Official Metaknight Discussion

[Dekar173]

I told you this last night Jason, MK takes the banana, and sits above Diddy- Diddy's options are gone.

Snake doesn't beat MK, as is evidenced by the fact that ... Ally, Razer, and HRNut do well (Anti too, who doesn't enter singles often,) and no one else. Now, who wins the tourneys? Not Snake. Snakes do well, but they don't win.

Diddys? We haven't won a real tourney in a long time (woot MKs good job!)

ICs? Knock nana off, get the lead, and time them out. GG, done and done.

D3? Co18 is the only rep, unfortunately, and he isn't what I'd call an MK slayer (because that match-up is very skewed).

Wario? Lololololololol. This match-up within the span of a year, went from "Wario's slight advantage" to "Wario's worst match-up" good job MK!

Marth? Mike's amazing, but he got destroyed by M2K just recently, and Tyrant right after that. According to Jason himself, this character is "****ing worthless"

Falco? The ONLY Falco main who even makes a dent in MK placings (or did, rather) is Larry, and guess what? He's picking up another character for that match-up (all because he doesn't wanna play MK dittos, and Falco can't handle MK).



No one touches MK, but MK himself. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to play MK dittos just because I want to go to tourneys. I'm going to stop playing Brawl, if that becomes the case.

Now ... what if we were to take MK out of the equation?



Balanced, at last.

 

[Gnes]

*****....u forgot to *tag in*

now we gonna get penalized...

 

[OverLade]

EDIT:
my post looks pointless next to Dekars...

 

[Turbo Ether]

I've always seen MK as Snake's hardest matchup, not DDD, Olimar, Falco or whomever.

 

[adumbrodeus]

20 points from pro-ban for not tagging out!

Yeah it can but just when people talk about "oh well the MK should be frame perfect on action X" it pisses me off which leads me to trolling and exaggerations when describing theorycraft.

Fair enough, but when it's a repeated sequence, with 10 frames of buffering, the only reason it shouldn't be done that way is sheer lazyness.


10 frames is a ridiculously easy window, all that's needed is practice.

 

[Nefarious B]

Who's larry playing to beat MK then?

 

[etecoon]

Snake doesn't beat MK, as is evidenced by the fact that ... Ally, Razer, and HRNut do well (Anti too, who doesn't enter singles often,) and no one else. Now, who wins the tourneys? Not Snake. Snakes do well, but they don't win.

fatal and candy are #1 in their respective regions and win constantly

 

[Dekar173]

Gnes I'm sorry

*runs behind the ref and doesn't get caught*

:D

etecoon, I thought Chudat/P~S were #1 in MD/VA ?

Fatal's region however, I'm unfamiliar with. I do know he's awesome

 

[etecoon]

etecoon, I thought Chudat/P~S were #1 in MD/VA ?

Fatal's region however, I'm unfamiliar with. I do know he's awesome

maybe they are now idk I haven't checked their PR lately but fatal is def the best in new england

 

[OverLade]

Fair enough, but when it's a repeated sequence, with 10 frames of buffering, the only reason it shouldn't be done that way is sheer lazyness.


10 frames is a ridiculously easy window, all that's needed is practice.

There, you're doing it again.

For example, lets use MK's Uair strings as an example. When you consider things like buffering, you have to consider changing conditions. You can't buffer your Uairs because you have to follow your opponents DI. You might want to do a Fair last time because you realize another Uair wouldn't connect. Reaction speed is important in this (the time it takes you to realize a situation has changed and by how much).

This is why people don't practice buffering certain things (like sidesteps) because you have to wait and see how the situation has changed and it may be too late to buffer by the time you realize.

For example, buffering sidesteps. I might sidestep my opponents grab, but depending on my opponents possible actions after the grab I might hold my shield, roll, sidestep again, or use my quickest move. You don't think in a straight line you think according to changing conditions. That's why a lot of frame data is useless because people don't process the game faster than moves end.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There, you're doing it again.

For example, lets use MK's Uair strings as an example. When you consider things like buffering, you have to consider changing conditions. You can't buffer your Uairs because you have to follow your opponents DI. You might want to do a Fair last time because you realize another Uair wouldn't connect. Reaction speed is important in this (the time it takes you to realize a situation has changed and by how much).

This is why people don't practice buffering certain things (like sidesteps) because you have to wait and see how the situation has changed and it may be too late to buffer by the time you realize.

