Official Metaknight Discussion

[PottyJokes]

lol. i guess you guys seriously believe players are being carried by the character, it really baffles me how many of you actually think you'd stand a chance with MK banned. gl with the ban. i'm rooting for u guys.

 

[theunabletable]

And you know what else? LGLs were implemented to try and make MK less of a problem, and he learned that he could bend the rules by gliding under the stage!

So ban MK from gliding under the stage.

Is there a problem with that?

 

[Turbo Ether]

So ban MK from gliding under the stage.

Is there a problem with that?

No need to ban Mario Circuit. Just ban Dedede from chaingrabbing people across the stage into the blast zone.

Is there a problem with that?

Since people would rather ban the strategies that make MK broken, instead of the character itself, I propose that we unban every abusable stage, and just ban the strategies that make those banned stages broken.

Deal?

Let's ban every powerful strategy in the game. While we're at it, let's ban as many strategies as it takes to make every matchup in the game 50/50.

 

[Sails]

I can't be the only one who finds it hysterical that the original argument from many people was "Let the metagame develop some more, then we'll see" and now it is "It has been too long."

I've seen so many credible well thought-out reasons from the pro-ban side, yet the best the other side can do lately is say it has been too long?

By the way, from what I can tell the pro-ban side is very dominant postcount-wise in this thread, so what are the plans? Is there going to be another vote eventually? I'm quite interested in its results after all this time...

 

[Jonas]

@BPC

why should dk/bowser/mario/samus players drop their main to compete just because DDD players want to play their character?

Just secondary Falco or something for when you occasionally run into a DDD. You run into MKs all the time, so your secondary that you picked to "counter" MK (likely MK himself) becomes your main, really.

Besides if you're gonna main a ****ty character like Mario, Bowser or Samus, you should expect running into a bunch of gay matchups. In case of low tier characters, most high and top tier characters becomes problems, not just one character. A few otherwise good characters can't really do anything against MK.

 

[theunabletable]

No need to ban Mario Circuit. Just ban Dedede from chaingrabbing people across the stage into the blast zone.

Is there a problem with that?

Since people would rather ban the strategies that make MK broken, instead of the character itself, I propose that we unban every abusable stage, and just ban the strategies that make those banned stages broken.

Deal?

Let's ban every powerful strategy in the game. While we're at it, let's ban as many strategies as it takes to make every matchup in the game 50/50.

Meh that same logic can be applied to the LGL, which it, to me, seemed like he (Kewkky) agreed with having an LGL, and that MKs got around that with scrooging.

If an LGL is justified (that's a completely different debate), then how is a gliding under stage ban unjustified?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

but hey, ive seen sopo beat mks (shadow), diddys (wyatt), never a snake but anything possible lol

LMAO I did that to doom (My sopo cypher grabbed him)

 

[Turbo Ether]

Meh that same logic can be applied to the LGL, which it, to me, seemed like he (Kewkky) agreed with having an LGL, and that MKs got around that with scrooging.

If an LGL is justified (that's a completely different debate), then how is a gliding under stage ban unjustified?

I never said that a LGL is justified.

 

[theunabletable]

Good thing the original post I had made (#12809) wasn't replying to you, nor your claims in the slightest, only Kewkky's.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Except you quoted me.

 

[theunabletable]

...not in the post I'm referring to:http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10308922&postcount=12805

And then you replied to me, so I quoted you and replied using the logic used in my original post.

I was replying to Kewkky under the assumption that he thinks that an LGL is justified (and I even clarified that the debate over whether or not it is justified is completely different debate, and that I assumed that Kewkky thought that one was necessary/justified).

I replied to Kewkky, and that reply was based off of the assumption that Kewkky thought that one was necessary (which it seemed like judging from his post). The logic in that post is based off the assumption that the person I was replying to (Kewkky) thought that an LGL was justified. That post was only relevant to people who think than an LGL was justified.

Since you don't think that one is justified, then that post OBVIOUSLY doesn't apply to you, your opinions, what you think, etc.

