Official Metaknight Discussion

[JRob]

Just wanna throw this out here... Does anyone find Japan's rule on scrooging acceptable at any degree? The whole "going under the stage twice is forbidden, you must touch ground after the first scrooge in order to be able to do the second scrooge (...)"?

lol...

If not now, at what point would you ban the character and not his tactics?

This whole discussion is stupid/silly.

 

[Kewkky]

lol...

If not now, at what point would you ban the character and not his tactics?

This whole discussion is stupid.

I'm pro-ban.


-_-



I'm just being smarter than you and looking at the other options as well.

 

[JRob]

Options?
What other options are there?
Limit his use of platforms?
Take away MK players' stage ban and option to counterpick?

The whole reason we're even discussing this is because the community would rather to appeal to the growing number of Meta Knight players and limit the character rather than get rid of him.

This whole thing is silly.

I'll ask my question again: At what point do you say "hey, let's ban the character rather than limit him"?

 

[MarKO X]

Just like how Peach Bomber and Rising Pound stalling were part of the game and programmed to do those exact effects? Why did those get banned?

you can't perform those techniques on every stage afaik. you can plank on nearly every stage on the given stage list for tourneys.

As soon as the MK (or character) is able to make it to the ledge, there really is no reason for him to wait on the ledge any longer. Once the opponent gives the space and you realize that he's half a stage away at least, you're obligated to leave the ledge. You can bend it and regrab like 2 more times or something (doesn't matter the number), but does it affect the game as much as no limitations to planking?

The reason for MK to wait on the ledge longer is because he has the lead and the timer is on.
What if I don't feel half a stage away is safe enough for me to get on the ledge, especially if the opponent has a way to attack me immediately?
No limitations on planking are bad, but this limitation is just as bad. You're basically allowing MK plank in spurts. I come on the stage, you attack me, I'm thinking, wow this isn't safe, I retreat back to the ledge. Opponent pressures, I plank, he can't get to me, he goes back to the other side of the stage, I wait a little while longer, I get back on the stage, opponent attacks, dat aint safe, etc.

MK (or the character) is still achieving a position where the opponent can reach him, and not deliberately (and excessively) avoiding any and all contact between both players. Dodging attacks means that he's in danger of being hit, and that's exactly what I want happening... Plankers+scroogers being vulnerable.

Right, brokenness in spurts isn't as bad as infinite brokenness.

Some surgical changes are better than global changes. Chaingrabs were limited until 300%because they could be executed indefinitely, thus stalling the game. Is it a global change or a surgical change? A global change would've been to ban all the characters capable of chaingrabs, but which is a smarter approach to the situation? I believe there's a best choice for everything, and although global changes are great, it isn't always the best choice... More like a "last resort" unless it as a first resort IS the best answer (which may not be the case here).

Some surgical changes are better than global changes. That, I can agree with. But in this case, I don't believe it is so.

I dunno, ask IDC.

I don't quite remember the point here, but if it is what I think it is, not everyone can IDC. Everyone can plank.

In all seriousness, the tactic proves to be THE most effective tactic by a decent margin, and also has a negative effect on gameplay everywhere. Usually, we'd have to wait to see if this is true, but in tourneys with no LGLs we've seen it to be true already.

With what characters?
inb4MK.
it's beatable against the other "plankers" do you agree?

See, I'd be against removing the air fireball... Is it the Akuma player's fault if he mashes in the air and accidentally activates an air fireball? He was conscious of the rule and was never gonna do it, but whoops! An accident and he did it! What happens now?

it's not as easy to accidentally do an air fireball (the stick/dpad must go to neutral first), but I understand. However, I'm still confused as to what happens if the opponent consistently decides to go back to the ledge and take various amounts of time to get back on the stage if the opponent decides to not pressure him.

