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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Orion*

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MK isn't broken and or unbeatable. I just want people to stop pretending he isn't the best character by a huge margin, and that he doesn't dominate as well as make 3/4ths of the cast unviable from the get go.
i agree with this. although i also want to note that people dont realize that half the characters they ***** about being unviable are still unviable if mk gets banned. snake/diddy/falco/ics/marth/ddd make SOOO many chars not viable lmao
 

John12346

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MK still beats a large margin of the cast at CQC; planking, scrooging, and air camping aside

And also, that p value of .003 or w/e it was in the powerpoint means that the odds of 13 MKs placing equally with 2 Snakes the way they did means that the odds of such an event happening by chance is .003; not even 1%.

Oh, uh, that was @ Veril about the whole "Statistics are lies" thing. Taking AP Stat this year and I can vouch for that data.
 

OverLade

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^Wasn't that the one where Fatal beat Shadow in GF?
@DMG: I already mentioned this, but M2K trained a lot of the top MK mains. I think Inui made a post in here a looooong time ago that had all of the MK mains he trained. I know he tought Tyrant who is the 2nd best MK.Another reason he dominates is because he's so easy to learn. Compared to most of the other top tier characters his learning curve is extremely easy. Of course popularity and being the best character are still the biggest reasons, but they aren't the only reasons.
Yeah that goes back to our point about them being similarly skilled. But if you look at tournaments where they didn't play each other, Shadow always places higher (top 5 where Fatal I've seen vary from 33rd to 7th. Snake just doesn't perform as well as MK overall, even if they have an even matchup with each other. (of course you can prove me wrong by providing results, I'm just going off memory here)

Not that there isn't a crapload of other data supporting this, but that's the statement I was trying to make.
 

Chuee

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Melee Fox has 3 even MU's and 6 slight advantages.
MK has 6 MU's that are around slight advantage. Some of those can be argued for even.
 

OverLade

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Melee Fox has 3 even MU's and 6 slight advantages.
MK has 6 MU's that are around slight advantage. Some of those can be argued for even.
As of now Snake is the only matchup that can be argued even.

Diddy/Falco/ICs are all defined as about 55-45 and everything else is considered worse as worse.
 

Chuee

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Falco was at 50-50, people are just using DEHF as an arguement for it being 55-45.
Diddy is 55-45, but the Diddy boards discovered an infinite which would be **** if top Diddy's could learn it.
ICs? That MU is really weird. Some people say its 55-45 some say it's worse.
 

fkacyan

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ITT: People discuss matchup ratios.

GUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
 

OverLade

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Falco was at 50-50, people are just using DEHF as an arguement for it being 55-45.
I'm guessing you meant that backwards right? DEHF is the only reason anyone belives its 50-50. Most Falco players believe its 55-45 MKs favor.

Diddy is 55-45, but the Diddy boards discovered an infinite which would be **** if top Diddy's could learn it.
ICs? That MU is really weird. Some people say its 55-45 some say it's worse.
And MK can also do the same infinite back to diddy, that's all just theory craft. It doesn't affect matchup ratios until someone pulls it off enough to beat someone they wouldn't have beaten otherwise.

And most ICs mains say 60-40 I was just averaging.

Point is that MKs matchup ratios don't look like foxes lol.
 

Raziek

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Falco was at 50-50, people are just using DEHF as an arguement for it being 55-45.
Diddy is 55-45, but the Diddy boards discovered an infinite which would be **** if top Diddy's could learn it.
ICs? That MU is really weird. Some people say its 55-45 some say it's worse.
Haven't you been paying attention to the past few pages? Dekar and Gnes BOTH believe that Mk vs Diddy is worse than 55:45 if the MK knows how to play the match-up.

Falco only has a remote chance if he can't get planked, and even then, it's not even.

Nana gets ***** too hard for me to imagine ICs vs. MK is any better than 55:45.

Nobody goes even with MK.
 

Kewkky

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No they aren't.
Yes they are. You're just denying the fact that MUs are not being based around the official BBR rules, and they never take planking and scrooging into account, even though these tactics are not banned officially.
 

Chuee

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Haven't you been paying attention to the past few pages? Dekar and Gnes BOTH believe that Mk vs Diddy is worse than 55:45 if the MK knows how to play the match-up.

It is with planking.

Falco only has a remote chance if he can't get planked, and even then, it's not even.
k

Nana gets ***** too hard for me to imagine ICs vs. MK is any better than 55:45.
Nana gets ***** by like..........everyone.

Nobody goes even with MK.
Sure bro, whatever you say.
@Halberd: No, most Falco's have it as 50-50 without planking. They didn't put that ratio on their MU board just because DEHF said it was.

