Official Metaknight Discussion

[adumbrodeus]

MK doesn't have to grab the ledge.
MK can UpB onto the edge, and he can Tornado up and around the edge, landing in the middle of the stage.

As for Japes, I have no idea why it's banned.

Since when is japes banned?


If you're talking about MLG, probably because it's an extremely campy and, remember, mlg is a spectator sport.

 

[Raziek]

Since when is japes banned?


If you're talking about MLG, probably because it's an extremely campy and, remember, mlg is a spectator sport.

I's also banned on conservative stage lists, such as (for example) the Apex 2010 stage list. Which has it banned, yet RC and Brinstar are still legal.

SENSE, IT MAKES NONE.

 

[etecoon]

japes is legal in a few regions, MLG's stage list was determined by flipping a coin for every stage as far as I can tell anyway

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why should we ban him if, with extremely easy to enforce rules, he's fine?

Because you've admitted he's broken.

 

[Veril]

I believe DMG proved it with frame data.

No, he strongly supported the assertion with frame data, but didn't flat out prove it. If there were only inv. frames for the duration that would be the case. See my post as to how to actually prove this a few pages back, behind all the useless crap posted by people who lack anything new to bring to this discussion.

Adum, talk to me sometime and I will explain this in mind-numbingly technical excruciating detail. You're a smart guy and I'm pretty confident that you'd be able to understand.

Since when is japes banned?


If you're talking about MLG, probably because it's an extremely campy and, remember, mlg is a spectator sport.

Japes should be unbanned just long enough so that I can show off the uber planking techniques only possible on that stage.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, he strongly supported the assertion with frame data, but didn't flat out prove it. If there were only inv. frames for the duration that would be the case. See my post as to how to actually prove this a few pages back, behind all the useless crap posted by people who lack anything new to bring to this discussion.

Adum, talk to me sometime and I will explain this in mind-numbingly technical excruciating detail. You're a smart guy and I'm pretty confident that you'd be able to understand.

Fair enoough, you're attempting to prove that it's truly unbeatable in theory as opposed to simply being so ridiculously it's 80-20 or better on the entire case.


Fair enough, I've been trying to catch you on the IRC, never actually run into you though.

Hit me up on aim sometime, k?

Japes should be unbanned just long enough so that I can show off the uber planking techniques only possible on that stage.

Huh, legit reason to ban japes, I'm game.

I'm game.

 

[Veril]

Adumbrodeus: I'm on aim right now.

Get at me and I will fill you in on my plans.


That offer also extends to GNES and DMG. If you want a really detailed explanation of the epic research-plan, talk to me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can't, dropping in occasionally to check in on mafia games, but I'm helping a friend pack from his dorm so I can't really do a conversation, you gonna be on later today?

 

[Veril]

Can't, dropping in occasionally to check in on mafia games, but I'm helping a friend pack from his dorm so I can't really do a conversation, you gonna be on later today?

Give me a time and I'll get on. I've been meaning to talk with you about a number of things. We're both kinda similar in our feelings about this debate, though you describe yourself as anti-ban who would love to be pro-ban and I'm anti-ban who wants MK specific limits.

I do feel that pro-ban has pursued the ban in many of the wrong ways research wise, and that it could be done much better. Also there's definite potential for anti-ban to prove/disprove certain statements. eh, its just underwhelming from a technical standpoint (except DMG, he's amazing).

 

[bigbucks]

Only MK's planking is worth actually banning. No other character can even execute a single aerial with complete invulnerability from ledge-drop iirc. This said I like the challenge of being required to actually prove this, and that is exactly what I'm going to do (over the next few weeks).



Yeah, I'm just gonna go find those now. I'd be amazed if it was anything so complex I couldn't figure it out with some testing.



Perfect planking isn't that hard lol

Buffering + ledge-grab distance + only requires 3 moves (up-air x2 and dimensional cape) = not that hard.

You might say that. but...
is it possible to do this perfectly for 8 whole minutes? I don't think they can do that without making a tiny error.

 

[Xyro77]

Give me a time and I'll get on. I've been meaning to talk with you about a number of things. We're both kinda similar in our feelings about this debate, though you describe yourself as anti-ban who would love to be pro-ban and I'm anti-ban who wants MK specific limits.

I do feel that pro-ban has pursued the ban in many of the wrong ways research wise, and that it could be done much better. Also there's definite potential for anti-ban to prove/disprove certain statements. eh, its just underwhelming from a technical standpoint (except DMG, he's amazing).

pro-ban and anti-ban have BOTH proved mk needs to go. its clear to those who can use common sense.

 

[OverLade]

You might say that. but...
is it possible to do this perfectly for 8 whole minutes? I don't think they can do that without making a tiny error.

LOL and assuming they make 1 error every minute what are the chances that that 1 error will be punished. They don't even have to do it perfectly, they just have to watch their opponent and make sure they're invincible when something is risking hitting them.