For example, buffering sidesteps. I might sidestep my opponents grab, but depending on my opponents possible actions after the grab I might hold my shield, roll, sidestep again, or use my quickest move. You don't think in a straight line you think according to changing conditions. That's why a lot of frame data is useless because people don't process the game faster than moves end.

...

This is a very specific circumstance where he wants to buffer every time in order to get both of them invincible and get back to the ledge as soon as possible.


Normal uair juggling=/=frame perfect planking.


For most circumstances that aren't frame-perfect planking, I agree with you.

 

[Kole]

D3? Co18 is the only rep, unfortunately, and he isn't what I'd call an MK slayer (because that match-up is very skewed).

How about Atomsk?

I agree with the rest of your post for the most part though I guess.

 

[Chuee]

I told you this last night Jason, MK takes the banana, and sits above Diddy- Diddy's options are gone.

Dont understand what this means.

Snake doesn't beat MK, as is evidenced by the fact that ... Ally, Razer, and HRNut do well (Anti too, who doesn't enter singles often,) and no one else. Now, who wins the tourneys? Not Snake. Snakes do well, but they don't win.
Ally beats just about every mk except M2K, and even when they do play its always really close. Snake's don't win? Didn't Ally win Whobo2 recently?

Diddys? We haven't won a real tourney in a long time (woot MKs good job!)
ADHD be slackin.

ICs? Knock nana off, get the lead, and time them out. GG, done and done.
lol popo can kill himself. MU is hard for IC but it's not as easy as that lol.

D3? Co18 is the only rep, unfortunately, and he isn't what I'd call an MK slayer (because that match-up is very skewed).
Atomsk also reps D3. I saw a video of him beating Dojo's mk with D3 one match, but I heard he switched because Dojo figured him out next match.

Wario? Lololololololol. This match-up within the span of a year, went from "Wario's slight advantage" to "Wario's worst match-up" good job MK!
It's about tied with Marth.

Marth? Mike's amazing, but he got destroyed by M2K just recently, and Tyrant right after that. According to Jason himself, this character is "****ing worthless"
True, but I wouldn't say Marth is worthless lol.

Falco? The ONLY Falco main who even makes a dent in MK placings (or did, rather) is Larry, and guess what? He's picking up another character for that match-up (all because he doesn't wanna play MK dittos, and Falco can't handle MK).
M2K and Tyrant are just better than him.




No one touches MK, but MK himself. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to play MK dittos just because I want to go to tourneys. I'm going to stop playing Brawl, if that becomes the case.
The only MK that goes "untouchable" is M2K and thats because he's extremely good at this game.

Not to mention recently there's a few characters outside of top tier that have good MU's with mk (Pika, ZSS, & Fox).

 

[PottyJokes]

when an MK main wins, its because hes being carried by his character.

when another character wins its because the player is extremely skilled.

i finally understand. thank u for enlightening me pro ban

 

[6Mizu]

when an MK main wins, its because hes being carried by his character.

when another character wins its because the player is extremely skilled.

i finally understand. thank u for enlightening me pro ban

Your dumb. Even if this is true sometimes...NM
Don't post things like that.

 

[Raziek]

@ Chuee

Ally =/= Snakes.

 

[Chuee]

M2K =/= MKs

 

[Roie]

M2K =/= MKs

Game balance is reflected in the context of the current metagame - that is, the best players of each character.

 

[Raziek]

M2K =/= MKs

This is true, but then I can just point out all the other MK's that are winning tourneys, which is about 10-12 MAJOR names. Snakes have what, 2, MAYBE 3?

 

[PottyJokes]

@Roie

In that case snake is the best char in the game. seeing as how he wrecks every single MK, and has a winning \record vs m2k.

 

[Chuee]

This is true, but then I can just point out all the other MK's that are winning tourneys, which is about 10-12 MAJOR names. Snakes have what, 2, MAYBE 3?

I could point out snake's winning tourneys too.
Snake has like 3 maybe 4 winning tournies. I think M2K trained Tyrant and some other MKs. Most of the other MKs are about around the level of the other snakes.

 

[Raziek]

I could point out snake's winning tourneys too.
Snake has like 3 maybe 4 winning tournies. I think M2K trained Tyrant and some other MKs. Most of the other MKs are about around the level of the other snakes.