TL;DR version: I'm saying that if you think that an LGL is justified (which it seemed like Kewkky thinks it is), then a scrooging limitation, such as banning MK from gliding under the stage, is justified as well. If you don't think an LGL is justified, then clearly I wasn't talking to you, nor was I talking to someone who I think (I could be wrong about Kewkky's opinions on LGLs, and if I am I apologize) shares the same opinions on LGLs as you.

Can we agree that if an LGL is justified that a scrooging limitation may be justified as well?

 

[Mew2King]

gliding under the stage being banned is easy it is something the japanese already use

if you glide under once you MUST land on the stage (ground) before going under again. Me and TKD both have this in our rulesets, along with 9 min timer

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

he is everything................................

 

[Mota]

dekar, how realistically good would you be if diddy was banned?

I know the answer is definitely not close to how you are now

Its unfair to set players back 2 years since he is popular

It wouldn't be setting people back 2 years.
Through the 2 years of playing Smash you improve in all areas (spacing, game knowledge w/e), all it is, is switching mains and carrying the skills you've learnt to a new character. People could switch mains right now and it definitely wouldn't take them 2 years to reach the same level as their previous main, what with the metagame already laid out in front of them, guides and discussions.

Someway people have switched their mains to have a chance against MKs and possibly winning a tournament.
Ally, DSF, atomsk, lain picking up MK much later in the game and taking out top players. Doesnt' look they're behind 2 years.

 

[Mew2King]

^ for the most part they just copied me though :[

DSF and Lain I have personally trained. Lain just recently, but DSF back at Critical Hit 3 less than a year after the game came out I believe
atomsk and ally both have told me that they learned a lot about mk stuff from stuff I do

 

[Mota]

Exactly, if MK was to be banned, MK mains could pick up a new character with relative ease. All the knowledge and videos is already available Watch and learn from the best.

 

[Mew2King]

it's not that easy. I've used strictly only MK for the past 2 years. Everything I know is MK-specific

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't be the only one who finds it hysterical that the original argument from many people was "Let the metagame develop some more, then we'll see" and now it is "It has been too long."

I've seen so many credible well thought-out reasons from the pro-ban side, yet the best the other side can do lately is say it has been too long?

By the way, from what I can tell the pro-ban side is very dominant postcount-wise in this thread, so what are the plans? Is there going to be another vote eventually? I'm quite interested in its results after all this time...

It has been too long; at this point, anti-ban can quite literally just shake their heads and say "no".

it's not that easy. I've used strictly only MK for the past 2 years. Everything I know is MK-specific

So wait-if we ban MK, you wouldn't be able to even start learning Marth/ICs/Falco/DDD because you would then magically suck at smash, amirite? Actually, didn't you main DDD for a while?

 

[Kewkky]

So ban MK from gliding under the stage.

Is there a problem with that?

To me it isn't. Like M2K just said, the japanese have been doing it for some time. We talked about that rule a large amount of pages back, and although I forgot what the development of the discussion was (the outcome was a bunch of people saying the rule sucked or something along those lines), I do remember that some of us were intent on finding a rule to limit the cheap strategies that can be done universally, and cover MK's with that same ruling, as well as Pit's (yes, Pit can scrooge better than MK since his glide speed is so much more faster than MK's... But that's all he has over MK).

My argument all this time since the beginning of this thread (and the threads before) has been to find a rule that covers pseudo-stalling techniques, or to redefine the concept of stalling, or do SOMETHING that removes the strategies universally from competitive play, and if the only option possible is to ban MK then so be it. The discussion keeps skewing in different directions, always tilting towards "MK's dominance is too large" or "making a rule to cover those things that wouldn't target MK specifically without hindering other characters is hard" or "gliding under stages is a legitimate strategy that MK, Pit and Charizard can do to avoid being pressured near the ledge, and recover safely. Taking that away from them simply because of it being able to be used to the degree of breaking the game would be unfair" and blah blah blah.