See, moves and tactics are different in the sense that tactics are much more complicated to execute. Banning IDC was easy because it requires the opponent to mash up on the c-stick right after doing a downB, it literally makes no sense why a person would want to mash up on the cstick besides IDCing. An air fireball is done by a quick flick of the fingers and a button press, planking isn't.

agreed, but it can still be banned.

Why aren't walkoffs allowed, even though they're part of the game? Me as a DDD player can chaingrab to the other side and then DECIDE to let you go without killing you... But come on, do you honestly expect me to do so when money's on the line? I'll chaingrab you all 3 times off the edges if I have to in order to make dat ther money. What makes you think MKs won't plank if they grab the ledge with an advantage? Honor? Sad thing is, that's exactly why MKs don't plank as much as they should: Honor.

Walkoffs are allowed, but the stages where walkoffs are most eminent are banned. There is nothing that says you can't do a walkoff on the portions of Delfino that allow it. (lol strawman)

Honor might be the reason that MK's don't plank as much as they should, but it's there decision. You shouldn't force "honorable" rules onto games, otherwise you could force "honorable" rules on CGs or "honorable" rules for Warlock and Falcon Punches.

If MK is planking too good for me to deal with it (as DMG's thread shows), is it my fault that I can't beat a broken strategy? If Pit is constantly scrooging and faking scrooging in order for me to run to the other edge from time to time, is it my fault that I can't catch up to him or beat the strategy?

Yes, and no.
No in that I agree it's a game breaking tactic.
Yes in that you shoulda picked a character that can deal with it.

Even though I abhor hearing examples of horrid players who can't punish easy-to-punish things (like Ike's ledge game or Mario's upB regrabs), I have to admit that they're realistic situations... Well, let's see if I can think of some other suggestion that doesn't affect gameplay, besides planking+scrooging then.

Pit can scrooge, so he can be pretty broke if done right... Scrooging is a pretty broken tactic, after all. G&W has his uair planking which is slightly worse than MKs due to it not letting the opponents grab the ledge, and if they do G&W can upB them out of the ledges/upB onto the stage. Marth's planking can be handled a LOT easier than the other examples, but people usually just give Marth the space to recover since a tippered ledgedropped uair hurts more than an MK ledgedropped uair.

In all of the scenarios, people usually have no choice but to retreat to a safe position and allow the opponents to complete a recovery or get back onto the stage normally. What my suggestion would do is MAKE the opponents recover instead of exploit the broken defense that ledge-play allows them to achieve (such as planking+scrooging).

If planking was broken with all the characters, then I would think that making the opponent have to come up off the ledge would be an interesting suggestion (although the problems I mentioned would still exist in terms of what's the right distance, how long the opponent is allowed to stay on the ledge, etc.) but it's really proven to be broken with one character. That's my other problem with your suggestion.

 

[MarKO X]

Just wanna throw this out here... Does anyone find Japan's rule on scrooging acceptable at any degree? The whole "going under the stage twice is forbidden, you must touch ground after the first scrooge in order to be able to do the second scrooge (...)"?

You touch the ground, and then you can immediately scrooge again.
Combined with your suggestion, this is murder. lol

 

[Kewkky]

Options?
What other options are there?

The ones you and I can't name off the top of our heads, maybe.

The whole reason we're even discussing this is because the community would rather to appeal to the growing number of Meta Knight players and limit the character rather than get rid of him.

The point is to find a compromise, so as to have a larger amount of players satisfied. If we can satisfy a larger number of players than what pro- or anti- have at the moment (like a mix of both), then why shouldn't we explore other options? Brainstorming oftentimes comes across bad ideas, but with the help from other people and their feedback on such ideas, we can separate the bad choices from the good, and keep basing future suggestions on the good choices until we find an acceptable solution by a larger majority than each side has.

You just want the easy way out and would much rather not waste time trying anything.

I'll ask my question again: At what point do you say "hey, let's ban the character rather than limit him"?

You're asking for a ban criteria, and I can't give you that because our own criterias are subjective. There's not one (as far as we know) that we can apply to these situations, so your question has no answer.

