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So you know I gotta hit you with the classic question:
1. there is 26 frames? something in the 20s where MK can't do anything after he grabs the edge. nothing.
I keep forgetting MK's down B has no start up or ending lag. thanks for reminding me about that.
what is this accomplishing then? all you're doing is stalling out the number of LGs he has and not hitting him/punishing his planking at all. this is just a slight annoyance if anything.
start up would be covered by LG invincibility. end lag, while i'm not certain i very much doubt is more than anything most characters can do on the ledge. the best you could hope for is MK landing close enough to the ledge from down b for you to fall off of the ledge and aerial him. and that's just luck...
yep in no human error land. chances are he isn't going to be in position to instantly snap to the ledge once you let go, and with invulnerability you can take advantage of what ever position he is in. In the worst possible situation you find yourself back at neutral or with another chance to try and take advantage of your new found invulnerability.
One things for sure. I don't get beat by planking MKs.
I stopped reading right there.
I'm not trying to be an a**hole. I just believe what I'm saying. And I hate it when people win an argument with me by not arguing or discrediting my knowledge skill or whatever.
I'm not perfect but for stuff like this you don't have to be. I have answers to a lot of questions, lol, but not everything. When I do play I do well in tourney. there are few people who play me who wouldn't use the word "good" to describe me and that includes the FL PRs some of the strongest players in the countery if I don't mind saying so myself.
Gimping isn't as easy as people make it out to be even tethers. most have very good aerials or projectiles to force you off stage or in cases like sheik and ZSS etc. alternate recovery specials.
I'll try and make a video about it in the near future...
Fair .
Just use my rule, or a watered-down version of it! On the first round and every counterpick, a non-MK can choose ANY stage against an MK. On MK's counterpick, it's reduced to neutrals minus Smashville.
Just read the thread... It's not really possible. Also, speaking of "no human error land", imagine you **** up your tether snap as ZSS/Ivy/Oli. What then? You ****ing die. The risk for you is the loss of the stock, the risk for MK is that he has to abandon the ledge and get away.
Because there's a ledge grab limit?
Why are we leaving the MK with the option of doing broken techniques and not giving the hopeless opponent any way of taking care of it? What makes it OK for MK to have 0-6 frames of vulnerability on the ledge (depending on uair planking or downB pnaking), and every opponent being unable to do anything about it? Why is it wrong to take away scrooging, for everything other than recovery purposes? I'm giving a suggestion to a situation we all dislike because of how hopeless we are in it, and how all of our options are compromised when the opponent decides on doing so.
Banning planking isn't a surgical change because we're not imposing a limit on some inherent trait a character possesses. We're giving the entire game one extra option: the ability to give the opponent space for him to recover, and the opponent successfully recovering onto the stage. The opponent shouldn't be allowed to grab the ledge after this until someone's hit once again (possibly just the planker), which should counter all of that "avoiding any and all contact" as well as the "position that requires the opponent to take a great deal of damage and/or lose a stock in the process to get you out of there" thing.
My suggestion doesn't ban planking, it gives the victim one extra option to deal with planking... We can all agree that we can't ban planking due to how it can be confused with an opponent recovering, so the player can give the opponent the space he would require to recover, and the opponent will be forced to recover ON-STAGE (meaning no scrooging to bypass this rule by following the opponent to the other side of the stage). If you give them the space required, it's very safe for the opponent to leave the ledge, touch the ground and continue the match. When Pit/G&W/whatever planks, they're doing the same thing MK does but to a lesser extent... Taking a broken tactic and manipulating it to suit their needs.
...... Then if you say that removing planking+scrooging would remove everything that's broken from MK, what's the problem?
Man, you're nitpicking my choice of words. What good does it do for your arguments? Fine... Let's change it from "honored" to "grateful". Happy now? -_-
The ledge is a defensive position, and ledge-pressuring will still exist. When you're fighting an opponent and they're on the ledge, and you know that jumping off to get them out will kill you, what other options do you have? Well, you can try all of those other options, and if none of them work and your only option is to die trying (or take lots of damage), then now you have another option: to give them the space required to recover safely.