MK's MU's aren't Melee Fox's, but they aren't that far apart.

EDIT: Kewkky: They don't base MU's around planking and scrooging because those tactics hardly ever occur with most tourneys having LGL's.
 

etecoon

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@Halberd: No, most Falco's have it as 50-50 without planking. They didn't put that ratio on their MU board just because DEHF said it was.
character boards don't mean ****, and pretty sure that if you actually somehow polled every falco main in existence, the average would not indicate even
 

Chuee

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Yeah every Falco main lol.
That would include all the scrub Falco's that complain because they suck *** at this game.
 

DMG

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You don't have to be a genius to see that Falco does not go even with MK. (50-50)
 

etecoon

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Yeah every Falco main lol.
That would include all the scrub Falco's that complain because they suck *** at this game.
you're the one that started with the FALCO MAINS THINK IT'S EVEN, I never said that their opinions mattered, I'm just saying that you're wrong.
 

Karcist

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Jiggs KOs you at 0% ANYWHERE she wants. In the center of the stage an up tilt or Uair rest KOs most characters at 0 or very close to 0, and her edge guarding/gimping game is far above MKs
You're smarter than this dude. If you actually think that then don't throw around the word idiot.
 

OverLade

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@Halberd: No, most Falco's have it as 50-50 without planking. They didn't put that ratio on their MU board just because DEHF said it was.
The MK boards have it as 55-45. SEE WHAT I DID THERE

The captain falcon boards also agree that MK vs Falco is 60-40 Falcons favor. Matchup threads are very accurate and reliable.
 

Orion*

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ics would probably be in ics favor but, sadly theres one thing that makes it even. people arent computers.

then ics would be even if it werent for one other thing..... tripping :)

trust me if youve ever played ics seriously, tripping has cost you a lottt of games vs mk. and i dont mean, you drop a grab trip i mean, you trip and mk runs over and gimps nana for lols tripping.

air camping until nana trips = viable strat bro.
 

Dekar173

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Not to mention recently there's a few characters outside of top tier that have good MU's with mk (Pika, ZSS, & Fox).
Pikachu's worst match-up (to my knowledge) is a toss up between Marth and MK.

How is that doing well against MK? lmao.

ZSS, I am not knowledgeable enough to dispute this, same with Fox.



Except Larry has told me that TKD is probably the scariest person to play against on the entire West Coast, maybe the world (excluding M2K).

Considering TKD is the only Fox doing ANYTHING, I'd write him up as an outlier, instead of saying "omg fox beats mk!!!"



Someone please address this-

This game is EXTREMELY BALANCED without MK. Why wouldn't you want to get rid of the one thing holding this game back from being one of the greatest competitive games of all time?

@asakura- the only characters I know of with reliable "kill Nana!" strategies are ROB, Snake, and MK.
 

Kewkky

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EDIT: Kewkky: They don't base MU's around planking and scrooging because those tactics hardly ever occur with most tourneys having LGL's.
They still occur. Scrooging originated during tourneys with LGLs, in case you forgot... And even at tourneys with LGLs, planking occurs. You really don't NEED to live on the ledge t plank, you can just do so when you feel threatened. And Mk has 5 jumps and an invincible downB, he can grab the ledges in a variety of different ways and timings, enough to make sure he doesn't go over the LGL.

People just want to see their character do good vs MK, and saying "tourneys around are doing LGLs" or "every other board isn't counting planking and scrooging so why should we?" makes them feel like they're justifying their faulty MU conclusion. The fact of the matter is... If you're on a competitive smash website with official rules on competitive smash, and you're discussing Mus in the competitive smash website, wouldn't you have to base the MU around the rules in the website? It should always take priority over everything... And I know that a rampaging MK who can plank and scrooge, will not be a near-even MU for him, but in fact will be a bad MU.


Oh, and in my opinion, ZSS doesn't have a "good MU" vs MK. She has tools to do things, as does every character in the higher tiers, but MK just has an easier time doing anything. To beat MK consistently, you have to outskill them by a margin large enough for you to outplace the mainer you're playing against. Taking into account their skill and the MK multiplier (him being the unanimously unarguably best character increases your performance the most), you have to make sure you're THAT much better than them, or smart enough to stay one step ahead of them.

I bet SFP's gonna appear any time now to try and make me eat my words. I hope he reads that I said "in my opinion", which means in my own eyes as a ZSS player. :mad:

dekar, how realistically good would you be if diddy was banned?