... Unless you mean my own criteria for banning a character?


Oh, and it's not my fault no one wants to work on this (as far as I know, maybe the BBR has been working on something about this). You're used to the BBR having all the answers and criticizing negatively whatever you see that you don't like... I'm sure the BBR sees it as a blessing having their forum private, and not having to deal with lazy people who would put off everything and just wait for an official announcement that can't be denied.

 

[Nanaki]

I appreciate that you're trying to start from the ground up, but a rule that allows one player to literally force an action out of another is just totally ridiculous. The premise is flawed, it will NEVER work.

Strawman inc., but trust me, it's going somewhere.

I'm DK. I'm playing a DDD (got double blinded, or whatever. Just roll with it). It's obvious that the infinite CG breaks this matchup, even if it's limited to 300%. There's no real true way around it besides almost blind luck or a huge discrepancy in skill levels.

When DDD grabs me, can I just yell 'STOP!' and force him to stop because it's unfair for me? Because the matchup is broken? Once he lets go (bthrow, whatever), the match can continue like he never grabbed me.

If we're going to implement your 'anti-planking' rule, I demand that this one be put into effect as well.

A better place to start might be a rule like 'MK cannot downB from a ledgedrop' or something along those lines. At least then he's a little vulnerable on each ledgedrop, guaranteed.

 

[Kewkky]

I appreciate that you're trying to start from the ground up, but a rule that allows one player to literally force an action out of another is just totally ridiculous. The premise is flawed, it will NEVER work.

Strawman inc., but trust me, it's going somewhere.

I'm DK. I'm playing a DDD (got double blinded, or whatever. Just roll with it). It's obvious that the infinite CG breaks this matchup, even if it's limited to 300%. There's no real true way around it besides almost blind luck or a huge discrepancy in skill levels.

When DDD grabs me, can I just yell 'STOP!' and force him to stop because it's unfair for me? Because the matchup is broken? Once he lets go (bthrow, whatever), the match can continue like he never grabbed me.

If we're going to implement your 'anti-planking' rule, I demand that this one be put into effect as well.

A better place to start might be a rule like 'MK cannot downB from a ledgedrop' or something along those lines. At least then he's a little vulnerable on each ledgedrop, guaranteed.

It's why I asked for feedback and didn't adhere to my suggestion as "the only answer". Of course it's gonna be flawed.


... I would really love to see what the BBR are saying about the whole MK situation, or anything regarding it.

 

[BSP]

A better place to start might be a rule like 'MK cannot downB from a ledgedrop' or something along those lines. At least then he's a little vulnerable on each ledgedrop, guaranteed.

Nah, let's just ban MK's down B fully.

Jokes aside, I agree that would should try to find some compromise before outright banning him, but it's getting a little tedious.

LGLs, banning/implementing certain things specifically because of MK,...IDK.

Did anyone ever come up with an anti-scrooging rule?

 

[OverLade]

*Checks wallet from last nights tourney*

*Goes anti ban*

GGs.

 

[Nanaki]

It's why I asked for feedback and didn't adhere to my suggestion as "the only answer". Of course it's gonna be flawed.


... I would really love to see what the BBR are saying about the whole MK situation, or anything regarding it.

There's probably a very good reason they're keeping it under wraps. A situation as big as this one definitely demands attention, and I don't doubt it's getting plenty in the BBR.

Nah, let's just ban MK's down B fully.

Jokes aside, I agree that would should try to find some compromise before outright banning him, but it's getting a little tedious.

LGLs, banning/implementing certain things specifically because of MK,...IDK.

Did anyone ever come up with an anti-scrooging rule?

The best part is that for a very long time people considered downB to be one of MK's very worst moves. I mean, the regular (non-IDC) version onstage is still terrible lol.

My personal opinion is that he's just too broken to properly fix without adding a huge slew of rules that may or may not have the intended effect, and will certainly alter gameplay drastically. I'm certainly hopeful for a good suggestion, though.

