Official Metaknight Discussion

[ShadowLink84]

Anytime I see an MK gliding I run out and proceed to Fair them. Yep yep.

 

[Espy Rose]

You're Sonic.
There's no need to scrooge a Sonic when MK outright obliterates you without it.

 

[etecoon]

You're Sonic.
There's no need to scrooge a Sonic when MK outright obliterates you without it.

unless you're overswarm or inui anyway : )

 

[Anonano]

RDK, I think your main issue here is that almost everything the pro-ban is saying is an inductive argument. I understand; we would all like them to be able to lay out a clear, undebatable reason for banning MK. Something that can't be argued about, unlike questionable graphs of tourney attendance and dominance. A deductive argument is always better than an inductive argument. Having one cold, hard fact to use to argue that MK should be banned is always better than having fifty graphs and a hundred statistics and saying "from these statistics, it is a 76% chance that MK is causing all of these serious problems and should be banned."
If I thought that it was possible for the probanners to come up with a number or definition for dominance, attendance, and their effects on the community and why it means MK should be banned, I would've brought it up pages ago. But I think the scope of such an undertaking is too large; it is somewhat unreasonable to ask them for this at this point, given the evidence they have presented.

You ought to focus less on forcing them to make up arbitrary absolutes and more on simply debasing their evidences or showing how irrelevant they are. For instance, you could delve further into why tournament attendance really has absolutely nothing to do with MK's so-called "domination," and why that domination doesn't actually exist--or make a difference-- in the first place.

Hope I didn't come across cocky or rude or anything. I'm merely attempting to point you in a better direction for tackling their arguments.

 

[Overswarm]

unless you're overswarm or inui anyway : )

Haha... Shugo beating me and that getting publicized was actually a financial blessing. Lots of random sonics have since MMed me and I have a 100% win rate against them all XD

 

[Sorto]

Haha... Shugo beating me and that getting publicized was actually a financial blessing. Lots of random sonics have since MMed me and I have a 100% win rate against them all XD

too bad if you include shugo in your sonic record, it can never ever be exactly 100 percent hah

 

[Espy Rose]

too bad if you include shugo in your sonic record, it can never ever be exactly 100 percent hah

Ultimate Razer, Haze, and several others have also lost to Sonic.
That's a wound that will NEVER go away.

It's just that OS and Inui's cases are the most hilarious.

 

[rathy Aro]

<-Sheik main that always gets 3-stocked. =D

It seems to me, that the both of you do not understand the term RATIO. Hopefully, someone with a math background of at least HS level can come and help me explain this to you as clearly as possible.
1. Ratios are a description of odds. 40-60 is equal to 40%-60% or 4-6 or 2-3. That is all they mean.
2. In smash the odds/matchup ratios are derived from particular character advantages and disadvantages, that if weighed correctly would lead there character's results to mirror those original ratios and odds, as the games played with those particular characters approaches infinity (assuming the metagame and matchup didn't change)
3. The way you think Ratio's work, would actually give us nothing. Numbers with no meaning are qualitative, not quantitative, it becomes useless. If 60:40 doesn't mean 60%-40%, all I am lead to believe is that the matchup is in the 60's advantage because 60 is greater then 40. But I don't know how much greater, because the numbers are not allowed to correlate as a ratio in your description. Example: Q: How big was that building? A: It was 70. Q: 70 meters? Are you sure? N0 no, that can't be right. 70 what? What are your units? 70 compared to what? A: Just 70 in comparison to the empire state building. Like big. You know? Q: Do you mean 70% of the size of the empire state building? A: No I just mean the empire state building is 100 and that other building is 70. You know its smaller then it, but still big. But def not 70% the size. Q: Why didn't you just say 60 or 80 if it just has to be less then 100? A:Because it isn't 60 or 80, its 70.
3. No one will ever reach infinity, but as more matches are played, the characters results at top level should mirror the ratio more closely, as long as the ratio is correct.
4. Any correct ratio, should have its results closely mirror it, as the number of tests approaches infinity (smaller deviation as number of tests increases).
5. Assuming ADHD to be the top Diddy player and having most of his results against all MK players to be in his favor, people should then determine the ratio to be in his characters favor. ADHD's results verses ALL the MKs, shows his character' s win percentage to be over 50%. ADHD's results verses any ONE particular MK also show his character's win percentage to be over 50%. Had the match-up been a true 45:55, the odds of that happening become increasingly low, the more matches played. People just make excuses for some strange reason. But when you look at it simply, it is just math my friend.