And not only that, but perfect planking is WAAAAY easier than even punishing bad planking. UairuairdownB is easycakes for anyone who actually uses MK.

 

[Veril]

You might say that. but...
is it possible to do this perfectly for 8 whole minutes? I don't think they can do that without making a tiny error.

I... might say that?

No, I am saying that. There's nothing questionable about it. Perfect planking is a rote series of inputs, which does not exceed human limits, unlike say natural lightstepping for 8 minutes. It isn't technically beyond the scope of what people have shown themselves capable of.

pro-ban and anti-ban have BOTH proved mk needs to go. its clear to those who can use common sense.

Yes, this is obvious from the repeated failures to get him banned. Obvious.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Give me a time and I'll get on. I've been meaning to talk with you about a number of things. We're both kinda similar in our feelings about this debate, though you describe yourself as anti-ban who would love to be pro-ban and I'm anti-ban who wants MK specific limits.

I do feel that pro-ban has pursued the ban in many of the wrong ways research wise, and that it could be done much better. Also there's definite potential for anti-ban to prove/disprove certain statements. eh, its just underwhelming from a technical standpoint (except DMG, he's amazing).

Definitely gonna be on at 8 EST, might be on earlier as well, but unsure.


If you're on and I'm on earlier I'll hit you up.

 

[DMG]

I messaged you. Says you are away. FLARB NO COMPUTE FLARB

Oh yes, as for Gnes' frame traps, I actually think I know what he is referring to. There are 3 main things I can think of, that I am almost certain are frame traps or unpunishables that are not fun for Diddy to deal with. 1-2 of them involve bananas used very well from MK, the other might be a frame trap on Diddy trying to throw a banana at MK for certain circumstances.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yes, this is obvious from the repeated failures to get him banned. Obvious.

Obviously should get banned ≠ obviously will get banned. You know, because there are so many MK mains and they have proven themselves good at stalling.

 

[6Mizu]

Yes, but too many MKs could also aid in him NOT being banned couldn't it?

I mean, I want him banned but I'm just wondering.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Veril is legit. DMG is legit.

Frame data tells us exactly what we need to know, yet is sadly ignored in many Brawl discussions.

 

[OverLade]

Veril is legit. DMG is legit.

Frame data tells us exactly what we need to know, yet is sadly ignored in many Brawl discussions.

People don't play frame perfectly though. According to frame data MK ***** everyone and snake is garbage. People don't react in 1 frame and powershield everything. Frame data tells you what's possible but not what people are going to actually pull off in a match.

 

[theunabletable]

MK doesn't have to grab the ledge.
MK can UpB onto the edge, and he can Tornado up and around the edge, landing in the middle of the stage.

Sounds incredibly punishable...

Because you've admitted he's broken.

Way to not answer my question.

@RedHalberd: NO. At perfect play MK doesn't **** everyone, ICs do. They can shield grab EVERYTHING with perfect shield SDI.

 

[Veril]

People don't play frame perfectly though. According to frame data MK ***** everyone and snake is garbage. People don't react in 1 frame and powershield everything. Frame data tells you what's possible but not what people are going to actually pull off in a match.

I've tried to argue this point with you in the past and thought we had some sort of understanding. 99.9% of people don't actually know how to apply frame data. Its not move x is faster than move y thus it wins lalalalaa... You apply the data to a discrete event.

Saying that frame data suggests Snake is garbage is ******** beyond belief, no offense. I know you mean that "an uneducated view of frame data" would suggest that Snake has limited options... until you look at knockback, range, advantage windows, and his throw game... So basically if you actually know what you're doing beyond just looking at the startup. Ie. if you aren't a n00b at quantitative analysis.

In the case of planking, its something that isn't especially difficult and the rewards for doing it correctly is uh... winning. People can perfectly plank, it is completely within the realm of what's humanly possible.

Sounds incredibly punishable...

um, no. especially if there are platforms. Moves that autocancel instantly (sup shuttle loop) aren't ever something you can call incredibly punishable. If you're reverse up-bing onto the stage it doesn't even enter the glide. Just... autocancels. Into BEING MK! Punishable? Yes. Incredibly punishable? LOLNO.

@RedHalberd: NO. At perfect play MK doesn't **** everyone, ICs do. They can shield grab EVERYTHING with perfect shield SDI.

That's not actually true. Shield SDI is limited by the amount of shield hit lag you've got and Nana still has the 6-frame input lag vs. Popo, so neither of them can always perfect shield. You also neglect to account for the ability to jump. Really just... no. Have you ever actually tried to play a match frame by frame? No, of course not, its boring as ****.