Edit:

*Checks wallet from last nights tourney*

*Goes anti ban*

GGs.

lol good **** at hobo Red. How much did you end up making for winning dubs and 2nd in singles?

 

[TLMSheikant]

*Checks wallet from last nights tourney*

*Goes anti ban*

GGs.

Nooo, I liked u as a pro ban. GG

 

[demonictoonlink]

*Checks wallet from last nights tourney*

*Goes anti ban*

GGs.

Too. ****ing. Good.

I love it when someone who talks as much **** as you do ***** as hard as you did. <3

 

[OverLade]

I didn't win the tourney so I can't say "MK is broken and dominates everything" lol.

MK beats Diddy at least 55-45 imo (I had to play Dao, Gnes AND Fliphop) and I feel like I still have a lot of room to improve in the matchup compared to Dojo. Vids will be up later of that.

Snake seems to go even with MK when you actually man up and camp. I didn't have a lot of trouble beating Razer in WF because he tried to punish with thing dashgrabs/dash attacks a lot and sidestepped a lot as well. When you literally drop one nade and sit and wait for MKs approach, Snake can fight MKs options pretty solidly, and juggling a snake who recovers well is pretty hard.

More people should man up and pick up Snake/Falco/Diddy imo before they complain about MK. He's clearly the best in the game, but not unbeatable.

I won't support Anti ban because their arguements are garbage but this game would be boring without MK...

Sorry guiz.

edit:
I won like 140$ from 2nd in singles and dubs.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You can edge-hog Sheik out of that ledge stall.

A little late, but according to Mew2King you cannot edge-hog Sheik if you do the up-B stall perfectly in Melee. And by perfectly, also according to Mew2King, you have something like a 8 or 9 frame window where you can make a mistake and still do it "perfectly".

 

[MKOwnage]

Why dont we just ban Jigglerpuff and call it good?

 

[MarKO X]

rofl.
i looked at HOBO 23's rules.
those rules **** MK's full potential.

 

[Kewkky]

Why dont we just ban Jigglerpuff and call it good?

Cuz Jigglerpuff (insert random comment here). Isn't it obvious?

Brawl WOULD be more boring without MK... But maybe that's the illusion we've created due to playing in a game with lots of MKs everywhere.

 

[PottyJokes]

since red lost to razer that makes him apparently 3-27 times worse than him.

 

[MKOwnage]

I didn't win the tourney so I can't say "MK is broken and dominates everything" lol.

MK beats Diddy at least 55-45 imo (I had to play Dao, Gnes AND Fliphop) and I feel like I still have a lot of room to improve in the matchup compared to Dojo. Vids will be up later of that.

Snake seems to go even with MK when you actually man up and camp. I didn't have a lot of trouble beating Razer in WF because he tried to punish with thing dashgrabs/dash attacks a lot and sidestepped a lot as well. When you literally drop one nade and sit and wait for MKs approach, Snake can fight MKs options pretty solidly, and juggling a snake who recovers well is pretty hard.

More people should man up and pick up Snake/Falco/Diddy imo before they complain about MK. He's clearly the best in the game, but not unbeatable.

I won't support Anti ban because their arguements are garbage but this game would be boring without MK...

Sorry guiz.

edit:
I won like 140$ from 2nd in singles and dubs.

First of all I agree with you.
Second of all, Ive seen you on Tube arguing with that 0-IQ 1990 nintendo kid.
XD

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264493

MetaKnight Ledge Grab Limit Rule and Metaknight stage rule

ALL METAKNIGHTs that enter a match will be under the LGL rule. Metaknights are allowed to grab the ledge a TOTAL of 40 times PER MATCH. The numbers can be viewed AFTER a match on the results screen. If you exceed the limit even by a single ledge grab you will lose your entire SET or match( the TO will decide). However, this rule can be ignored if BOTH players agree.