Like I said earlier they aren't real ratios and should be taken as words with specific meanings, so I understand what a true ratio is, I'm just not refering to it. As I just said the ratio names have meanings, just not that ones you suggest they should. 60:40 is a solid advantage, 70:30 is a very strong advantage that requires the losing opponent to significantly out play the opponent to be won, 80:20 is more or less unwinnable if played correctly, but there are still options there, and past that means something like you have no options to win.

This is more useful to what people want to know about a matchup, because true ratios would be harder to ascertain.


I really doubt that an mk-banned tourney would have low attendance. =/

 

[Overswarm]

MK banned tourneys haven't shown much in the way of low attendance at all; many of them had temporary boosts from people excited about the concept. This is irrelevant though, as we don't have long term data.

 

[rathy Aro]

Some TO that feels really passionately about banning mk should run more of those tounies. If only there was someone.... =P

 

[Overswarm]

I run circuits, not individual tournaments; I refuse to force an MK ban on all my TOs. I'd require 100% approval for this to occur.

 

[Sorto]

<-Sheik main that always gets 3-stocked. =D


Like I said earlier they aren't real ratios and should be taken as words with specific meanings, so I understand what a true ratio is, I'm just not refering to it. As I just said the ratio names have meanings, just not that ones you suggest they should. 60:40 is a solid advantage, 70:30 is a very strong advantage that requires the losing opponent to significantly out play the opponent to be won, 80:20 is more or less unwinnable if played correctly, but there are still options there, and past that means something like you have no options to win.

This is more useful to what people want to know about a matchup, because true ratios would be harder to ascertain.


I really doubt that an mk-banned tourney would have low attendance. =/

yea now i know who you are. but if those ratios dont have a meaning besides qualitative type, they lose alot of usefulness. If you tell me something is huge, it tells me nothin. A building is huge, but so is the universe. The universe is huger. if people actually looked for real statistics then just sticking to bad opinion based results, then they might mean something. look at my point 5. Look at adhds results. can u say with certainty that mk does not have a counter. If you can not say it with certainty then perhaps it is too soon to ban him. See my point?

 

[Juushichi]

Not taking anything away from ADHD, since he's one hell of a player... but hasn't it been said that Diddy boards were keeping information on how to fight Diddy away?

Also, M2K (as OS said before) wasn't even aware that you could catch bananas (I vaguely remember drifting around when OS and AlphaZealot were talking to him) and do various things with them and still does okay against ADHD. Partially ignoring the GROSS oversight on the part of the player, this in and of itself should speak volumes.

 

[dainbramage]

Can u say with certainty that mk does not have a counter. If you can not say it with certainty then perhaps it is too soon to ban him. See my point?

Coming from the guy who claims to have a good maths background, 'certainty' is a VERY heavy word to use.

 

[rathy Aro]

I see your point, but we have roughly concrete meanings for matchups at this point. We've been playing smash and naming matchups for ever 10 years now. People can generally look back to melee and say fox vs marth is 50:50 or sheik vs marth is 60:40 (don't know if that's actually right) and know what we mean by that. Its sort of like how I can understand the english you speak despite every work not having a numerical value. I learned what the words meant from experiencing/seeing their meanings related to the actual words themselves.

Also in the current metagame, MK has no counter. A counter is like 65:35 or worse and if you don't know what that means, go look at matchups that are 65:35.

 

[Juushichi]

I learned what the words meant from experiencing/seeing their meanings related to the actual words themselves.

Unrelated, but that is exactly what linguists call word arbitrariness.

 

[RDK]

Not taking anything away from ADHD, since he's one hell of a player... but hasn't it been said that Diddy boards were keeping information on how to fight Diddy away?

Also, M2K (as OS said before) wasn't even aware that you could catch bananas (I vaguely remember drifting around when OS and AlphaZealot were talking to him) and do various things with them and still does okay against ADHD. Partially ignoring the GROSS oversight on the part of the player, this in and of itself should speak volumes.

The Diddy stuff has been known since like 2008. M2K not knowing it just means he was unprepared for the matchup.

You ought to focus less on forcing them to make up arbitrary absolutes and more on simply debasing their evidences or showing how irrelevant they are. For instance, you could delve further into why tournament attendance really has absolutely nothing to do with MK's so-called "domination," and why that domination doesn't actually exist--or make a difference-- in the first place.

