Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

@giucob: So you have no problem with restrictions, as long as they get the job done?

 

[giuocob]

If we could impose enough restrictions on him so that he was not in a tier of his own, yeah, that would be great. But I don't think we can do that without going into stuff like banning Mach Tornado.

 

[theunabletable]

So banning RC and Brinstar wouldn't bring him down to an "unbannable" level, in your opinion?

 

[Espy Rose]

@AP: First of all, thanks for responding to me so soon.
Let me see if I can approach your post in some way:

1) I don't know how true this is, but people were saying that many TOs (particularly in AN) would still host MK-allowed tournaments for a while during a permanent or temp-ban. The presence of MLG (AKA national sized MK-allowed tournaments every 1.5-2 months) would only really escalate this issue. If we decided to ban MK now, yet MLG was still hosting MK-allowed events, then it's more incentive for more TOs to keep MK, or maybe more people would disagree with the BBR decision because of MLG's presence, or more of a community split would happen because people would be pushing MLG to ban MK as well.

At this point, I don't think many people, including the BBR, would make any Meta Knight changes to their rule sets. At the moment, it's all about MLG, so many events are concentrating on using the MLG Rules in order to help people prepare.

I'd think that banning Meta Knight this instant would do nothing, only because MLG is pretty much running how the rules are set up for the remainder of the season.

I agree that many TOs would outright ignore a Meta Knight ban, primarily because they wish to prepare players for MLG events in the near future. Having rules that comply by the same standards as MLG is one way of helping players prepare for those events. Because of MLG's "control" over the situation, I doubt we'd ban Meta Knight at this moment either. Hypothetically, anything could happen if a ban were issued during the season.

Still, it'd be bizarre and reckless to ban him right here, right now.

2) I don't know the extent of MLG's connections with the BBR, but there's a lot of potential issues if MLG tried to ban MK. They'd be cutting out a legal character in the middle of the season, which could and would mess with people's ability to get top 16 or top 8 or whatever they were placing, as well as cause a ton of controversy. There was something else I wanted to say that I'll probably edit in later, my mind's going blank right now.

The only way I'd agree with this is if MLG banned Meta Knight immediately. If they were to give a notification of the next event which would be Meta Knight free, I honestly don't see players like Dojo or M2K risking their top spots. Above the fact that they are Meta Knight players, they are smart.

3) ...well, the timing. It's honestly not possible to ban MK right now or any time soon because
a) The issue has to be reintroduced to the public, probably with a public poll (I don't count this as anything because a lot of people gave up on this thread and it's the same 20ish people posting here). That would probably take about a month, or at least a couple of weeks.

I doubt that another poll would work. It didn't work the first three times we tried it. Why would a fourth time be any different?

b) Then, assuming that the BBR and public had a majority decision to ban MK, the BBR would probably give people warning before they banned MK. A ban would most probably be stated ahead of time, like, "MK will be banned in 2 months," or whatever, not, "k MK's banned now." I don't know for sure what the BBR's attitude to this would be, but it seems most logical.

Agreed.

c) And then after that, there'd be all the controversy and debates and arguing about MLG banning MK, and assuming THAT fell through, then MLG would have to give warning. Since their events are already scheduled, they'd have to say beforehand that X event would be MK-banned, which would probably be the one after the current one (for example if he was banned right now this minute, the next MK-banned would be the one AFTER Columbus, which I think is Raleigh). By that time, it would probably either be the second to last MLG, or the championships (and there's the issue of people not being able to use who they've been using the entire circuit for the championships starting controversy).

Again, agreed, but only because of the fact that the ban would be in mid-season, and that type of disruption would cause several issues.

Though personally, I don't think those issues would be as severe as you seem to be implying.

And that's all assuming there's the considerable majority and BBR vote on banning MK, which hasn't happened (5% is meh). It seems illogical, irrational, and impossible time-wise to ban MK while MLG is still going on.

Plus, a lot of people would probably want to use the overall MLG results to finalize what they see in the community, it just makes more sense IMO.

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I just don't think that banning Meta Knight would do as much damage as you seem to be making it out as doing, even if they banned him during mid-season (though I do agree that doing so would be incredibly risky, even with a notification months before it was enforced).