I know the answer is definitely not close to how you are now

Its unfair to set players back 2 years since he is popular
So, are you saying that even if it's eventually proven true that MK is a hindrance and a vast majority of the competitive brawlers want him gone, you won't do it because people spent lots of time maining him, and it's unfair? You'd be willing to let the game die simply because people spent 2 years maining him? It would be THEIR fault for maining a character to this day which has been brought up for banning more than 4 times in the past without thinking that he COULD get banned at some point later, right or wrong?
 

dj asakura

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This game is EXTREMELY BALANCED without MK. Why wouldn't you want to get rid of the one thing holding this game back from being one of the greatest competitive games of all time?

@asakura- the only characters I know of with reliable "kill Nana!" strategies are ROB, Snake, and MK.
I mainly just want to quote this because of how much I agree with it.

And those may be the only characters with really reliable ways, but it's not insanely hard for anyone to gimp her.
 

dj asakura

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dekar, how realistically good would you be if diddy was banned?

I know the answer is definitely not close to how you are now

Its unfair to set players back 2 years since he is popular
But how is that the point? It's not even a popularity thing as someone already explained. He's not good because a large amount of people use him, a large amount of people use him because he's already good.

On top of that, we've created rules that attempt to keep MK balanced and in the game and many propose we make MORE rules to limit him instead of getting rid of him.
 

PottyJokes

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i still don't understand why the loser is supposed to get a huge advantage for LOSING. smash CP system is rly stupid.
 

Tarmogoyf

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People always say that, but they forget the IC player can just suicide and get a second chance.
higiuofweoijfeiojfwejiwijewipjegfijwfe

People also need to realize that ICs have no viable way to kill Mk when he has a stock lead and runs away, so they can;t get it back. Damage? Sure? Kill? Not gonna happen.
 

Orion*

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higiuofweoijfeiojfwejiwijewipjegfijwfe

People also need to realize that ICs have no viable way to kill Mk when he has a stock lead and runs away, so they can;t get it back. Damage? Sure? Kill? Not gonna happen.
i could say that for sooooo many characters.

and uair/bair kills if hes in the air - > if mk plays a ground game smashes kill fine also.
 

DMG

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Oh yes. Solo Popo is great against MK on the ground.
 
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dekar, how realistically good would you be if diddy was banned?

I know the answer is definitely not close to how you are now

Its unfair to set players back 2 years since he is popular
So, are you saying that even if it's eventually proven true that MK is a hindrance and a vast majority of the competitive brawlers want him gone, you won't do it because people spent lots of time maining him, and it's unfair? You'd be willing to let the game die simply because people spent 2 years maining him? It would be THEIR fault for maining a character to this day which has been brought up for banning more than 4 times in the past without thinking that he COULD get banned at some point later, right or wrong?
To make this even more blatantly obvious: if you are not starting to pick up snake/falco/diddy/wario/ICs/some other secondary, you are NOT helping your case. MK mains have had several months to see "whoops, this discussion is going downhill" and pick up a different character. One that isn't balls to the walls broken. Additionally, How do you feel about forcing us to drop our old mains of Marth, or ROB, or Wario, or DDD, or Olimar because you want to keep playing Metaknight? You're forcing us to change our mains to have a chance as well.
 

Orion*

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Oh yes. Solo Popo is great against MK on the ground.
solo popo in general sucks, unless its like against one of the chars he can cg to 15000003w849208 42 percent *cough foxer*

but hey, ive seen sopo beat mks (shadow), diddys (wyatt), never a snake but anything possible lol
 

PottyJokes

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@BPC

why should dk/bowser/mario/samus players drop their main to compete just because DDD players want to play their character?
 

Kewkky

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@BPC

why should dk/bowser/mario/samus players drop their main to compete just because DDD players want to play their character?
Why should EVERYONE drop their character to use the ones that can compete best against MK, even if the ones that compete the best are still disadvantaged? Why do you use that example, when both situations are completely different? WHY should even the mainers of popular higher tier'd characters have to change mains, and be compared to the few users of lower-tier'd characters when an argument against the problem THE ENTIRE CAST shares is brought up?

DDD's infinites are settled at more tourneys than the other way around, too. People have rules against standing infinites so that those mains WON'T have to change characters, believe it or not. And it has worked very well, DDD can't do his standing infinites since it's easily enforceable! And you know what else? LGLs were implemented to try and make MK less of a problem, and he learned that he could bend the rules by gliding under the stage! Tell me, do the examples sound the same still?

Are you still believing that a character that renders 4-5 characters useless and has an enforceable rule behind him against such action, can be compared to a character that can render any opponent's strategies useless and has no enforceable rules behind him against such actions?
 
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