Unfortunately I can't show that without going to each and every tournament and randomly sampling them with survey questions on why they still attend tournaments.

And even then they could be lying.

Fortuantely, even if there was a correlation between tournament attendance and Metaknight, that still doesn't prove causation. So it's irrelevant either way.

Edit: OS mentioning long-term tournament data reminded me of something I keep wanting to say.

To all these people who are advocating a single national-level tournament with MK banned.....that's silly. Even OS is of the opinion that a single incident isn't proof of anything.

We would need many tournaments where MK is banned before we start to see any major effect on the metagame.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't get this stuff about keeping information... If you fight a Diddy consistently shouldn't you be able to learn from that how to beat him? Once they use a tactic in a match isn't the secret out?

 

[rathy Aro]

Apparently not to m2k. XD According to OS he couldn't z-catch, etc, until JUST NOW. That's pretty ridiculous considering how frequently he fights good diddies.

edit: also, just because you see someone do something doesn't mean you can replicate it.

 

[Sorto]

A counter consists of any matchup where one character has over 50 and the other character has under 50 on a matchup ratio, no matter how small or large. Sure 55:45 isnt much of a counter, but it is considered by smash to be a soft counter. A counter means that one character has favor over another. Even your thinking of matchup results cant argue with that. Snake has counters even though his worst one is 55:45 or maybe 60:40.

ADHD beats every single MK more then they beat him. Its not just M2k, its every single one. That leads me to believe that the matchup may be in diddys favor or even. And from the results shown at tournaments containing ADHD, the chance that Diddy can soft counter MK seems very possible to me.

Another good point was brought up, about the word certainty. I did use it very very loosely. Very few things are actually 100% certain. So let me rephrase, can you then say with a high degree of certainty that MK will have no counters or even matchups in the future, using as reference the current metagame and tourny results? How certain is a high degree, well, percents wont help me here to much, so instead think to yourself, the price of being wrong as having to pay 100 dollars to every person who played MK and won 1st in a tourny (since your ban would hurt them most directly), thus far in brawl history. Could you be that certain. Because I am that certain that Ganon won't be top tier in brawl unless new things in brawl become banned or the top tier includes alot more people. So please believe me, it is possible to be that certain.

 

[etecoon]

some stuff like that you wouldn't pick up on from just playing, but still, it's not like the information isn't out there. it's pretty surprising that the best player in the game just now learned instant throwing

edit: this is at rathy, I got ninja'd

 

[rathy Aro]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Counter_(match-up)
Counter implies hard counter. Either way MK has no soft counters either or in otherwords he has no disadvantageous matchups. At least not in the current metagame.

I can't believe you're trying to base a matchup off od ADHD despite the many, MANY reasons why you can't do that stated in THIS thread. I'm not even going to argue that. >.>

edit: People would be suprised at how little pros research and practice this game. Only the people who want to get good do that stuff. If you're already good, there's no need.

 

[Sorto]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Counter_(match-up)
Counter implies hard counter. Either way MK has no soft counters either or in otherwords he has no disadvantageous matchups. At least not in the current metagame.

I can't believe you're trying to base a matchup off od ADHD despite the many, MANY reasons why you can't do that stated in THIS thread. I'm not even going to argue that. >.>

I disagree with your feelings about what makes a counter.
But for simplicity I will use soft counter.
Just b/c the ratio says MK has no soft counters/ even matchups, does that mean it must be true?
People thought the earth was flat for a long time. I guess theres no chance they couldda been wrong either.
Thing cant be changed if people say, "well, I read it over there, so it must be true."
Why don't you trust what is happening in the real world over some statistic someone made up based on no science, fake scenarios, and just the believe that diddy cant win b/c Mk is number 1.
ADHD is proof!
1 person can be where proof starts.
Realizing the world was round, wasn't the belief of many, it started with the few.

 

[rathy Aro]

Everything you said just means that he might have a bad matchup, but its FAR from a proof, but again, I'm not going to argue with you about that, because every point I can make has been made. Its like arguing whether MK's dair is good or not, if the person doesn't know it already, you probably won't convince them. =/

 

[Nanaki]

I disagree with your feelings about what makes a counter.
But for simplicity I will use soft counter.
Just b/c the ratio says MK has no soft counters/ even matchups, does that mean it must be true?
People thought the earth was flat for a long time. I guess theres no chance they couldda been wrong either.
Thing cant be changed if people say, "well, I read it over there, so it must be true."
Why don't you trust what is happening in the real world over some statistic someone made up based on no science, fake scenarios, and just the believe that diddy cant win b/c Mk is number 1.
ADHD is proof!
1 person can be where proof starts.
Realizing the world was round, wasn't the belief of many, it started with the few.