He has the most versatile recovery in the game, arguably the best in the game. He has the best offensive:defensive ratio, making him a very unbalanced, overpowered character. His attacks have lots of reach, and good damage output, as well as comboability. A spammable semi-spike (dair) and multiple jumps to force gimps, as well as a powerful set-knockback semi-spike (aerial upB) which puts him in gliding animation, perfect for recovering afterwards. He has the best and safest frametrapping move in the game (tornado). One of the best OoS options (grounded upB) where he has invincibility on start-up and can kill off the top AS SOON AS his shield is touched, assuring 100% connection between the attack and the opponent.
We are leaving MK with the option of broken techniques because these techniques are still a part of the game.
or do they? (see above)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262943&highlight=surgical
If only one character is using the tactic in a broken manner, how is it broken again?
If I removed the air fireball from ST Akuma and removed the option to lock your opponent in the frame perfect red fireball lock from ST Akuma, he's perfectly beatable. But he's banned though.
Nope. Of course you'd be grateful for the opponent to leave you room, I'd be too. Allows me a moment to not do anything... oh wait, I have to come up off the ledge? Just like it's a decision for the opponent to move back, I don't see why it shouldn't be a decision for me to get back on the stage, especially when the ledge is just as much a part of the game as the stage.
Is that fair to the opponent who's doing the ledge game better than the opponent can deal with it?
Character doesn't want to come off the ledge because the opponent can't deal with it. Opponent could be failing against ROB's lasers and (to a lesser extent) gyros, Mario's reupBing, Ike's reupBing... anything simple. If an opponent decides, "Dam, I can't deal with this," he just move back, and now the opponent is obligated to get back on the stage, as opposed to forcing the opponent to figure out how to deal with it.
uair ***** airdodges.
Just like how Peach Bomber and Rising Pound stalling were part of the game and programmed to do those exact effects? Why did those get banned?
As soon as the MK (or character) is able to make it to the ledge, there really is no reason for him to wait on the ledge any longer. Once the opponent gives the space and you realize that he's half a stage away at least, you're obligated to leave the ledge. You can bend it and regrab like 2 more times or something (doesn't matter the number), but does it affect the game as much as no limitations to planking?
MK (or the character) is still achieving a position where the opponent can reach him, and not deliberately (and excessively) avoiding any and all contact between both players. Dodging attacks means that he's in danger of being hit, and that's exactly what I want happening... Plankers+scroogers being vulnerable.
Some surgical changes are better than global changes. Chaingrabs were limited until 300%because they could be executed indefinitely, thus stalling the game. Is it a global change or a surgical change? A global change would've been to ban all the characters capable of chaingrabs, but which is a smarter approach to the situation? I believe there's a best choice for everything, and although global changes are great, it isn't always the best choice... More like a "last resort" unless it as a first resort IS the best answer (which may not be the case here).
I dunno, ask IDC.
See, I'd be against removing the air fireball... Is it the Akuma player's fault if he mashes in the air and accidentally activates an air fireball? He was conscious of the rule and was never gonna do it, but whoops! An accident and he did it! What happens now?
Why aren't walkoffs allowed, even though they're part of the game? Me as a DDD player can chaingrab to the other side and then DECIDE to let you go without killing you... But come on, do you honestly expect me to do so when money's on the line? I'll chaingrab you all 3 times off the edges if I have to in order to make dat ther money. What makes you think MKs won't plank if they grab the ledge with an advantage? Honor? Sad thing is, that's exactly why MKs don't plank as much as they should: Honor.
If MK is planking too good for me to deal with it (as DMG's thread shows), is it my fault that I can't beat a broken strategy? If Pit is constantly scrooging and faking scrooging in order for me to run to the other edge from time to time, is it my fault that I can't catch up to him or beat the strategy?