MetaKnight Stage Rule: If Player A (Meta Knight) wins first game and gets CP'd to Halberd (a CP stage), then he can stay Meta Knight. But if he loses, he can only stay Meta Knight if he CPs a starter/neutral stage. If he CP's a CP stage, then after opponent changes character (or stays) Player A has to switch off of Meta Knight.

I'm just saying...

 

[Asdioh]

Running out the clock in and of itself is fine. Doing so without being able to be hit is the issue here.

Just wondering if anyone has ever considered how mind-numbingly long tournaments would run if EVERYONE had this mindset. 8 minute timer, best of 3 in pools/brackets = potential of 24 minutes per set. Multiply that by having usually 5-6 opponent or more IN POOLS, then consider brackets, and we have a game that is literally impossible to finish in one entire day, or weekend.

Just saying~

The whole reason we're even discussing this is because the community would rather to appeal to the growing number of Meta Knight players and limit the character rather than get rid of him.

The growing number is largely due to people being unable to find a character to beat Metaknight...outside of Metaknight.

Brawl WOULD be more boring without MK... But maybe that's the illusion we've created due to playing in a game with lots of MKs everywhere.

Brawl would be more fun without MK. :[

edit:

MetaKnight Ledge Grab Limit Rule and Metaknight stage rule

ALL METAKNIGHTs that enter a match will be under the LGL rule. Metaknights are allowed to grab the ledge a TOTAL of 40 times PER MATCH. The numbers can be viewed AFTER a match on the results screen. If you exceed the limit even by a single ledge grab you will lose your entire SET or match( the TO will decide). However, this rule can be ignored if BOTH players agree.

MetaKnight Stage Rule: If Player A (Meta Knight) wins first game and gets CP'd to Halberd (a CP stage), then he can stay Meta Knight. But if he loses, he can only stay Meta Knight if he CPs a starter/neutral stage. If he CP's a CP stage, then after opponent changes character (or stays) Player A has to switch off of Meta Knight.

holy **** rofl

this character is by no means influencing much in this game at all

 

[MarKO X]

lol forgot about this one:

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling. Plainking is a perfect example. If i see it, you WILL lose your ENTIRE SET. No warnings! Play, dont gay.

gotta love brawl.
i think i've seen all that i needed to see now.

 

[Kewkky]

lol forgot about this one:



gotta love brawl.
i think i've seen all that i needed to see now.

Well, that's what comes with trying to make a non-fighting game with ****ed-up physics into a competitive fighting game... Lots of unhappy players.

 

[cutter]

This is ****ing ********. Now there's four different rules in place specifically regarding Meta Knight:

- IDC
- Planking
- Scrooging
- MK can only CP neutrals

That should be an immediate red flag right there.

 

[MarKO X]

lol.
i'm still tryin to figure out how Brawl is not a fighting game... although I once heard someone say that Brawl is a Real Time Strategy game... considering the items, the characters, and the terrain, I can accept that.

 

[St. Viers]

It's a party game, designed to be played with items, on all sorts of random stages, and very little (if any) thought put into balancing it for people serious about competition.

EDIT: melee was too, but it turned out that they took melee as an example of what not to do (took out l-cancelling, wave dashing, made it slower, harder to combo, easier to recover, and included more stages with gimmicks.) So in that way, they tried making brawl even more a party game than melee was.

 

[etecoon]

More people should man up and pick up Snake/Falco/Diddy imo before they complain about MK. He's clearly the best in the game, but not unbeatable.

this. as a snake player and also having dabbled in falco a bit, I never really had a problem with meta knight. it's a disadvantageous matchup that I lose, but if I'm playing a good character I don't have a problem with him being in the game. a lot of pro banners seem to either main bad characters or are wifi only people that don't even go to real life tournaments(the two most adamant pro ban people I know are like this LOL)

 

[fkacyan]

Just wondering if anyone has ever considered how mind-numbingly long tournaments would run if EVERYONE had this mindset. 8 minute timer, best of 3 in pools/brackets = potential of 24 minutes per set. Multiply that by having usually 5-6 opponent or more IN POOLS, then consider brackets, and we have a game that is literally impossible to finish in one entire day, or weekend.