The only consequence I see is that several players have the possibility of not placing as high as they would with another character.

Eh, I have nothing else to really contribute.

=====

Still pro-ban though. Brawl just feels like it'd be a much more enjoyable game if the counter picking system had any merit behind it (which Meta Knight crushes).

 

[etecoon]

Because nobody else has planking that warrants a ban. To ban something, it has to be broken. If we're going to arbitrarily start banning things we don't like, how about DDD's CG?

the actual pro ban platform has never claimed that meta knight is broken or that he would need to be in order to be banned.

 

[Judo777]

@Raziek: Maybe.

However, is adding two rules to prevent stalling, and maybe banning two stages for the sake of a healthier metagame really that bad?

Oh and right now temp ban is stupid. There are other things to test, imo, before doing a temp ban.

No way!!!! No way!!!! i dont even believe this there is no way that this is happening! You just said is adding 2 new rules and maybe banning two stages for a healthier metagame not bad?

WHAT ABOUT BANNING JUST 1 CHARACTER FOR A HEALTHIER METAGAME? If MK were banned there would be no reason to ban those stages. Or to add those rules.

1. By adding those rules and banning those stages u are hurting the abilities of many other characters (ie samus and pit for ledge grab limit, and everyone that is good on those 2 stages)

2. If MK were gone we already know the game would be more balanced because the game would be more diverse and everyone would have at least 2 characters that had an advantage ON A NEUTRAL STAGE. This is excluding how much the favor would turn on cps.

3. With MK gone the top players will still place well because they are good players (at least i hope if not idk what to say about the top players)

but instead of EVEN CONSIDERING temporarily banning MK lets just add 3 new rules and get rid of 2 stages (brinstar is a great stage btw). I like how while they are removing those stages you dont have anti stage banners saying "We have to know WHAT we will be looking for before considering removing these stages, and HOW will we KNOW that the game is healthier with them gone. WHO says more stages are better? And you know this game has already been playing for a long time with these stages legal MAYBE ITS TOO LATE to remove them now......." oh wait my bad guys that seems like an argument we have seen before.

 

[theunabletable]

WHAT ABOUT BANNING JUST 1 CHARACTER FOR A HEALTHIER METAGAME? If MK were banned there would be no reason to ban those stages. Or to add those rules.

Don't we ban stages with walk offs because of D3?

And if we can't add two rules to prevent stalling, then let's also remove the percentage limitations on infinites (like the ICs).

1. By adding those rules and banning those stages u are hurting the abilities of many other characters (ie samus and pit for ledge grab limit, and everyone that is good on those 2 stages)

MK specific LGL. And, maybe, you can't CP RC or Brinstar while playing as MK, while still leaving them legal for other characters to CP (by that I mean if you want to, you can CP Brinstar or RC against someone, but you're not allowed to go MK if you're the one CPing those stages, but your opponent is allowed to go MK (so we don't get people picking RC/Brinstar so that their opponent isn't allowed to play their main)).

2. If MK were gone we already know the game would be more balanced because the game would be more diverse and everyone would have at least 2 characters that had an advantage ON A NEUTRAL STAGE. This is excluding how much the favor would turn on cps.

I'd say Diddy, ICs, and maybe Falco have the advantage on MK on FD.

3. With MK gone the top players will still place well because they are good players (at least i hope if not idk what to say about the top players)

Most won't; because they've spent all their time just playing MK.

That'd be like saying Hungrybox would do well in Melee if they banned Puff just because he's a great player. He's an amazing player, but he's spent ALL of his time on Jiggs, he wouldn't do nearly as well.

but instead of EVEN CONSIDERING temporarily banning MK lets just add 3 new rules and get rid of 2 stages (brinstar is a great stage btw).

Remove the ability for MKs to CP RC and Brinstar, then. That allowed other characters to CP it all they want.

3 new rules? 2 rules to prevent stalling. If stalling prevention isn't reason for a specific rule, then remove the limitations on CGs, and allowed Jiggs to rising pound stall.