 

[Judo777]

Man do people really think that this game is a as simple as if "X player beats MK in a MM and that person isnt even the best with his char then the MU must be in his favor" There are sooo many things in game u have to consider. Do both players know the matchup? Was someone constantly trying to punish something they couldn't? Was someone playing their character differently than whoever the other person has experience with? Was the other person talking trash to mess with the other player? believe it or not all that crap matters A TON.

Oh yea guys well i have beat Hilt in brackets who has beaten YBM in brackets who has beaten Kel in brackets who had beaten Lain in brackets who has beaten M2K in brackets who has beaten Ally and ADHD in brackets so i guess im the best player in the world and sheik must be top tier for sure!

 

[OverLade]

I've tried to argue this point with you in the past and thought we had some sort of understanding. 99.9% of people don't actually know how to apply frame data. Its not move x is faster than move y thus it wins lalalalaa... You apply the data to a discrete event.

Saying that frame data suggests Snake is garbage is ******** beyond belief, no offense. I know you mean that "an uneducated view of frame data" would suggest that Snake has limited options... until you look at knockback, range, advantage windows, and his throw game... So basically if you actually know what you're doing beyond just looking at the startup. Ie. if you aren't a n00b at quantitative analysis.

In the case of planking, its something that isn't especially difficult and the rewards for doing it correctly is uh... winning. People can perfectly plank, it is completely within the realm of what's humanly possible.

I was just referring to Snakes grenades not being able to actively pressure because in theory everyone should powershield them within 1 frame and shieldrop the frame after etc etc as well as Snakes high cooldown lag moves. He will still be good by comparison to most characters, but not in comparison to MK and would have a 0-100 matchup against Dedede.

Sure you CAN apply frame data but imo almost everyone still does it wrong.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's why we can apply the reaction gap...


You're right, a ****-load of people suck HORRIBLY at applying frame data and theorycraft in general.

But, that doesn't mean it CAN'T be effectively analyzed.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

No, of course not, its boring as ****.

I have.

It is boring as ****, but incredibly hilarious.

 

[Veril]

I was just referring to Snakes grenades not being able to actively pressure because in theory everyone should powershield them within 1 frame and shieldrop the frame after etc etc as well as Snakes high cooldown lag moves. He will still be good by comparison to most characters, but not in comparison to MK and would have a 0-100 matchup against Dedede.

Sure you CAN apply frame data but imo almost everyone still does it wrong.

This post hurt me in the science. Grenades are insanely good on paper. That analysis fails on so many levels that I'm not even sure where to start.

You're right, a ****-load of people suck HORRIBLY at applying frame data and theorycraft in general.

The masses need educating...

I have.

It is boring as ****, but incredibly hilarious.

No you didn't. Not more than like the first 30 seconds. Here's how I know that's bs:

60 frames per second x 60 seconds in a minute x 8 minutes (cause every frame perfect match will be a time out) = 28,800 frames. Unless you spent all day playing this one match, it didn't happen. At least if you were controlling both or had a human opponent. CPU TAS matches are just complete ****.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I was spamming that Z-button TBH.

Edit: BTW, it was against the computer. So it wasn't a time out.

 

[6Mizu]

I was spamming that Z-button TBH.

Edit: BTW, it was against the computer. So it wasn't a time out.

Lol@trolls

 

[Veril]

Frame perfect reaction is impossible. This should be obvious. Frame perfect execution of inputs is possible, however. In brawl this is especially true because the technical demands are low. With Planking, you only need to time the first up-air properly. Everything else you've got a wide margin of error due to buffering.


With enough practice rote execution of known inputs is possible. Take Lucas's wavebounced zapjump. That requires frame perfect timing on the PKF input and assuming you aren't b-sticking (cause nobody does) you need to input the b-reversal on frame 2 or 3 of the pk-fire. Its tricky, but you can do it every time with enough practice. I'm not even gonna start on how tough some melee tricks are, but you get the idea.

Reacting to planking though...

Powershielding is part reaction time, part prediction, and part luck. Powershielding and then snapping to the ledge (which might not even work as a counteroption if it were executed frame perfect) is so much harder than planking because you can't rely on buffering OOS and need to wait for the exact right input frame for the QC a-stick input or you'll buffer a roll.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh, also I'm home now and on AIM.

 

[Turbo Ether]

People don't play frame perfectly though. According to frame data MK ***** everyone and snake is garbage. People don't react in 1 frame and powershield everything. Frame data tells you what's possible but not what people are going to actually pull off in a match.

People have been applying frame data in fightings for years, what makes Smash different? The problem is that most people in this community don't know how to. A lot of the documented frame data on the character boards is disgraceful too.

 

[theunabletable]

um, no. especially if there are platforms. Moves that autocancel instantly (sup shuttle loop) aren't ever something you can call incredibly punishable. If you're reverse up-bing onto the stage it doesn't even enter the glide. Just... autocancels. Into BEING MK! Punishable? Yes. Incredibly punishable? LOLNO.