I can't look for the pages of the discussion, so you'll have to forgive me for that... I think it was back when Omni and Overswarm were still debating in this thread.

...not in the post I'm referring to:http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10308922&postcount=12805

And then you replied to me, so I quoted you and replied using the logic used in my original post.

I was replying to Kewkky under the assumption that he thinks that an LGL is justified (and I even clarified that the debate over whether or not it is justified is completely different debate, and that I assumed that Kewkky thought that one was necessary/justified).

I replied to Kewkky, and that reply was based off of the assumption that Kewkky thought that one was necessary (which it seemed like judging from his post). The logic in that post is based off the assumption that the person I was replying to (Kewkky) thought that an LGL was justified. That post was only relevant to people who think than an LGL was justified.

Since you don't think that one is justified, then that post OBVIOUSLY doesn't apply to you, your opinions, what you think, etc.

TL;DR version: I'm saying that if you think that an LGL is justified (which it seemed like Kewkky thinks it is), then a scrooging limitation, such as banning MK from gliding under the stage, is justified as well. If you don't think an LGL is justified, then clearly I wasn't talking to you, nor was I talking to someone who I think (I could be wrong about Kewkky's opinions on LGLs, and if I am I apologize) shares the same opinions on LGLs as you.

Can we agree that if an LGL is justified that a scrooging limitation may be justified as well?

Yep, your assumption is wrong. An LGL is unjustified to me. It targets all of the characters in the game, and stops some from executing their most safe yet still unsafe strategies, making them even worse characters, like Samus for example and her ledge-based camping game. It also targets characters who regrab the ledge many times each occasion to return to the stage safely, like tether characters and how their invincibility frames cover their getups when they use their tethers and buffer a getup (they grab the ledge, then drop it and tether it... That's 2 ledge-grabs in one sitting!). And the application of LGLs was what pretty much introduced scrooging into the game, since MK couldn't plank without fear of going over the ledgegrab limit, he found that scrooging is safer and that all the characters who are shaping today's metagame can't seem to beat his gliding speed or get him to stop gliding while he was under the stage.

It would've been a better idea to just bring it to the attention of the whole competitive scene once the problem has been shown to be spreading in popularity, and not just try to pull at its roots before they found out it wasn't a weed. We could've all discussed a better rule than LGLs, or at least, the BBR could... But one TO made a quick decision, and other TOs have been seeing it as a good answer to the unfair strategy MK can execute... And here we are.

gliding under the stage being banned is easy it is something the japanese already use

if you glide under once you MUST land on the stage (ground) before going under again. Me and TKD both have this in our rulesets, along with 9 min timer

I also thought the same thing. If they're using it, and (as it was brought to my attention) they also have some different ruling on Smashville than us, I had concluded that they already settled this whole problem... I don't remember exactly why people don't want to implement this rule, maybe it was they want to cover planking and scrooging with the same rule?

 

[theunabletable]

Sorry if I may have missed you answering this in your post, I merely skimmed because I was JUST getting to bed and decided I'd check my user CP before I went to bed and saw you posted, so I figured I'd reply, but what's inherently wrong with making the LGL MK specific? Sure it's unfortunate that we'd be limiting MK, but because we'd rather not limit other characters, and because MK probably won't be banned soon, an MK specific LGL seems like an okay bandaid (or possibly solution) for the time being, imo.

 

[Mew2King]

I also thought the same thing. If they're using it, and (as it was brought to my attention) they also have some different ruling on Smashville than us, I had concluded that they already settled this whole problem... I don't remember exactly why people don't want to implement this rule, maybe it was they want to cover planking and scrooging with the same rule?

cuz they'd rather use it as an excuse to ban MK instead of making the game better

 

[Kitamerby]

So wait-if we ban MK, you wouldn't be able to even start learning Marth/ICs/Falco/DDD because you would then magically suck at smash, amirite? Actually, didn't you main DDD for a while?

