Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

My god I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT AIR CAMPING.
Scrooging INVOLVES mk being IN THE AIR, and if he scrooges to the point where the air time is significantly higher than normal, we can DQ the MK. The only problem is setting the "norm" for MK's air time. So this is basically a scrooging limit.

Oh, sorry, my mistake... that's what I get for skimming

Well if it's just for scrooging, wouldn't MK not being allowed to glide under the stage be significantly easier to track during the game, and limit his non-broken things far less (because that would unnecesarily limit his air camping which isn't broken, whereas there is an alternative that wouldn't do so, it'd only limit an incredibly unnecesary recovery option)?

@joel: What is this error in Ganon's code that you speak of?

 

[Kaffei]

The real problem with setting an airtime limit is that it's near impossible for players to keep track of it.

How is it near impossible? At the end of each match, there's a list that show air time, # of ledge grabs, how much damage you gave/took etc. The problem is setting a norm for the air time.

Oh, sorry, my mistake... that's what I get for skimming

Well if it's just for scrooging, wouldn't MK not being allowed to glide under the stage be significantly easier to track during the game, and limit his non-broken things far less (because that would unnecesarily limit his air camping which isn't broken, whereas there is an alternative that wouldn't do so, it'd only limit an incredibly unnecesary recovery option)?

@joel: What is this error in Ganon's code that you speak of?

If the player facing MK feels that he has been scrooged (which is evident by flying under the stage over and over again) they can look at the air time. Air camping isn't as bad, so they won't need to look at it

 

[AvaricePanda]

How would you differentiate the air time that was spent on the stage vs. the air time spent scrooging? What if someone felt really campy or was just in the air a lot during the match and they exceed the air time limit without scrooging? Or what if someone scrooged for a couple minutes but was more grounded on the stage and just walked everywhere?

also why is this being discussed

edit: @RocketPSIscience, I agree that this thread should be locked at least for a while.

 

[Chuee]

Sorry I don't know what you mean by "their" :x



-___________-

The "viable" characters best stage.
Like Halberd for Snake.

 

[theunabletable]

@Kaffei: I think he's talking about WHILE PLAYING. It's a lot easier to just not glide under the stage than try and keep track of how long you've been in the air.

 

[Red Arremer]

@joel: What is this error in Ganon's code that you speak of?

A few of Ganon's aerials were meant to autocancel, but due to a coding error, simply don't.

 

[bigbucks]

@joel: What is this error in Ganon's code that you speak of?

His fair was supposed to have Auto cancel an IASA frames, but a coding error in the attack made it lose all of that.

Making it the fair of today

 

[Kaffei]

How would you differentiate the air time that was spent on the stage vs. the air time spent scrooging? What if someone felt really campy or was just in the air a lot during the match and they exceed the air time limit without scrooging? Or what if someone scrooged for a couple minutes but was more grounded on the stage and just walked everywhere?

also why is this being discussed

edit: @RocketPSIscience, I agree that this thread should be locked at least for a while.

You can visually tell the difference between scrooging and air camping.
I don't see why someone would scrooge for a couple minutes then randomly started walking back on stage. I'm discussing this because scrooging is a problem.. Isn't it?

@Kaffei: I think he's talking about WHILE PLAYING. It's a lot easier to just not glide under the stage than try and keep track of how long you've been in the air.

You don't have to keep track of how long you've been in the air while playing because it just shows you the number at the end of the match

 

[theunabletable]

lol I didn't know that.

It's so dumb how you can do a full hop rising FAir as Ganon and you'll still get ALL of the landing lag...
@Kaffei: Can you reply to my other post about scrooging limits and stuff?

 

[bigbucks]

A few of Ganon's aerials were meant to autocancel, but due to a coding error, simply don't.

All of his aerials Can be auto canceled, except for fair

 

[bigbucks]

lol I didn't know that.

It's so dumb how you can do a full hop rising FAir as Ganon and you'll still get ALL of the landing lag...
@Kaffei: Can you reply to my other post about scrooging limits and stuff?