I can barely read the rest of that paragraph due to the awful grammar. I'm not even going to bother. But if the rules are MK specific, I don't see the problem with it, really. Why not just outright ban MK? Because that would **** up the community hard, especially if we ever get regions that don't ban MK. A few easily enforceable rules that lead to a fairly healthy metagame and don't **** a good portion of the community seems better, imo.

 

[Dekar173]

Temp ban is stupid because it's just a way of leading to a perma ban.

This mentality is perplexing.



Are you admitting that the entire community would be so happy with MK being banned, that they would decide to KEEP MK banned ? This proves the pro-ban point.

Are you implying that temporary means permanent? It doesn't.



What are you implying?

 

[etecoon]

This mentality is perplexing.



Are you admitting that the entire community would be so happy with MK being banned, that they would decide to KEEP MK banned ? This proves the pro-ban point.

Are you implying that temporary means permanent? It doesn't.



What are you implying?

nah, the past two years have simply proven that the status quo is difficult to overcome. temp ban makes MK banned the status quo, it becomes more difficult to get him unbanned even if no ones opinion changes.

temp ban still isn't a bad idea though, it would be good to get a real idea of what the impact would be instead of thousands of pages of theorycraft

 

[Dekar173]

Not if there is a criteria directly stating "6 months after this date, MK will be unbanned"

Of course, people could then say "No, we prefer MK banned, so we'll keep it that way" which I can understand.

 

[Mew2King]

Dehf lost his place as the best on WC due to which character??


And as far as dojo doing well without mk its not the same as winning with him.

ummm are you stupid?

did you not read the part where Tyrant's FALCO beat mike in a set then Mike beat dehf in tourney the next day

like, it's pretty obvious that dehf has a better falco, but that is just some proof that tyrant is a REALLY GOOD PLAYER

 

[Dekar173]

One friendly doesn't mean everything in the world, Jason. lol

 

[Mew2King]

tyrant is a really good overall player is the point, even though he uses MK far far more than other characters, because HE MAINS HIM

 

[Nefarious B]

There's also the point that Mike probably isn't as familiar with Tyrant's falco, while Tyrant knows Mike. So while Larry vs Mike they will both know each others' playstyles, Tyrant vs Mike is gonna be skewed in Tyrant's favor until Mike plays him more.

No one's saying Tyrant isn't a good player though, he' s a ****in beast

 

[Dekar173]

emoman173 (04:01:16 AM): what makes jiggs so broken?
emoman173 (04:01:19 AM): she always recovers?
oovideogamegodoo (04:01:55 AM): KOs at 0%
oovideogamegodoo (04:01:58 AM): can't gimp her
oovideogamegodoo (04:02:05 AM): she can gay you so easily in so many ways
oovideogamegodoo (04:02:10 AM): even wtihout rest, she can bair camp shut down almost every char
oovideogamegodoo (04:02:18 AM): auto win counterpicks and no weaknesses
oovideogamegodoo (04:02:25 AM): and if you smash DI fox's up throw uair, its guaranteed to NEVER work
oovideogamegodoo (04:02:30 AM): brb
emoman173 (04:06:33 AM): K, now I'll explain to you why MK is so broken:

He KOs at 0%
can't be gimped
he can gay you in so many ways
even without shuttle loop, he can dair camp shut down almost every character
auto win counterpicks and no weaknesses
and if you smash DI Snake's ftilt, its guaranteed to NEVER work

 

[etecoon]

K, now I'll explain to you why MK is so broken:

He KOs at 0%

joke post but some pro banners actually believe this -_-

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I swear to god if RC and Brinstar get banned...

 

[Mew2King]

dekar you're such an idiot I already told you why that argument is horrible but you didn't include it obviously

KOs at 0% are SUPER situational and must be done at the EDGE of the stage

Jiggs KOs you at 0% ANYWHERE she wants. In the center of the stage an up tilt or Uair rest KOs most characters at 0 or very close to 0, and her edge guarding/gimping game is far above MKs

wtf is gay you in so many ways

Jiggs bair camping is more broken than MK's dair camping by far

regardless of what you say Diddy ***** MK. I'll believe MK wins after I start beating ADHD, and not just having people who know how he plays beat them.