He may not magically suck at smash, but there is a very, very high chance that he would not be able to win tournaments, or possibly even place in the money at tournaments with current top players of other mains when suddenly forced to use a character other than the one that he's spent over two years perfecting. :V

If you spend all your time working on one character, learning every single trick and data that there is to learn about them, and almost no time on anyone else, then it becomes very, very hard to adapt to a character completely unlike the one you've been playing so far, and for a very good while, you will likely be performing very poorly.

 

[swordgard]

cuz they'd rather use it as an excuse to ban MK instead of making the game better

The game is, without any argument possible, better without MK. He is, even after all those restrictions, by far the best. If you remove a character that is alone in his own tier, when everyone else has specific counters and balanced CP stages, you are gonna get a more balanced game.

Now if you still believe Diddy is the best, thats your choice, except that I have seen you contradict yourself multiple times when trying to explain why ADHD lost to some MK players.

Numbers don't lie, MK da bess. Frame data also doesn't lie. If you can't accept that, you are merely showing how biased you can be. I have huge respect for your skills, but when you deny the obvious, to me it just sounds like you don't want to accept the fact that the game does not revolve around you making money.

If you were to accept that he is by far the best, then we could at least argue somewhat, because the question is whether it is worth removing the character or not despite these consequences. By refusing to accept MK is da bess, you can never be taken seriously, because no matter how much you believe you are right on this one, there is evidence on the other side.

 

[Mew2King]

It's very simple Swordgard ADHD got a LOT worse after Pound4. I watched him fight Tyrant and I saw the recent sets vs Shaodw and Atomsk and others and he is definitely not as good as he was at pound4. I wish there was as many good Diddies as good MKs so you could see that the Diddies would win in the end over the MKs. MK is certainly NOT by far the best. I would say he is obviously the best with all of the MLG stages on, but not with normal rules. There is no way I could believe that after all of the times that I have fought ADHD in his prime, and I am being completely serious. No MK EVER gave me NEARLY That much trouble, let alone repeatedly.

I don't care if in theory world MK shuts down stuff IN THEORY if you react to everything in 0.01 seconds, that's not realistic on a human level. Take down tilt for example. It comes out on frame 3 but it only trips about ~30% of the time, so often I would dash grab afterwords but what if someone decided to just spam spot dodge and I missed the dash grab. Guess what? I get hit because of that, while only doing like 5 damage to them with the down tilt. People could also just roll right after a down tilt, and unless MK knows EXACTLY What the opponent is going to do, there is NO WAY to just REACT to what they are doing. That's way too hard to just use reaction to cover every situation, and there are many ways out of things that people are like WELL THE FRAMESPEED FOR THIS MOVE IS SO GOOD so they will never try anything out. There is no way to just REACT to every single thing while always spacing perfectly to shut people down. On a realisitic level that just isn't possible, otherwise I would have been doing that all along

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Okay. So in theory MK shuts down everyone. In practice, statistically speaking, Metaknight destroys everyone else's results.

 

[Gnes]

It's very simple Swordgard ADHD got a LOT worse after Pound4. I watched him fight Tyrant and I saw the recent sets vs Shaodw and Atomsk and others and he is definitely not as good as he was at pound4. I wish there was as many good Diddies as good MKs so you could see that the Diddies would win in the end over the MKs. MK is certainly NOT by far the best. I would say he is obviously the best with all of the MLG stages on, but not with normal rules. There is no way I could believe that after all of the times that I have fought ADHD in his prime, and I am being completely serious. No MK EVER gave me NEARLY That much trouble, let alone repeatedly.

