Official Metaknight Discussion

[Kaffei]

-Ban Brinstar &/or Rainbow Cruise for MK.
-Ban gliding under stages as MK.
-LGL.





Temp ban is stupid because it's just a way of leading to a perma ban.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Just for the sake of my curiosity: How many MK-specific limitations in the rules do you think the character warrants before it's fair to say he's completely broken and should just be banned?

You might want to remember that, iirc, scrooging was basically started as MK going "neener neener neener" to previous rules meant to limit him.

 

[Kaffei]

Just for the sake of my curiosity: How many MK-specific limitations in the rules do you think the character warrants before it's fair to say he's completely broken and should just be banned?

You might want to remember that, iirc, scrooging was basically started as MK going "neener neener neener" to previous rules meant to limit him.

Why NOT add additional rules to keep that character in game if those rules can induce more balance? Because it's too much work? lol@ U

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Way to ignore my question completely.

 

[Kaffei]

Way to ignore my question completely.

We don't know. Who knows when MK will come up with another method of bypassing another rule and once again go "neener neener".

-Ban Brinstar &/or Rainbow Cruise for MK.
-Ban gliding under stages as MK.
-LGL.

:D

 

[theunabletable]

I'm honestly not sure right now.

However, currently, I don't see banning Brinstar and RC, adding a scrooging limit, and having an MK specific LGL as being too much.

If the rules are incredibly easy to enforce, I don't know if there ever would be a realistic too much.

We've already limited and banned SO ****ING MUCH of things in this game, I don't see what's inherently wrong with adding an easily enforceable rule if it leads to a healthier metagame.

 

[Raziek]

You're being pretty naive here Kaffei. Adding all these rules isn't really that simple, though at least MOST of these ones are discrete and enforceable.

The point is, if we need 6 or 7 rules targeting ONE specific character, this character is probably on a completely different level than the rest of the cast, to the point of consideration for a ban.

 

[Kaffei]

You're being pretty naive here Kaffei. Adding all these rules isn't really that simple, though at least MOST of these ones are discrete and enforceable.

The point is, if we need 6 or 7 rules targeting ONE specific character, this character is probably on a completely different level than the rest of the cast, to the point of consideration for a ban.

Which brings me to an old question.. Why isn't he banned yet?
It's perfectly fine to add rules if we can keep a character less broken.

Banning Brinstar/RC doesn't seem hard.
Neither does preventing MK from gliding under the stage. Sooo why not

 

[Raziek]

Which brings me to an old question.. Why isn't he banned yet?
It's perfectly fine to add rules if we can keep a character less broken.

We've been over it a thousand times why he isn't banned yet. If it wasn't for MLG, we'd probably have temp banned by now.

 

[Kaffei]

A temp ban is just asking for a perma ban.

 

[theunabletable]

@Raziek: Maybe.

However, is adding two rules to prevent stalling, and maybe banning two stages for the sake of a healthier metagame really that bad?

Oh and right now temp ban is stupid. There are other things to test, imo, before doing a temp ban.

 

[Raziek]

@Raziek: Maybe.

However, is adding two rules to prevent stalling, and maybe banning two stages for the sake of a healthier metagame really that bad?

Oh and right now temp ban is stupid. There are other things to test, imo, before doing a temp ban.

I agree that these things are worth testing, I'm just pointing out how extreme things are getting to be here. It's starting to get downright silly.

And I know temp ban won't work right now, we can't do squat with MLG going on. I guess it would be worth testing, but SOMEONE is going to have to take the initiative and run a major tournament with these tests.

 

[Kaffei]

I agree that these things are worth testing, I'm just pointing out how extreme things are getting to be here. It's starting to get downright silly.

It's silly enough we turned a party game into a competition.

 

[WindMajor]

Those limitations sound completely ridiculous to me, Kaffei.

Banning two stages because MK does really well in them?
Ban gliding under the stage once because we fear that he might do it twice?

Ledge grabs are legit though, for all characters, even though I know it's mostly aimed at MK.



I mean, I realize what you are trying to do, but the limitations themselves are unrealistic. For example, what happens if I glide (less than) half way under the stage, stop, then turn around and grab the edge. Would I be breaking a rule?

Also, in a stage like Smashville, I can use my five jumps to go from one ledge to the other without gliding.

I completely dodged your rule.

Now we have a problem. :/

 

[theunabletable]

Banning two stages because MK does really well in them?

Why is it that we ban Japes?

For example, what happens if I glide (less than) half way under the stage, stop, then turn around and grab the edge. Would I be breaking a rule?

No, but you'd grab the ledge, which could VERY EASILY lead to you going over the limit lol

Also, in a stage like Smashville, I can use my five jumps to go from one ledge to the other without gliding.

I completely dodged your rule.

Now we have a problem. :/

Remind me how you're going from one ledge to the other without... errr... making the ledge grab counter go up?

 

[Kaffei]

Those limitations sound completely ridiculous to me, Kaffei.