You still can't seriously try to compare Snake's tournaments result's to MK's.

If you insist on further arguing this point, I'll preemptively direct you to Crow's chart which shows that that claim is a massive load of horse dung.

 

[1048576]

Stats don't lie. The top 13 MKs are as good as the top 2 Snakes. See Crow's powerpoint.

 

[Chuee]

Fatal and Shadow are around the same level.
Dojo is better than Razer.

It's hard to compare some of the snake mains to other MK mains since some haven't even played, but the skill gap between the top snake mains not Ally, and the top MK mains outside of top 4 or 5 probably isn't really that big.

 

[OverLade]

Fatal and Shadow are around the same level.
Dojo is better than Razer.

It's hard to compare some of the snake mains to other MK mains since some haven't even played, but the skill gap between the top snake mains not Ally, and the top MK mains outside of top 4 or 5 probably isn't really that big.

I actually agree with this post.

10thumbs up.

 

[Raziek]

Fatal and Shadow are around the same level.
Dojo is better than Razer.

It's hard to compare some of the snake mains to other MK mains since some haven't even played, but the skill gap between the top snake mains not Ally, and the top MK mains outside of top 4 or 5 probably isn't really that big.

It's not about skill, it's about placings. Fatal may be the same skill as Shadow, but SHADOW PLACES BETTER.

Having 13 MKs placings at the same level as the Top 3 Snake is not an accident of skill, it's clearly the character.

Not to mention, if Snake WAS that good, more people would be placing with him. They're not.

 

[OverLade]

It's not about skill, it's about placings. Fatal may be the same skill as Shadow, but SHADOW PLACES BETTER.

Having 13 MKs placings at the same level as the Top 3 Snake is not an accident of skill, it's clearly the character.

Not to mention, if Snake WAS that good, more people would be placing with him. They're not.

That's the thing. Assuming MK vs Snake is even, similarly leveled MKs and Snakes will go close with each other...BUT like you pointed out, the MK players will always place higher on average and more consistently.

 

[Chuee]

It's not about skill, it's about placings. Fatal may be the same skill as Shadow, but SHADOW PLACES BETTER.

Having 13 MKs placings at the same level as the Top 3 Snake is not an accident of skill, it's clearly the character.

Not to mention, if Snake WAS that good, more people would be placing with him. They're not.

Just got through reading the rankings thread.
Fatal is ranked 9th.
Right below Shadow.
Fatal has more wins than Shadow.
Candy is ranked 13th, with only 9 tournies recorded for the rankings. Almost everyone else has 15+ tournies.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262480

 

[John12346]

It's not about skill, it's about placings. Fatal may be the same skill as Shadow, but SHADOW PLACES BETTER.

Having 13 MKs placings at the same level as the Top 3 Snake is not an accident of skill, it's clearly the character.

Not to mention, if Snake WAS that good, more people would be placing with him. They're not.

The thing is, however, some people actually use Snake's counters in tourney play, despite the constant threat of MK around...

 

[DMG]

If a character is only good/dominant because it is popular, then MK would still be overwhelmingly better than Snake because as many people put it "Naw MK is only good cause M2K taught people and the masses play him and no one wants to play as Snake so he's underrated and really actually close to MK). If a character's popularity is no measure of dominance, then explain MK winning a lot more than Snake if you can't attribute popularity to it.

He's widely used because he's freaking good people. I don't believe in using the popularity argument for banning a character, because you could have a situation where a bad character dominates just cause everyone in tournament plays him, but this clearly is not the case. The counter argument that he is only good because he is popular doesn't make sense, it's the reverse. He is good, therefore popular, not becoming good through that usage.

Lol the rankings thread. I don't find that entirely accurate. As M2K or someone put it, it's a stronger indicator of how well people actually do in their own region.

Actually if you want to use those numbers as an argument, the top half of the rankings is dominated by MK. The argument that top players do fine against MK would seem to contradict the top 50ish players players on there, for the most part, either maining or seconding MK with a few of the notable other character mains sticking out.

 

[rvkevin]

FYI, Fatal has used MK to get by Olimar to win tourneys in the past...

 

[OverLade]

Just got through reading the rankings thread.
Fatal is ranked 9th.
Right below Shadow.
Fatal has more wins than Shadow.
Candy is ranked 13th, with only 9 tournies recorded for the rankings. Almost everyone else has 15+ tournies.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262480

But that's placing in RESPECTIVE region.