I don't care if in theory world MK shuts down stuff IN THEORY if you react to everything in 0.01 seconds, that's not realistic on a human level. Take down tilt for example. It comes out on frame 3 but it only trips about ~30% of the time, so often I would dash grab afterwords but what if someone decided to just spam spot dodge and I missed the dash grab. Guess what? I get hit because of that, while only doing like 5 damage to them with the down tilt. People could also just roll right after a down tilt, and unless MK knows EXACTLY What the opponent is going to do, there is NO WAY to just REACT to what they are doing. That's way too hard to just use reaction to cover every situation, and there are many ways out of things that people are like WELL THE FRAMESPEED FOR THIS MOVE IS SO GOOD so they will never try anything out. There is no way to just REACT to every single thing while always spacing perfectly to shut people down. On a realisitic level that just isn't possible, otherwise I would have been doing that all along

First Jason, did u guys ever think that maybe its not adhd has gotten worst, but that everyone has gotten better? Plus it really REALLY sucks how u keep stating that as an excuse, not only taking the wins from those respective players with a BS reason, but then trying to create a concrete argument out of it.


Secondly the issue with the f-tilt thing is...why exactly are u attempting preset combos that only have a 30% chance of working...it doesnt matter if d-tilt doesnt trip. Since it comes out on frame 3 u can safely pressure there shield. And lol at not being able to beat spot dodge. If ur hitting with d-tilt they have 3 general options, roll behind u(lmao)...retreat....or jump(lmao again). U have ample time to react to all of these moves.

 

[Mew2King]

Gnes - I really think ADHD got worse because I saw plenty of the videos and then I watched him play Tyrant.

Gnes did you know that you can just roll between the down tilts? The only way to punish that is to predict it. If you don't predict it, you can't punish it. Hardly anybody does this and I don't know why, maybe they don't know. I don't mean roll behind, I mean roll AWAY. A lot of characters can just jump between the down tilts also. Most people just get scared and sit in their shield as it shrinks though.

 

[swordgard]

First Jason, did u guys ever think that maybe its not adhd has gotten worst, but that everyone has gotten better? Plus it really REALLY sucks how u keep stating that as an excuse, not only taking the wins from those respective players with a BS reason, but then trying to create a concrete argument out of it.


Secondly the issue with the f-tilt thing is...why exactly are u attempting preset combos that only have a 30% chance of working...it doesnt matter if d-tilt doesnt trip. Since it comes out on frame 3 u can safely pressure there shield. And lol at not being able to beat spot dodge. If ur hitting with d-tilt they have 3 general options, roll behind u(lmao)...retreat....or jump(lmao again). U have ample time to react to all of these moves.

Nowadays, I drop my shield and shield again in order to PS>ftilt with snake. With Ics? Jump side b instantly.

 

[Crow!]

I don't care if in theory world MK shuts down stuff IN THEORY if you react to everything in 0.01 seconds, that's not realistic on a human level. Take down tilt for example. It comes out on frame 3 but it only trips about ~30% of the time, so often I would dash grab afterwords but what if someone decided to just spam spot dodge and I missed the dash grab. Guess what? I get hit because of that, while only doing like 5 damage to them with the down tilt. People could also just roll right after a down tilt, and unless MK knows EXACTLY What the opponent is going to do, there is NO WAY to just REACT to what they are doing. That's way too hard to just use reaction to cover every situation, and there are many ways out of things that people are like WELL THE FRAMESPEED FOR THIS MOVE IS SO GOOD so they will never try anything out. There is no way to just REACT to every single thing while always spacing perfectly to shut people down. On a realisitic level that just isn't possible, otherwise I would have been doing that all along

I like how, in the same breath, M2K lambasts non-MK players for not trying hard enough to play optimally while simultaneously making an excuse for not playing optimally himself.

So, let's be clear, then. M2K agrees that, in thoery, Meta Knight always wins.
This raises two points:

- If what matters is what happens in practice, we KNOW what happens in practice. Meta Knight players win, not all the time, but enough to perform somewhere between 2 and 3 times as well as players of equal skill level using the next best characters.

- As each character's metagame develops, they move closer to that character's in-theory optimum play. This means that the already humongous gap between Meta Knight and all other characters should grow over time. And MK in theory always wins over every other character... This, of course, is consistent with what we have seen in practice.