You can DJ Fair with no lag, the timing is strict tho, but it isnt a true AC, since a DJed Fair makes it go through all the animation before plunging through the ground

 

[Kaffei]

lol I didn't know that.

It's so dumb how you can do a full hop rising FAir as Ganon and you'll still get ALL of the landing lag...
@Kaffei: Can you reply to my other post about scrooging limits and stuff?

Which other post

 

[Red Arremer]

All of his aerials Can be auto canceled, except for fair

Yea, then that. Sorry, it's been a while since I read this info, and I've actually put more time into doing more useful stuff than remembering what moves Ganon is able to autocancel.

 

[theunabletable]

lmao that's so dumb

How do they MESS UP making something ACable? Was originally programming smash stats and stuff not as simple as PSA?
@Kaffei: Sorry I didn't see that you HAD responded to it.

If the player facing MK feels that he has been scrooged (which is evident by flying under the stage over and over again) they can look at the air time. Air camping isn't as bad, so they won't need to look at it

Except if I'm playing to win, I'm going to look at the air time no matter what. I do the same right now with those ridiculous universal LGLs. When I fight Pit's I let them stay on the ledge the whole match, then laugh at the sad look on their face when I tell them to check their ledge grabs.

I'd do the same thing with air time.

 

[bigbucks]

lmao that's so dumb

How do they MESS UP making something ACable? Was originally programming smash stats and stuff not as simple as PSA?

Probably negligence by nintendo.

They wanted to make ganon suck more than he does now.

sad, Since an ACable FAIR will help so much in the Marth an mk matchup. :/

 

[Turbo Ether]

Now you guys are talking about limiting air camping, lol.

I'm going to contradict my last post and say that, having to limit or ban STRATEGIES is testament to the character being a huge problem. In any other fighting game community, when a character possesses overwhelmingly powerful strategies, they don't limit the use of the strategies, they just ban the character. It's astounding how many surgical changes this community is willing to implement to keep a character legal. Lol.

 

[Kaffei]

Now you guys are talking about limiting air camping, lol.

I'm going to contradict my last post and say that, having to limit or ban STRATEGIES is testament to the character being a huge problem. In any other fighting game community, when a character possesses overwhelmingly powerful strategies, they don't limit the use of the strategies, they just ban the character. It's astounding how many surgical changes this community is willing to implement to keep a character legal. Lol.

You obviously like to skim through posts. I am NOT talking about limiting air camping for ****'s sake. I'm talking about scrooging.

For your other point, why NOT add additional rules to keep that character in game if those rules can induce more balance? Because it's too much work?

 

[theunabletable]

@Turbo: Whoa, whoa, whoa who is seriously talking about limiting air camping?

I just misunderstood the meaning behind Kaffei's post, that's all.

@Kaffei: I added an edit to my last post.

 

[bigbucks]

Now you guys are talking about limiting air camping, lol.

I'm going to contradict my last post and say that, having to limit or ban STRATEGIES is testament to the character being a huge problem. In any other fighting game community, when a character possesses overwhelmingly powerful strategies, they don't limit the use of the strategies, they just ban the character. It's astounding how many surgical changes this community is willing to implement to keep a character legal. Lol.

the difference is how much those surgical changes affect the game ina negative way.


Air time limit is stupid, your limiting an effective but not overly broken strategy

 

[Judo777]

How do u even put a concrete limit on scrooging? Can't glide under the stage more than twice before having to land back on the stage? Ok then how u gonna stop an MK from gliding under twice then using any of his amazing auto canceling B moves like Shuttle loop land on the stage for just a second then continue the procedure.

 

[Kaffei]

Except if I'm playing to win, I'm going to look at the air time no matter what. I do the same right now with those ridiculous universal LGLs. When I fight Pit's I let them stay on the ledge the whole match, then laugh at the sad look on their face when I tell them to check their ledge grabs.

I'd do the same thing with air time.

Then we can place it in a criteria of stalling.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Here in Mexico will be used a 40-ledgegrab limit (60 for ICs). Ledgestalling wouldn't be that effective....