Punishable enough. His ability to scrooge with an LGL, without gliding, isn't broken AT ALL.

That's not actually true. Shield SDI is limited by the amount of shield hit lag you've got and Nana still has the 6-frame input lag vs. Popo, so neither of them can always perfect shield. You also neglect to account for the ability to jump. Really just... no. Have you ever actually tried to play a match frame by frame? No, of course not, its boring as ****.

You don't get shield hitlag when you perfect shield, so it's not a matter of being able to PS stuff. And, so what, you hit my shield with an aerial, and if it's above grab range, I can shield SDI below you, jump OoS and UAir you.

And, YES, I have tested things frame-by-frame. Such as seeing what can be done with shield SDI (the only characters who would do well against a perfect ICs would probably be Zelda and Marth, due to having non-SDIable attacks), or finding true combos with Lucario (frame-wise Ftilt > Dash attack is a true combo unless you have inhuman SDI. Seriously ).

I was mostly joking when I said that frame perfect MK wouldn't **** everyone and that ICs could shield grab everything (they can't shield grab things like Marth's tippers IIRC, or Zelda's death kick due to not being able to SDI them). I'm not saying that this applies to practical play at all

 

[6Mizu]

Powershielding is part reaction time, part prediction, and part luck.

There is no such thing as luck about PS-ing, it's the first 2. No one can "lucky" have there finger slip on to the Shield Button.

 

[Dekar173]

lmao.

It's ridiculous, Veril knows more about Brawl's frame data than all of us combined, stop arguing with him- you'll only look stupid afterward.

 

[Turbo Ether]

There is no such thing as luck about PS-ing, it's the first 2. No one can "lucky" have there finger slip on to the Shield Button.

People often Perfect Shield crap when they may have intended to just Shield normally, because their opponent mistimed something. It happens all the time because Perfect Shield and regular Shield are attached to the same input. That's luck. When Marth reads Falco's spot dodge and uses Dancing Blade to punish, but Falco holds down the Shield button and Perfect Shields the next hit, the Falco got lucky.

 

[Mew2King]

^ that **** is so ****ing annoying

 

[Veril]

There is no such thing as luck about PS-ing, it's the first 2. No one can "lucky" have there finger slip on to the Shield Button.

orly

Perhaps I should have specified that while shielding is always intentional, powershielding isn't because of buffering. Since powershielding is based on the frame the shield appears on rather than input frame you can actually get a greater benifit from someone missing the right timing to punish lag by 4 frames or less as opposed to them missing it by 5 frames. If they miss it by more you can usually shieldgrab (most standing grabs hit on 6).

I don't know what word to use for it. Luck wasn't the right one... but its not intentional. Dumb powershield mechanic is dumb ;p

People often Perfect Shield crap when they may have intended to just Shield normally, because their opponent mistimed something. It happens all the time because Perfect Shield and regular Shield are attached to the same input. That's luck. When Marth reads Falco's spot dodge and uses Dancing Blade to punish, but holds down the Shield button and Perfect Shields the next hit, the Falco got lucky.

Ninja'd!

I taught this boy about shields (data wise)! "is proud"

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lmao.

It's ridiculous, Veril knows more about Brawl's frame data than all of us combined, stop arguing with him- you'll only look stupid afterward.

Anybody that actually does know frame data, doesn't argue with him. XD

 

[6Mizu]

orly

Perhaps I should have specified that while shielding is always intentional, powershielding isn't because of buffering. Since powershielding is based on the frame the shield appears on rather than input frame you can actually get a greater benifit from someone missing the right timing to punish lag by 4 frames or less as opposed to them missing it by 5 frames. If they miss it by more you can usually shieldgrab (most standing grabs hit on 6).

I don't know what word to use for it. Luck wasn't the right one... but its not intentional. Dumb powershield mechanic is dumb ;p

TY, there you go that's better than "luck".
But very good explanation of frame data though.

 

[OverLade]

This post hurt me in the science. Grenades are insanely good on paper. That analysis fails on so many levels that I'm not even sure where to start.

I was exaggerating people who talk about frame data with no respect to normal reaction speed.

For example people who say everytime MK tornados and it gets shielded he should get punished, don't realize that when MK mixes up how he DI's at the end of his landing and the time it takes the player to drop their shield, the window of punishment is smaller, plus you have to accurately follow/predict his DI (your characters options play a part in this as well).

Anyway chill out I agree with you I just have a way of saying things.

That's why we can apply the reaction gap...


You're right, a ****-load of people suck HORRIBLY at applying frame data and theorycraft in general.

But, that doesn't mean it CAN'T be effectively analyzed.

Yeah it can but just when people talk about "oh well the MK should be frame perfect on action X" it pisses me off which leads me to trolling and exaggerations when describing theorycraft.