...

...

wow.

ADHD is not proof of a counter, he's proof that Diddy can compete. He's not even proof that Diddy's a soft counter. He's proof that Diddy is capable of winning against MK, and that ADHD is absurdly good at Brawl.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't get this stuff about keeping information... If you fight a Diddy consistently shouldn't you be able to learn from that how to beat him? Once they use a tactic in a match isn't the secret out?

Go visit the diddy forums. A few diddy mains are stroking themselves right now claiming to be able to drop bananas when hit, but refuse to explain it to others.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're Sonic.
There's no need to scrooge a Sonic when MK outright obliterates you without it.

You suck so who cares?

 

[Spelt]

Go visit the diddy forums. A few diddy mains are stroking themselves right now claiming to be able to drop bananas when hit, but refuse to explain it to others.

It's obviously just a giant parade of trolling.
there's no way 3-4 people (forgot how many were involved) would give up the chance to go "OMGOMGOMGOM I FOUND A NEW AT GIVE ME CREDIT!". especially from something as revolutionary as that.

 

[mangojuice]

I was wondering if someone could answer a couple noobish quick question for me. I bought a Wii just for Smash about a month ago. But anyway.

1) Are infinites (grabs etc) are product of design or just glitches?
2) Why is banning infinites not done - especially if most of them are character specific? I'm thinking in the case like Lucas who pretty much is rendered tournament unviable due to Marth. I'm NOT trying to start another MK type discussion. I'm just a total newb and want to know. I'm posting here, also because something like this doesn't warrant it's own thread.

Thanks.

 

[CRASHiC]

Go visit the diddy forums. A few diddy mains are stroking themselves right now claiming to be able to drop bananas when hit, but refuse to explain it to others.

That would be amazing:
in a game with combos.

1) Are infinites (grabs etc) are product of design or just glitches?

It can be either. DDDs chaingrab is either intentional or the biggest over look ever. There is a 2nd hitbox that is a puff of air that keeps the enemy a float letting him chain grab them.

 

[Spelt]

D3's infinites against a few characters have been banned. not in the official ruleset but it's become a common practice with tournaments today.

That would be amazing:
in a game with combos.

it would pretty much nullify any chain grab that effects diddy.

 

[rathy Aro]

1) Probably not, but who could ever know?
2) Some people believe (to know who I'm refering to you can look at thread on originalist vs constructionalist by overswarm) that you shouldn't ban something unless it breaks the game. Character specific infinites do not break the game, they're just gay. =/

 

[CRASHiC]

it would pretty much nullify any chain grab that effects diddy.

Grab has far different qualities than being hit. I doubt its the same thing.

 

[RDK]

It's obviously just a giant parade of trolling.
there's no way 3-4 people (forgot how many were involved) would give up the chance to go "OMGOMGOMGOM I FOUND A NEW AT GIVE ME CREDIT!". especially from something as revolutionary as that.

This. All it takes is one person who snitches on how to do the technique, or just simply using it in a match and having one person watch your controller, and then everybody knows about it. Nobody in their right mind would "hide" that big of a technique.

First person to post it would probably name it after themselves, or something equally ********.

I was wondering if someone could answer a couple noobish quick question for me. I bought a Wii just for Smash about a month ago. But anyway.

Yikes. Not a good choice.

 

[Spelt]

Grab has far different qualities than being hit. I doubt its the same thing.

A throw is actually a hit though...? :/
and don't pummels count as actual hits too?

 

[Zankoku]

Throws are weird. You can't SDI them.

 

[Sosuke]

there's no way 3-4 people (forgot how many were involved) would give up the chance to go "OMGOMGOMGOM I FOUND A NEW AT GIVE ME CREDIT!". especially from something as revolutionary as that.

You serious? This happens a lot.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic sucks so who cares?

Fixed.

Shouldn't you be arguing with Goggles?

 

[CRASHiC]

Well would dropping the banana actually do anything standing chain grabs? I wonder if it would, it would need testing.

But if this technique IS real, Snake and Diddy would both be the new top tier.

 

[Spelt]

Throws are weird. You can't SDI them.

You can't SDI marth tippers or zelda's aerial sweetspots either though.

You serious? This happens a lot.

With a multitude of people, though?