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Kaffei, the problem with your idea is
A) Enforcement - will you really get a TO to come over to look at it and determine if it's just air camping or scrooging?
B) Subjectiveness - How much of it is scrooging? Leaves too much discretion to the TO's

 

[Turbo Ether]

You obviously like to skim through posts. I am NOT talking about limiting air camping for ****'s sake. I'm talking about scrooging.

For your other point, why NOT add additional rules to keep that character in game if those rules can induce more balance? Because it's too much work?

Because it's not up to the community to balance the game. That's the developer's job. If you want, you could attempt to fix every imbalance in the game by adding arbitrary rules wherever you see fit. At what point would you stop?

My mentioning of air camping was just a catalyst to set up my second point.

 

[solecalibur]

Here in Mexico will be used a 40-ledgegrab limit (60 for ICs). Ledgestalling wouldn't be that effective....

O.o When both ICs hit the ledge it counts as 2? and it shouldnt matter if you cant stop IC planking (is that possible?) you need to rethink what character you picked


edit - I have a great idea that will nerf metaknight greatly and keep competitive play

Ban him

Gud idear right?

 

[adumbrodeus]

How is it near impossible? At the end of each match, there's a list that show air time, # of ledge grabs, how much damage you gave/took etc. The problem is setting a norm for the air time.

You're missing the point.


If you're requiring me to limit the amount of something I can do, you better leave me with an accurate way to measure my usage of something.

 

[Kaffei]

Because it's not up to the community to balance the game. That's the developer's job. If you want, you could attempt to fix every imbalance in the game by adding arbitrary rules wherever you see fit. At what point would you stop?

My mentioning of air camping was just a catalyst to set up my second point.

So then why have this discussion if we're not responsible..

You're missing the point.


If you're requiring me to limit the amount of something I can do, you better leave me with an accurate way to measure my usage of something.

So then what do we do :|

 

[theunabletable]

How do u even put a concrete limit on scrooging? Can't glide under the stage more than twice before having to land back on the stage? Ok then how u gonna stop an MK from gliding under twice then using any of his amazing auto canceling B moves like Shuttle loop land on the stage for just a second then continue the procedure.

Ban MK from gliding under the stage would do it, I think.

 

[Kaffei]

Ban MK from gliding under the stage would do it, I think.

I like this idea... so simple.
I don't see why this wouldn't work

 

[Raziek]

Probably because it's actually a legitimate recovery tactic, MK's just abuse it.

 

[Judo777]

while we are at it lets make MK only be allowed to recover with drill rush! thats a great rule i think!

*sarcasm*

 

[Kaffei]

Probably because it's actually a legitimate recovery tactic, MK's just abuse it.

Meta Knight already has 2340284209484298294924924293873 recovery options, taking out one shouldn't be a problem.

while we are at it lets make MK only be allowed to recover with drill rush! thats a great rule i think!

*sarcasm*

..

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know what will be great, if people started hosting both Mk banned an Mk legal tourneys.in the same region.

It will be the best of both worlds!!. :D

:/

Then the MK mains don't go to the MK banned tournaments, the other players realize that most of the "best" players are gone, and slowly but surely, the TOs running the MK legal tournaments start losing money. It just doesn't work.

if losing a couple mk mains means fixing an otherwise broken game then so be it

they would be missed though

...

(NO THEY WOULDN'T!)

So the only reason this game is unbalanced is because of mk?

Oh god the ignorance. :/

Well, technically, at least top tier is in fact shockingly balanced without MK. This has been shown several times.

-Ban Brinstar &/or RC.
-Air time limit for MK.

The first... can we just ban them for MK? As in, if you play MK, you aren't allowed to choose those stages as your counterpick? Wario loves that stage.

The second... can't count it at all in the match, and nukes aircamping. If an MK spends 3/4s of the match in the air (like a good aircamper would), then alarm bells are gonna sound.

You obviously like to skim through posts. I am NOT talking about limiting air camping for ****'s sake. I'm talking about scrooging.

For your other point, why NOT add additional rules to keep that character in game if those rules can induce more balance? Because it's too much work?

Legit question...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ban MK from gliding under the stage would do it, I think.