Banning two stages because MK does really well in them?
Ban gliding under the stage once because we fear that he might do it twice?

Ledge grabs are legit though, for all characters, even though I know it's mostly aimed at MK.



I mean, I realize what you are trying to do, but the limitations themselves are unrealistic. For example, what happens if I glide (less than) half way under the stage, stop, then turn around and grab the edge. Would I be breaking a rule?

Also, in a stage like Smashville, I can use my five jumps to go from one ledge to the other without gliding.

I completely dodged your rule.

Now we have a problem. :/

We've already banned a bunch of other stages because they were deemed unviable and unfit for tournament play, so I see no reason to ban more if they are considered problems. Brinstar/RC significantly benefit Meta Knight, & I already said since he is good on every other stage taking out those two stage from MK's list of CPs really isn't that bad. It would help other characters because they don't have to deal with MK flying around easily while other characters don't have that kind of aerial mobility to safely maneuver around lava (Brinstar) & trek the rising screen (RC) WHILE simultaneously having to deal with Tornado & Up Air.

As for your dodging of the rule, you're grabbing the ledge, TWiNK.

 

[jinkogunai]

On the subject on limiting mk without banning him, i think that from the introduction of that option, one could deduce that he should be banned. its one thing to ban a certain aspect or attribute from competitive play because of its ability to make the game "unfair", but its usually something not character specific and is something certain characters use for "unfair" advantages. i can also understand removing specific techniques the character can do to exploit unfair mechanics/glitches such as infinites or moves that can stun you forever etc..

But now you're talking about limiting moves that dont break the game or give him "unfair" advantages. thats almost like making a new mk with different moveset properties. thing is, we cant change his properties. the way everyone talks about him ( not to mention his frame data and other things), it seems like HE is an "unfair" advantage and therefore should be banned.

But I'm all for the 6 month ban to see if its a good idea if it comes down to that.

 

[Kaffei]

On the subject on limiting mk without banning him, i think that the mere introduction of that option could deduce that he should be banned. its one thing to ban a certain aspect or attribute from competitive play because of its ability to make the game unfair, but its usually something not character specific and is something certain characters use for "unfair" advantages. i can also understand removing specific techniques the character can do to exploit unfair mechanics/glitches such as infinites or moves that can stun you forever etc..

But now you're talking about limiting moves that dont break the game or give him unfair advantages. thats almost like making a new mk with different moveset properties. thing is, we cant change his properties. the way everyone talks about him ( not to mention his frame data and other things), it seems like HE is an unfair advantage and therefore should be banned.

But I'm all for the 6 month ban to see if its a good idea.

No, because if you watch matches MK appears to be "normal" when he's not planking, or scrooging. We ARE talking about limiting moves that break the game & give him unfair advantages. Practically no character can beat his planking, nor his scrooging. That's breaking the game.

As long as we can continue to establish rational rulesets for a character to exhibit a sense of balance, we shouldn't ban him.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys see that Ally went MK against M2K in WHOBO GFs?

 

[Kaffei]

You guys see that Ally went MK against M2K in WHOBO GFs?

Yeah, so? o-O

 

[Raziek]

We shouldn't be banning stages unless they're considered TOO powerful for a character or strategy, to the point of making it a near 100% win rate for the character in question. Having a strong stage for your character is the whole point of a counterpick. -_-

Japes shouldn't be banned anywhere, but people are *****es. If Japes is banned, RC and Brinstar may as well be too.

 

[Kaffei]

We shouldn't be banning stages unless they're considered TOO powerful for a character or strategy, to the point of making it a near 100% win rate for the character in question. Having a strong stage for your character is the whole point of a counterpick. -_-

Japes shouldn't be banned anywhere, but people are *****es. If Japes is banned, RC and Brinstar may as well be too.

But Meta Knight is a special case. He's an extremely powerful character in itself, so giving him two gay counter picks is outright dumb imo.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, so? o-O

Just pointing that out.

 

[Kaffei]

Just pointing that out.

Oh. xD .

 

[Raziek]

But Meta Knight is a special case. He's an extremely powerful character in itself, so giving him two gay counter picks is outright dumb imo.

Why should MK be a special case? Just because he's ban-worthy otherwise? Plenty of other character have stronger CPs, including FD for probably 8-10 different characters. So why aren't we banning FD?

MK shouldn't get super-special treatment to this point JUST to keep him in the game.

 

[jinkogunai]

No, because if you watch matches MK appears to be "normal" when he's not planking, or scrooging. We ARE talking about limiting moves that break the game & give him unfair advantages. Practically no character can beat his planking, nor his scrooging. That's breaking the game.

As long as we can continue to establish rational rulesets for a character to exhibit a sense of balance, we shouldn't ban him.

but in general, even when he isn't doing those things, his moves seem to be too safe and have very good properties. imo he is a low risk, high reward character and the risks that he takes aren't to the point where he will be overwhelmed by them. what im trying to concur is that he has too many good options and the bad situations that can come from those options give too low impact damage wise nor does it change his play strategy much. so even if you somehow stopped planking and scrooging, the rest of his game is still very much solid.