Look at nationals where both Shadow and Fatal were in attendance and then show me the statistics.

 

[Chuee]

Theres more reasons to why MK's tourney placings are high above any other character besides popularity and him being the best character.

EDIT: Halberd, link me to results of nationals where both have attended.
Found Pound 4 results. Fatal placed 17th Shadow placed 5th.
Fatal got a hard *** bracket though. Had to play both ADHD and DEHF.
Didn't find anything else =/

 

[OverLade]

Theres more reasons to why MK's tourney placings are high above any other character besides popularity and him being the best character.

EDIT: Halberd, link me to results of nationals where both have attended.

I can tell you that MLG orlando will probably be the one exception and Shadows bracket was almost 100 times harder than Fatals. Aside from that prove me wrong. Snake doesn't perform nearly as well as MK. I'm sure we can crunch these statistics for other snake and MK player combos as well if need be.

You could also argue that Snake players don't travel as much because snake doesn't perform well easily in nationals.

edit:
I don't have a list of tourneys both have attended but I'm sure most of them will be tourneys in New Jersey (Viridian City). There should be a way for you to find out though.

 

[DMG]

Why is MK high above any other character BESIDES popularity and/or how good he is? There is literally no other reason a character CAN dominate unless he is either extremely popular or extremely good (or both). Dominance is literally winning a majority of the time, winning a majority of the time suggests enough popularity for him to dominate.

 

[Veril]

Stats don't lie. The top 13 MKs are as good as the top 2 Snakes. See Crow's powerpoint.

of course statistics lies. All the time. 99% of statistics are lies including this statistic.

Analysis of tournament placings reflect the that MK is popular and the best character competitively. They don't show that he's worth banning. I hesitate to use the word broken because its so subjective and every top character has broken qualities. MK has better broken qualities than most but only in one respect does he make the game unplayable and as I've already posted I believe that absolutely airtight, meticulous work will be required to actually warrant a ban or character specific limits.

MK doesn't always win irl. And people only say MK always wins on paper, he doesn't. The only way he makes the game unplayable is with perfect planking. I believe he is the only character who makes this game unplayable with ledge-stalling. This tactic might make some characters have vastly skewed matchups... but this is brawl, defined by hard counterpick options and MK. People will not learn to deal with non-MK planking if their is a universal LGL in place. The metagame will remain artificially stagnated for one character who has clever ways to bypass the limits.

I still consider myself against a MK ban because the evidence has not yet been produced to the degree that it is completely irrefutable (in which case I would support an MK specific limitation). Tournament and high-level play will not reveal this because planking is banned. It is possible to do though (see previous posts).

And... I am intrigued. If I can prove that MK's perfect planking is absolutely unbeatable, what then? There's an infinitesimal chance I find a viable strategy to beat it via massive analysis. If there is literally ANY possible way to beat it at all I will find it.

 

[etecoon]

I don't have a list of tourneys both have attended but I'm sure most of them will be tourneys in New Jersey (Viridian City). There should be a way for you to find out though.

they were both at DNA3 in mass which wasn't TOO long ago

 

[OverLade]

MK isn't broken and or unbeatable. I just want people to stop pretending he isn't the best character by a huge margin, and that he doesn't dominate as well as make 3/4ths of the cast unviable from the get go.

 

[Chuee]

^Wasn't that the one where Fatal beat Shadow in GF?
@DMG: I already mentioned this, but M2K trained a lot of the top MK mains. I think Inui made a post in here a looooong time ago that had all of the MK mains he trained. I know he tought Tyrant who is the 2nd best MK.Another reason he dominates is because he's so easy to learn compared to the rest of top tier Of course popularity and being the best character are still the biggest reasons, but they aren't the only reasons.

EDIT: Halberd, MK doesn't make 3/4ths of the cast unviable.
He may hard counter about that many, but hard countering them doesn't mean that he makes them unviable. Most of those have other hard counter MU's besides MK.
He's definitely the best character by a large margin with planking and scrooging. Without those he still the best by a good margin but not a huge margin.

 

[etecoon]

^Wasn't that the one where Fatal beat Shadow in GF?

yep, and shadow beat him the month before. they go about even but shadow would do better overall because MK doesn't have a DDD or an olimar to worry about(or even any even matchups of which snake has numerous)