smash DIing snake's F Tilt only works if you are at very close range and you can DI into him, and other characters can do the same thing in that situation. If snake does his F tilt slowly and reacts, he can simply wait, and do either a grab or a jab -> f tilt right afterwords as the opponent is inside of him


edit - btw did you know if jiggs down throws you facing the edge, she can guarantee combo into rest unless they DI away, which means they get either tech chased or edge guarded

 

[etecoon]

it's not like MK is the only one that gets a ******** unfair advantage off of those stages, in other MU's like wario vs snake the amount that brinstar changes things is just stupid. "you did badly so you deserve a massively advantageous difference maker" belongs in MARIO KART, not fighting games. you know what, if you only allow neutrals that's still 3-5 times as many stages as actual fighting games have where the only actual difference is backgrounds

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, Jason actually taking him seriously.

@Etecoon: They are called Counterpicks.

 

[etecoon]

@Etecoon: They are called Counterpicks.

lets make 75m a counterpick

 

[Laem]

i still dont understand why jiggs bair camping is supposed to be so good...
just watch hbox vs amsah, sheiks bair is a satisfactory tool for competing with jiggs'

 

[Dekar173]

joke post but some pro banners actually believe this -_-

That was a VERY unnecessary thing for me to say. Edited.

DI shuttle loop wrong? -1 stock, you're dead, period.

Let Jiggs rest you? -1 stock, you're dead, period.



Jason, your reasoning behind it was "OMG JIGGS HAS GUARANTEED EDGEGUARDS BUT MK DOESN'T!!!" ... in melee, a game that is centered around edgeguards.

This is Brawl we're talking about buddy, and in comparison to the rest of the Brawl cast, MK's edge game can't even be touched.



Then again, this was more to bring up the fact that Jason is 100% for the banning of Jiggs in Melee, where 2 people play her, yet can't even fathom why people want MK banned.

Goodnight all, I'll be reading your illogical posts tomorrow when I've got random free time.

 

[etecoon]

lol fine(10chars)

 

[Mew2King]

Actually Dekar, if you ever spoke with hungrybox or were in MBR you'd know that I don't want jiggs banned, I just think she's stupid as hell and tell people why she's the best character

 

[Gnes]

regardless of what you say Diddy ***** MK. I'll believe MK wins after I start beating ADHD, and not just having people who know how he plays beat them.

*Tags Dekar out*

Idk how u believe your OPINION counts for more than Dekar's Jason. Especially when it's completely wrong. U dont utilize HALF the tactics dojo/anti do against diddy, and then complain when u dont do as well. U probably can't even fathom the immense potential of mk frame traps with naners. Its ********.

And since when do YOU decide the finality of matchups?!?!

But just to throw your whole theory in the water, Tyrant is 2-0 against Wyatt, and DSF is 1-0. Now before u say, Dsf timed him out/planked him/blah blah, thats part of the game. So we have two people, who have limited experience against Wyatt beating him, case closed.

 

[Raziek]

*Wakes up and Smells the *****

.... Smells good.

 

[OverLade]

Yeah no offense Jason but you're REALY REALLY terrible against Diddy and just refuse to change certain aspects of your playstyle to win, it really shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Kitamerby]

Let's just ban Diddy.

Or we should be allowed to CP Wyatt to a chair.

 

[Shaya]

He played me in a chair in doubles.

We almost won

 

[DMG]

I cp him to FD, 16 minute timer

Loll

 

[Crow!]

Jiggs KOs you at 0% ANYWHERE she wants. In the center of the stage an up tilt or Uair rest KOs most characters at 0 or very close to 0, and her edge guarding/gimping game is far above MKs

...

Jiggs bair camping is more broken than MK's dair camping by far

Is M2K talking about Melee? The second statement is just dumb to say in Brawl, and here's a quote from the Brawl Jigglypuff boards:

Nerfed, nerfed, nerfed. Still deadly against lighter opponents but the knock back on this has been nerfed so severely some characters such as Snake or DK wont have to worry about this killing until around 100%s.
...
The only true combo into this is through d-air, also known as “drill resting” however this only works if they trip.

... And if Jiggles doesn't score a KO, the opponent simply takes 15% + however much it takes before they manage to shake off the flower (in theory shouldn't be more than an extra 5% or so, I'd say), and then Jiggles takes a smash attack or DAir or whatnot to the face before she wakes up.