 

[Kaffei]

Why should MK be a special case? Just because he's ban-worthy otherwise? Plenty of other character have stronger CPs, including FD for probably 8-10 different characters. So why aren't we banning FD?

MK shouldn't get super-special treatment to this point JUST to keep him in the game.

Because those other characters aren't affecting the community/game like MK is doing now.

 

[Raziek]

Because those other characters aren't affecting the community/game like MK is doing now.

I'll say the same thing others have said in the past.

So? You still haven't given me a valid reason to make all these provisions (some of them unfair, I might add), just to keep a STILL very close to broken character in the game.

 

[Kaffei]

I'll say the same thing others have said in the past.

So? You still haven't given me a valid reason to make all these provisions (some of them unfair, I might add), just to keep a STILL very close to broken character in the game.

Then let's ban him.

 

[Raziek]

Then let's ban him.

Look, are you dense? We've been over this 1000 times.

You know what, I'll give you your valid reason. The only valid reason to do all that other **** mentioned to keep him in the game, is because we can't ban him until MLG is done.

Now stop pulling the ****ing "Just ban him." ****, when you know very well (or you should, god help you if you don't), that it isn't that ****ing simple.

 

[salaboB]

Look, are you dense? We've been over this 1000 times.

You know what, I'll give you your valid reason. The only valid reason to do all that other **** mentioned to keep him in the game, is because we can't ban him until MLG is done.

Now stop pulling the ****ing "Just ban him." ****, when you know very well (or you should, god help you if you don't), that it isn't that ****ing simple.

Sure.

So why didn't we ban him before MLG started?

Because the reasons to not ban him are not as simple as you're saying, either.

 

[Raziek]

Sure.

So why didn't we ban him before MLG started?

Because the reasons to not ban him are not as simple as you're saying, either.

We didn't ban him before MLG started because we hadn't gathered enough data to prove within a reasonable doubt that it was warranted, despite the 4 community polls all in favor of pro-ban, etc.

The only reason we didn't try a TEMP ban before MLG is because nobody could agree on a **** criteria or a banning threshold to go with following the data collection period. (Which still hasn't happened yet either)

 

[Kaffei]

Look, are you dense? We've been over this 1000 times.

You know what, I'll give you your valid reason. The only valid reason to do all that other **** mentioned to keep him in the game, is because we can't ban him until MLG is done.

Now stop pulling the ****ing "Just ban him." ****, when you know very well (or you should, god help you if you don't), that it isn't that ****ing simple.

Exactly, I know. It's not simple to ban MK.
Which is exactly why I'm suggesting restrictions if banning him is going to take 5 billion years.
I don't see a point in a temp ban, it will just lead to a perma ban, won't it? So if a temp ban were to ever be implemented, why not just turn it into a perma ban.. After MLG, of course.
And what if after MLG nothing happens? Are we just going to sit here and discuss like we've been doing?

 

[salaboB]

We didn't ban him before MLG started because we hadn't gathered enough data to prove within a reasonable doubt that it was warranted, despite the 4 community polls all in favor of pro-ban, etc.

We got it right before MLG was announced, the anti-ban side still had its core group of very loud people and the ban sure didn't look like it was going to go through then either.

Lot of people were, and still are, on the fence. I haven't seen enough support for banning MK as soon as MLG is done for the season to believe that's actually reasonable to expect at this point, either.

 

[jinkogunai]

Exactly, I know. It's not simple to ban MK.
Which is exactly why I'm suggesting restrictions if banning him is going to take 5 billion years.
I don't see a point in a temp ban, it will just lead to a perma ban, won't it? So if a temp ban were to ever be implemented, why not just turn it into a perma ban.. After MLG, of course.
And what if after MLG nothing happens? Are we just going to sit here and discuss like we've been doing?

as much as i dont agree that restricting meta knight will stop him from being an extremely superior character from the rest of the cast, i have to agree with him on everything else. going to extremes has only lead to a stalled conflict and putting more restriction will aid in progressing the matter and lead to a permanent solution. a temp ban is starting to sound like an extreme to people and you have to compromise to both sides in order to come to a viable solution. touche kaffei, touche.....

 

[theunabletable]

So? You still haven't given me a valid reason to make all these provisions (some of them unfair, I might add), just to keep a STILL very close to broken character in the game.

Why should we ban him if, with extremely easy to enforce rules, he's fine?

 

[giuocob]

Why should we ban him if, with extremely easy to enforce rules, he's fine?

A lot of us don't think he's fine even with those restrictions. I think he's completely busted in the absence of any sorts of stalling techniques.

 

[Kaffei]

A lot of us don't think he's fine even with those restrictions. I think he's completely busted in the absence of any sorts of stalling techniques.

you play luigi

 

[giuocob]

...in Melee. Kirby for Brawl.

 

[Kaffei]

...in Melee. Kirby for Brawl.

you play kirby