 

[Mew2King]

Crow humans do not have 0.01 second reflexes. Let's say MK is spamming down tilt on an opponent right? Now the opponent rolls, but he does it randomly and the MK does not EXPECT it, he is purely trying to REACT to it

guess what? By the time a human brain processes the fact that they rolled, YOU ARE ALREADY BUFFERING ANOTHER DOWN TILT, AND YOU CAN'T PUNISH IT

that's why I'm saying you can't base stuff off of that, otherwise every Fox in Melee would be doing stuff like powershield a move into some shine infinite to shinespike but we are nowhere NEARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR that level in melee even after 8 years.

it has nothing to do with optimal play, this is some theory argument that can not possibly ever come true in 100 years. It has to do with the fact that humans don't have 0.01 second reflexes to just react to everything immediately. The human brain has to process stuff, and by the time they see it happen they can't react to it especially when another move is already buffering (like a 2nd down tilt)

On a HUMAN level, I would argue diddy's down tilt is better than MKs. The total time is similar, the range is almost the same, but the damage output is way better. Diddy's down tilt once or twice into a dash attack up tilt combo is more reliable than MKs down tilt to dash grab. I would gladly have MKs down tilt be traded with Diddy's down tilt for such reasons, for a reliable good combo

 

[etecoon]

And MK in theory always wins over every other character... This, of course, is consistent with what we have seen in practice.

in theory you could argue that snake goes even with MK and history does seem to give some credit to that, but this is still a problem because MK will do much better overall not having any other even MU's while snake has to deal with DDD/olimar and a few evens, as well as being a more difficult character to be consistent with(most snake's I've seen have more extreme good/bad days than normal IMO)

 

[Gnes]

Gnes - I really think ADHD got worse because I saw plenty of the videos and then I watched him play Tyrant.

Gnes did you know that you can just roll between the down tilts? The only way to punish that is to predict it. If you don't predict it, you can't punish it. Hardly anybody does this and I don't know why, maybe they don't know. I don't mean roll behind, I mean roll AWAY. A lot of characters can just jump between the down tilts also. Most people just get scared and sit in their shield as it shrinks though.

Jason, all i've noticed is that mks starting to adapt. They've finally noticed his horrible fair habits(i admit, its hard to get rid of those urges) among other things, and have started to capitalize. U say he played bad, but when he was predicted to win Genesis, tyrant beat him. They play again, (wyatt predicted to place amazing @ pound) he wins again.

I said those options...by retreat i meant roll away. And i also said the jump option...but that puts u in a horrible position against mk.

And swordgard, thats why i said general options. I didn't want to try to put every chrs. individual options, just some generalized ones that could help get my point across.

Jason for diddys d-tilt, after being hit with the first one u can smash Di into the ground>buffer shield>retreat/shieldgrab. Dont get me wrong though, diddy's d-tilt is amazing, but, it has its flaws

 

[dj asakura]

I just want to throw this out there, but maintaining a good Diddy takes a lot of tech skill and practice. If you don't play a lot and often, you're going to dull with Diddy. He's a very tech oriented character so it makes sense that a player, even of ADHD's level, would lose when he doesn't have enough time to keep that tech skill high.

Even if, in theory, M2K believes the best Diddy is better than MK, it doesn't change the fact that there isn't a Diddy who's at a level to show the matchup is in Diddy's favor.

And on a side note, doesn't the simple fact that M2K has spent 2 years only playing and learning one character prove that MK is perhaps too dominant? I would say that pretty much any other main needs to pick up and learn a 2nd character to cover bad matchups, but by maining MK, you have no bad matchups or stages so learning a 2nd character is pointless. As I recall, he didn't spend all his time only learning one character in Melee (I know, I know. Melee example). He learned a few characters in order to cover those characters bad matchups. Without MK, people would likely have to pick up a 2nd to cover bad matchups liek they used to.