Even though I abhor hearing examples of horrid players who can't punish easy-to-punish things (like Ike's ledge game or Mario's upB regrabs), I have to admit that they're realistic situations... Well, let's see if I can think of some other suggestion that doesn't affect gameplay, besides planking+scrooging then.
Pit can scrooge, so he can be pretty broke if done right... Scrooging is a pretty broken tactic, after all. G&W has his uair planking which is slightly worse than MKs due to it not letting the opponents grab the ledge, and if they do G&W can upB them out of the ledges/upB onto the stage. Marth's planking can be handled a LOT easier than the other examples, but people usually just give Marth the space to recover since a tippered ledgedropped uair hurts more than an MK ledgedropped uair.
Nah, you got the gist of it right.
So, what if it's a non-MK with the % lead who gets knocked off the edge and Falco sets up camp?
This argument is soooooo bad.
(Power)shield fromt he other side of the stage, force that Falco to approach.
Yes... Because shielding is very hard to do, as is jumping over lasers or ducking under them or absorbing them or reflecting them. :|
Actually, only plankers/scroogers force people to stop and do nothing half the time. Every other character can be punished while they're on the ledges. If you give your opponent space, then you just wasted a perfectly good opportunity to edgeguard and prevent them from touching ground, safe for every character while they're grabbing the ledge and their opponents are half a stage away.
Between you and me... Kirby uses grenades better than Snake.
I think scrooging is easier to deal with than planking. We could either mimic Japan's rule to scrooging, which limits going under stages to only once until you touch ground... It's a good rule, since it forces the opponent onto the stage, which is vulnerable against campers... Depends on the community though, unless they want a different answer to it.
But you're missing the point: That was one specific example. Replace it with any character that's sitting and at an advantage from you being pinned against the edge of the stage. The instant you climb up, they can rush you and apply pressure -- and you were forced into that situation, rather than them having to come deal with your ledge mixups. I'm not saying this is a good idea in many situations, but giving one player an option to force another player to do anything predictable is restrictive to that other player -- and in this case will be artificially forced by a rule, not by game mechanics.(Power)shield fromt he other side of the stage, force that Falco to approach.
Yes... Because shielding is very hard to do, as is jumping over lasers or ducking under them or absorbing them or reflecting them. :|
That's still beside the point, if you have a reason to want to force the opponent to come to you on the ledge and they can force you off it, this anti-MK rule has just limited your options as a non-MK.
You're evading the point. If someone can set up a camp that's going to be as bad for someone to try to attack as it is to try to attack a planker (Read: You will get hit trying to break it) why should you be forced to approach them? If you can force someone to get off the edge and stop planking, you should be able to force someone to stop camping on-stage in a way that prevents any safe approach.Between you and me... Kirby uses grenades better than Snake.
Infinites are enforced by rules, the IDC Ban is enforced by rules, the Suicide Moves' results are enforced by rules... There's not much wrong with morphing our game around rules. We're forcing a brawler into a fighter by enforcing rules outside of the game.
I can see this situation being worked around with a twist of my suggestion here and there... But I already said I'd think fo soemthing else, so you can just ignore my suggestion. Just keep the feedback rolling so I can keep morphing a decent rule that would be acceptable (unless of course, your goal is to get rid of MK as a whole, which I have no problem with... I just want to exhaust all of my options bfore dealing with absolutes. But say that you want him banned before i continue, I don't wanna go typing things when no one wants to listen due to their resolves being set in stone!).
The camper is at a vulnerable position, the opponent can get to him and regain the advantage, it's all about getting through his (vulnerable) defenses. Getting past planking (according to DMG's thread) is impossible, and when you manage to at least grab the ledge, you're now at a very unfavorable position. The difference between both? Camping has vulnerabilities while planking+scrooging don't.
thats the funny part about it what work?
No, what i'm doing is starting from the ground up to see if i can get to some sort of ruling that's aggreeable by both parties. Start from any ground, accept feedback, use it to form a new idea, accept feedback once again, form a newer idea... Unless someone beats me to the punch and suggests something agreeable before me.
You have to learn spacing.