Comparing what a character can do in Melee to what characters can do in Brawl is very obviously flawed. For example, consider: "Z'OMG, in a completely different game in which combos are much more strongly emphasized, I can combo top tiers from 0-100% with a bottom tier character! Clearly, MK is bottom tier in Brawl."

regardless of what you say Diddy ***** MK. I'll believe MK wins after I start beating ADHD, and not just having people who know how he plays beat them.

Wow, M2K has come out and said it directly. His posts usually make it pretty obvious, but I didn't think he'd admit so directly his belief that he, personally, is the only player that matters.

To M2K, it doesn't matter just how many other Meta Knights have beaten ADHD lately, as long as M2K can't or, hypothetically, even if he voluntarily chooses not to defeat ADHD consitently, he expects everyone to believe that Diddy Kong is a MK counterpick.

Reality, on the other hand, shows that Diddy Kong is not the answer to MK. The only evidence we ever had to suggest that was ADHD beating M2K in a high profile event. Did we see a surge of players picking up Diddy and beating out the MKs? No. Did we see the Diddys other than ADHD catch up and also start beating MKs? No. Did we at least see ADHD continue to dominate MKs after his short hot streak? NO, we did not! It would appear that most of the mid and high level MKs have figured out the matchup, and things aren't looking good for Diddy Kong.

 

[Espy Rose]

*Tags Dekar out*

I got a chuckle out of this.
Good chips, Gnes.

=====

regardless of what you say Diddy ***** MK. I'll believe MK wins after I start beating ADHD, and not just having people who know how he plays beat them.

Woooooow....

Woooooooooooooow.

Subscribed.

We should have M2K do all of our match up ratios.

M2K, you are garbage in the Wyatt match up.
Learn it.

 

[bigbucks]

ADHD has to get used to the mk's that know the matchup. because he thinks he is gonna **** every mk out there without going througha challege. . Since everybody out there knows the matchup is even. -_-'



An @M2k, are you being serious? Your the only MK to be taken into account?

 

[Inui]

MK is the most fun character to fight.

 

[OverLade]

I heard MK is so good, that he can win a set....






















































































Even if he never won it.

 

[Mew2King]

*Tags Dekar out*

Idk how u believe your OPINION counts for more than Dekar's Jason. Especially when it's completely wrong. U dont utilize HALF the tactics dojo/anti do against diddy, and then complain when u dont do as well. U probably can't even fathom the immense potential of mk frame traps with naners. Its ********.

And since when do YOU decide the finality of matchups?!?!

But just to throw your whole theory in the water, Tyrant is 2-0 against Wyatt, and DSF is 1-0. Now before u say, Dsf timed him out/planked him/blah blah, thats part of the game. So we have two people, who have limited experience against Wyatt beating him, case closed.

and Felix, who isn't the best diddy but a top one, beat shadow in a MM and then 3-0d atomsk at mlg orlando

tell me all these frame traps and stuff and I'll believe you but for right now that's impossible for me to believe unless you went in detail over how MK shuts diddy down

adhd was playing crappy at MLG also i was watching him. He was much better at pound4.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the actual pro ban platform has never claimed that meta knight is broken or that he would need to be in order to be banned.

Huh... that is really weird... We actually proved that metaknight is broken beyond even Akuma.

MK is the most fun character to fight.

Ew no. How about we turn those LGLs off and you tell me again after 1 second of tornado, 3 seconds of running to the edge, and 7:59:56 of frame perfect planking?

I heard MK is so good, that he can win a set....


Even if he never won it.

TOP TIER POST

EDIT: Also, just how bad is M2K against diddy?

 

[Raziek]

Do I smell some Inui logic in this thread? Hmm....

 

[solecalibur]

and Felix, who isn't the best diddy but a top one, beat shadow in a MM and then 3-0d atomsk at mlg orlando

tell me all these frame traps and stuff and I'll believe you but for right now that's impossible for me to believe unless you went in detail over how MK shuts diddy down

adhd was playing crappy at MLG also i was watching him. He was much better at pound4.

Cant that apply to Shadow or Atomsk to?