Just saying~

If finishing is the issue, lower the timer, or change the rules such that the match ending to the timer is a bad outcome for both players. Otherwise, this is a moot point.

 

[BSP]

This is ****ing ********. Now there's four different rules in place specifically regarding Meta Knight:

- IDC
- Planking
- Scrooging
- MK can only CP neutrals

That should be an immediate red flag right there.

I'm not sure if the last is a legit rule, but this really should be a flag. That's 3 rules that wouldn't be in place if MK was gone.

To what extent are we prepared to go to to keep him in the game?

 

[Asdioh]

To what extent are we prepared to go to to keep him in the game?

Compared to "to what extent will you pro-banners go to prove that he is as broken as you say" from a year ago or whenever.

-.-

Kinda irrelevant, but I found out by playing m2k yesterday that Mushroomy Kingdom is a godlike MK stage. o_O

 

[Cold Fusion]

All these rules that are enforced only to limit MK really suggests that he's gotta go.

 

[OfTheEarth]

it doesn't matter what we say
the SBR isn't going to ban MK

This isn't a democracy.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm not sure if the last is a legit rule, but this really should be a flag. That's 3 rules that wouldn't be in place if MK was gone.

To what extent are we prepared to go to to keep him in the game?

Xyro actually used the last rule "MK can only CP neutrals" at his tourney this weekend.

Amazing, isn't it?
Personally, I would have a tournament where none of those restrictions exist and encourage people to go planking with MK, but the problem with that is that no one would go... and of course they wouldn't... because... well, you know.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

rofl.
i looked at HOBO 23's rules.
those rules **** MK's full potential.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264493


I'm just saying...

...

Redhalberd, you CAN'T be serious. You say you switch to anti-ban because MK goes even. IN A TOURNAMENT WITH 3 RULES AGAINST MK! That's one of the most ******** things I have heard in this conversation. That MK can only CP neutrals is a HUGE character-specific nerf; what's MK famous for? Going to RC and ****** EVERYONE. Seriously man, THINK! Would MK go even if there weren't dozens of rules in place?

Are dozens of rules enough to limit him so that he isn't bannable?

USE MY STAGE RULE!

I'm not sure if the last is a legit rule, but this really should be a flag. That's 3 rules that wouldn't be in place if MK was gone.

To what extent are we prepared to go to to keep him in the game?

Indeed. It seems we could be ready to have a stock handicap or any manner of stupid rule in place to keep MK unbanned.

 

[Turbo Ether]

What's wrong with rules that limit MK?

 

[cutter]

If even more rules have to be implemented against MK like "Non-MK characters can take MK to banned stages", I'm finished with Brawl.

Spoiler

vBrawl that is.

@ Turbo Ether: The problem becomes when you have to implement so many restrictions against MK that it eventually just begs the question of "Why not just ban him?".

 

[salaboB]

If finishing is the issue, lower the timer, or change the rules such that the match ending to the timer is a bad outcome for both players. Otherwise, this is a moot point.

If the timer ending is bad for both, a noticably worse player could decide they had no chance of winning and take the better player down with them by stalling out the clock.

You don't want to allow the losing player the capability to do that in a game where camping is as hard to break as it is in Brawl.

 

[MarKO X]

What's wrong with rules that limit MK?

What's wrong with rules that boost Falcon?

If the timer ending is bad for both, a noticably worse player could decide they had no chance of winning and take the better player down with them by stalling out the clock.

You don't want to allow the losing player the capability to do that in a game where camping is as hard to break as it is in Brawl.

lol destiny bonding.

 

[OfTheEarth]

I predict this whole MK getting banned sit. is going to destroy brawl. i'm not the first to think this i bet.
just all of this is ridiculous

and I have a question
seriousness:
Does anyone know when/or if the SBR is going to tell us about what they're going to do?