THANK YOU!

I'm not the only one who thinks this.


Pit deserves it too honestly, he can legit circle camp cause he glides about as fast as Falcon can run.

 

[theunabletable]

@Raziek: It's unnecesary, as well.

MKs can recover without it easily, he's ****ing MK.

It's unfortunate that we'd be limiting a legitimate tactic. As unfortunate as it is that we limit ICs ability to kill with UThrow by limiting CGs to 300%.

For your other point, why NOT add additional rules to keep that character in game if those rules can induce more balance? Because it's too much work?

I'd like an answer to this, as well.

 

[Kaffei]

The first... can we just ban them for MK? As in, if you play MK, you aren't allowed to choose those stages as your counterpick? Wario loves that stage.

That would be fine, too. As long as the MK isn't allowed to play on RC &/or Brinstar it would make fighting MK easier.

The second... can't count it at all in the match, and nukes aircamping. If an MK spends 3/4s of the match in the air (like a good aircamper would), then alarm bells are gonna sound.

Yeah, I didn't think of it like that. It is a bad idea now that I think about it really carefully lol


So then let's ban RC/Brinstar FOR MK & ban him from gliding under stages.

 

[Kewkky]

So unable table, you're pretty much taking every suggestion to limit MK without banning him, and throwing out the window. Is banning MK the only thing that you will accept? I mean, gliding under the stage is just as legit as planking in my opinion: both give you great positional advantage and prevent your opponent from reaching you until you either feel safe enough to touch the floor, or until the timer runs out. Opponents trying to get you to stop doing that will jump offstage and either lose a stock, or take some damage, while you rinse and repeat the whole process.

It might be a recovery tactic, but for the sake of making the game more bearable than it is now, wouldn't you have to say that it's easily enforceable?


I personally don't think that scrooging is the whole problem with MK, planking is also too much for everyone to deal with. While I would enjoy a ruling implemented on gliding under stages, I would also enjoy another one against planking, even more so than gliding under stages due to the popularity of it.

 

[Kaffei]

So unable table, you're pretty much taking every suggestion to limit MK without banning him, and throwing out the window. Is banning MK the only thing that you will accept? I mean, gliding under the stage is just as legit as planking in my opinion: both give you great positional advantage and prevent your opponent from reaching you until you either feel safe enough to touch the floor, or until the timer runs out. Opponents trying to get you to stop doing that will jump offstage and either lose a stock, or take some damage, while you rinse and repeat the whole process.

It might be a recovery tactic, but for the sake of making the game more bearable than it is now, wouldn't you have to say that it's easily enforceable?


I personally don't think that scrooging is the whole problem with MK, planking is also too much for everyone to deal with. While I would enjoy a ruling implemented on gliding under stages, I would also enjoy another one against planking, even more so than gliding under stages due to the popularity of it.

-Ban Brinstar &/or Rainbow Cruise for MK.
-Ban gliding under stages as MK.
-LGL <~ doesn't this restrain planking?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Cool discussion and all... But, really, the problem is not MetaKnight, nor the dumb things he's capable to do.
The problem is the ******** people that abuse of its ******** moveset...

 

[theunabletable]

So unable table, you're pretty much taking every suggestion to limit MK without banning him, and throwing out the window. Is banning MK the only thing that you will accept?

Whoa, whoa, whoa where are you getting this idea? I'm quite anti-ban. I'm just against unnecesarily limiting MK. If the metagame can be healthy without limiting or banning something, then we shouldn't limit or ban those things.

But if it comes down to limiting some of MKs options, or banning MK altogether, considering the game we're playing I'd say that limiting those options would be a far better alternative.

I personally don't think that scrooging is the whole problem with MK, planking is also too much for everyone to deal with. While I would enjoy a ruling implemented on gliding under stages, I would also enjoy another one against planking, even more so than gliding under stages due to the popularity of it.

So with a scrooging limit, and an LGL, you'd think MK would be fine?

Personally I think so. And if he were to ever get too dominant, I think before any of that temp ban bull **** is experimented with, you should try experimenting with RC and Brinstar banned first.