capcom vs SNK 2 and I know of the beast that Sagat is in that game, especially compared to other games. He is one of the best in that game, and as soon as I picked him up my game improved because of the vast advantage he has over most of the cast. I personally feel MK is like him in many ways in regards to his comperable advantages over the rest of the smash cast.

O.Sagat refers to Old Sagat from Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.
As far as CvS2 is concerned, A-groove Bison, A-Groove Blanka, and A-Groove Sakura are all better than Sagat. But that's it.

The more exposure I have to fighting games, the more I realize how bad the over centralization is with MK though. I picked up Tatsunoko vs Capcom over the weekend and I am amazed at the balance of the game. Everyone is not equal, but everyone is pretty ****ed viable in that.

US Version of TvC does have better balance compared to the Japanese Version. I don't play or follow the game because even though it's ok, I just don't like it, but I believe Karas was like the best character in that game. Eh, who cares. MvC1 for life.

Yes, 1

The hell is a "right way"? Brawl is at least a good enough game that proper reads help more than character (unless we're talking low tier). The game isn't designed in such a way that a character will win 100% of the time (when talking about higher tiers).

This does not mean that the game is balanced by any means, nor does it mean that characters can't be broken. Defining "broken" as "unbeatable" is a rather limited definition. Broken is just an unnecessarily uphill battle caused by abuse of game mechanics.

The right way is the way that people are trying to arbitrarily limit. (full blown air camping, grabbing the ledge 49 times, and scrooging) If people stopped playing MK with honor (which, if you know anything about the actual character MetaKnight, is quote ironic), he'd might hard counter Brawl. Might.

Of course, no one knows that for sure.

 

[MarKO X]

I gave the anti-ban all the data they asked for last time, and now they're getting philosophical.

new data from that with which I already saw in your other thread?
if this is a double post, i'm sorry, i'm just too tired to care.

 

[Overswarm]

new data from that with which I already saw in your other thread?
if this is a double post, i'm sorry, i'm just too tired to care.

I posted a second batch somewhere in this thread. It too was mostly ignored.

Last time they said "MK isn't dominant at all, it's just blah blah blah"

so I made bunches of charts and showed them how dominant he was from the start of Brawl to now, showing a steady increase and an obvious trend

Then they all lit corn cob pipes and started a fire in their fireplace, leaned back in their chair, and said "Well what IS dominance, really?"

 

[MarKO X]

rofl.
ok, i'll search for it eventually.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Next up on the MK agenda: Figuring out how to deal with Diddy, like how they figured out how to deal with Snake.

 

[Spelt]

Dominance is the male in a romantic relationship.

 

[Overswarm]

Next up on the MK agenda: Figuring out how to deal with Diddy, like how they figured out how to deal with Snake.

Way ahead of you. Not looking good for the monkey. I know their secrets.

 

[Flayl]

A question for the anti-ban: What would be the bare minimum number of non-MK players able to beat the top MK players for him not to be considered bannable? Is it just 1? Or should it depend on the number of top MK players?

I guess this ties into the criteria question from ages ago, but it's more relevant now because we have the numbers.

 

[Jem.]

I hate how the official metaknight discussion was just an alias for "give reasons and ignore the arguements on why metaknight should/should not be banned"

 

[Kaffei]

Way ahead of you. Not looking good for the monkey. I know their secrets.

Are these "secrets" going to be revealed to the public eventually?

 

[Dooms]

I really want metaknight banned.

 

[Kaffei]

I really want metaknight banned.

Why do you really want MK banned

 

[Sorto]

Events-
-Everyone claims MK wins all his match-ups, that he is broken, and the best MK player is unstoppable.
- A really good player, player Y, picks up character X (character X is not MK) and shows that those original assumptions may not be true. (At the top level, the best players are what matters. Ratios are not supposed to deal with the lower levels.)
- This player, Player Y, beats many of the Best MKs consistently. Everyone of them he came against has a losing or possibly even record against him.
- Many players blame it on the MK players not knowing the match-up. "None of them ever played against character X" everyone says.
- Other's say, it is that player Y is "just too good."
- Player Y, still has trouble against other good players, who play his weaknesses, but continues doing well against MK.
- MK having a counter or even match-up is disregarded as a possibility, because a less good player, player O, posts that he and his friends can't beat MK and that MK is "too good."
- A large portion of the community accepts Player O's outlook, because they are subpar players, as a majority often would be, and like to believe that reaching Player Y status is just impossible.
- Rinse and Repeat.

 

[Overswarm]

Are these "secrets" going to be revealed to the public eventually?

Yes. I'm currently compilling data. You'll hear soon.