 

[Mew2King]

Gnes then why is Felix, who is nowhere near the level of ADHD, able to 3-0 atomsk and beat shadow in money matches and almost beat Tyrant the last time they played in a set. ADHD is a lot better than Felix. I think ADHD just got worse honestly

Also Gnes, I Told ally this a long time ago, but you know how some characters try to just sheild grab where you land

there's a frame trick I figured out a year and a half ago to get around that

you know how Diddy (or any character) can Fair like 1 or 2 frames before landing, but the opponent can shield grab it?

You can't react to that fair, you have to be guessing it

Now, a mix up you can use is a DOUBLE DODGE. That means an air dodge into a spot dodge right away. There are 3 frames vulerable that you can be hit while doing this.

This means that using a systematic timing for shield grabbing a specific spot (grab is 6 frames, so the first 5 frames you are vulnerable) cannot cover both options, the player has to guess.

So whenever you are seeing somebody try to shield grab your landing position, just mix up a last second attack (usually fair) with a double dodge.

The only ways around this are to either 1) expect it and aerial early (and hope diddy doesn't air dodge past you and punish you as you are lagging above him in the air or
2) expect it and wait extra long (for the lag of fair, or the 2nd spot dodge to be reacted to and punished)

Try that stuff out sometime. These are frame tricks I figured out a long time ago.

Even if, in theory, M2K believes the best Diddy is better than MK, it doesn't change the fact that there isn't a Diddy who's at a level to show the matchup is in Diddy's favor.

ADHD in his prime

 

[Akaku94]

Crow humans do not have 0.01 second reflexes. Let's say MK is spamming down tilt on an opponent right? Now the opponent rolls, but he does it randomly and the MK does not EXPECT it, he is purely trying to REACT to it

guess what? By the time a human brain processes the fact that they rolled, YOU ARE ALREADY BUFFERING ANOTHER DOWN TILT, AND YOU CAN'T PUNISH IT

that's why I'm saying you can't base stuff off of that, otherwise every Fox in Melee would be doing stuff like powershield a move into some shine infinite to shinespike but we are nowhere NEARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR that level in melee even after 8 years.

it has nothing to do with optimal play, this is some theory argument that can not possibly ever come true in 100 years. It has to do with the fact that humans don't have 0.01 second reflexes to just react to everything immediately. The human brain has to process stuff, and by the time they see it happen they can't react to it especially when another move is already buffering (like a 2nd down tilt)

On a HUMAN level, I would argue diddy's down tilt is better than MKs. The total time is similar, the range is almost the same, but the damage output is way better. Diddy's down tilt once or twice into a dash attack up tilt combo is more reliable than MKs down tilt to dash grab. I would gladly have MKs down tilt be traded with Diddy's down tilt for such reasons, for a reliable good combo

You're dodging his question. You both agree that MK dominates in theory, and while nobody can play frame-perfect, MK is clearly dominant regardless. In practice the same conclusions have been drawn out. There's no question that MK dominates the entire game, unless you delude yourself into thinking that Diddy is a counter to MK just because he's a counter to your MK. You tried to work Diddy back into the conversation with that last remark, but honestly, that was a pretty pathetic way to change the subject. It's obvious to me that while pro-ban keeps giving evidence afer evidence, reason after reason, you never answer our questions and you keep regurgitating the same points over and over, even when they don't hold any water. How about you answer his questions directly, then you can rant (again).

 

[Mew2King]

I'm not dodging any question, you guys are talking about perfect play for computers, not for humans. That argument should never hold any validity ever

edit - this is stupid, you guys don't listen to anything, I'm going to practice for MLG

 

[dj asakura]

Ok, then what about the level of play of a given human right now?

A human playing at their physical best using MK vs. another huamn playing at their physical best as another character, MK has the advantage.

 

[Mew2King]

Most of the time, yes, welcome to tiers and fighting games

 

[Laem]

m2k da bess

 

[dj asakura]

Holy cow, I've never played one before! Is that how it works?

The point is that, once again, MK has very little if anything going against him in any matchup on any stage.