Official Metaknight Discussion

[salaboB]

I predict this whole MK getting banned sit. is going to destroy brawl. i'm not the first to think this i bet.
just all of this is ridiculous

If it didn't also seem like not banning (Or at least, dealing with somehow) MK was also going to destroy competitive Brawl, I'm sure people would be willing to just drop it.

 

[Turbo Ether]

What's wrong with rules that boost Falcon?

Implement rules to fix a character that is too good, in order to make the game playable.

VS

The game being perfectly playable with the existence of a really bad character, making rules that fix this character, unjustified.

 

[HeroMystic]

What's wrong with rules that boost Falcon?

While I'm fine with logical arguments and all, I'm a realist. Seriously, the community isn't that stupid.

Limiting Metaknight to keep him in the game is silly, but can't really go against it if it, potentially, balances out the broken aspects of him.

 

[CR4SH]

Ledge grab rules are a dumb way to try and preserve a character.

 

[Asdioh]

People seem to be forgetting that planking was NOT the reason the MK banning debate began. They seem to think that if they "limit" his planking via worthless rules he will magically become a wonderful, balanced character.

 

[etecoon]

Ledge grab rules are a dumb way to try and preserve a character.

MK isn't the only reason these rules are necessary.

and yeah, basing a MU opinion off of a tournament that has joke rules is a little silly. diddy vs MK is like even/slight advantage MK on neutrals IMO, but there's only one TO that thought "MK can only CP neutrals!" was a good idea.

 

[Overswarm]

MK isn't the only reason these rules are necessary.

Yes, he is.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Both of you should back up your opinions.

Also, remember, as the fox main said, Planking data is the "final nail in the coffin". Not the first cry for a lynch.

 

[OfTheEarth]

Both of you should back up your opinions.

Also, remember, as the fox main said, Planking data is the "final nail in the coffin". Not the first cry for a lynch.

here, here

 

[ElDominio]

Well, the MK/P4 situation has successfully killed the Smash community in PR..... I hope it doesn't go down like this in other places....

 

[OfTheEarth]

Well, the MK/P4 situation has successfully killed the Smash community in PR..... I hope it doesn't go down like this in other places....

Puerto Rico?

 

[Espy Rose]

MK isn't the only reason these rules are necessary.

and yeah, basing a MU opinion off of a tournament that has joke rules is a little silly. diddy vs MK is like even/slight advantage MK on neutrals IMO, but there's only one TO that thought "MK can only CP neutrals!" was a good idea.

What the hell are you talking about? Of course Meta Knight is the only reason those rules were even conjured up and enforced! Not even G&W's planking has been severe enough to really raise issues.

Mostly because G&W doesn't have 5 god**** midair jumps, but the point is still there.

Oh, and I DO agree with the second half of your post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol @ people thinking they can beat a correctly planking G&W.

 

[Overswarm]

lol @ people thinking they can beat a correctly planking G&W.

Yeah, Marth and MK can both up+b OoS on his nair before he goes under the stage. That means his nair lasts longer than his invincibility. This does not bode well for G&W.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lol @ people thinking they can beat a correctly planking G&W.

Wait on the frame data before acting like an idiot. As usual.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Well, the MK/P4 situation has successfully killed the Smash community in PR..... I hope it doesn't go down like this in other places....

Not yet. I refuse to let it die .

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

pound 4 killed the smash community in PR? was it the mk dominance or the low turnout for brawl?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

How the hell can you guys seriously say 'Brawl would be more boring without MK' with a straight face.

Seriously.

 

[TLMSheikant]

10chars. :O.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Almost all the PR players lost to planking metaknights. And now they dont want to know anything about brawl. Ling ling was the only brawl player that made it into brackets, losing to DEHF in close matches although it was 2-0. Excel zero the best brawl player here supposedly got a lot of metas in his pool and he uses peach so u know what happened lolz. Now, the brawl players of PR except a few dont want to know anything about brawl until something is done about meta . There are like...10 players left . Ling ling recently picked up metaknight himself and is using him more than his DDD to have something to combat mks in mlg. Oh, and of course the whole zucco/ksizzle 105 ledge grabs in teams was also a contributing factor.

And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is why anyone saying "Banning MK would kill the smash tournament scene" and using it as a serious argument deserves to be slapped. With a fish.

EDIT: granted, it does work the other way around; I can say "You can't say MK is killing the smash scene when half the smash scene is MKs that would leave if he got banned". So neither is a valid argument!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Of course it isn't, none of us can see the future.

 

[fkacyan]

How the hell can you guys seriously say 'Brawl would be more boring without MK' with a straight face.

Seriously.

I have watched matches containing 0 MKs that were equally if not more boring to watch.

See: teh_spammerer's, or somebody as patient as him, Falco vs D3 who can do little to nothing against laser camping except slowly. Walk. Forwards. Shielding. And can't do much about Phantasm.

For 8 minutes.

Now imagine this being your regular practice partner and him doing it to you in friendlies.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I have watched matches containing 0 MKs that were equally if not more boring to watch.

See: teh_spammerer's, or somebody as patient as him, Falco vs D3 who can do little to nothing against laser camping except slowly. Walk. Forwards. Shielding. And can't do much about Phantasm.

For 8 minutes.

Now imagine this being your regular practice partner and him doing it to you in friendlies.

Not only this, but the MK ditto is probably one of the faster paced and more entertaining dittos in the game.

Snake ditto? Eww.
Diddy ditto? Lol.
Falco ditto? Yuck.
IC ditto? GTFO.

 

[ElDominio]

Our local boards were shut down by the main admin (Kasht), and there is great commontion between most of the people bashing on Brawl and most of the Brawl players that johned over P4 and went to Melee.

Every single one of them blamed MK, some with reason and some without. I know they were mostly johning over it, but they still cited the fact that all of them got pwned by MKs which usually did something in specific (can't quite remember but I guess it's planking) and well yeah.... everything went haywire...

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translat.../www.smashpr.com/&lp=es_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

EDIT:
TL:DR
Thanks to MK's dominance @ P4, and most people's inability to deal with him.... The Brawl community in PR has effectively died... Only me, Sheikant, TWiNK and a few others are left..... Since we're commited to it...

 

[hotgarbage]

Well, the MK/P4 situation has successfully killed the Smash community in PR..... I hope it doesn't go down like this in other places....

I'm very surprised this hasn't been brought up more myself. An entire region quitting because of MK isn't something to be taken lightly. And before you say "lol Puerto Rico" consider that out of ~500 members of their smash community 20 attended Pound 4. That's 10.5% of Pound 4's pot.

That 10% won't be there for apex.


Mehhhhh. MK isn't broken yeah, but his presence sure does make the the metagame bleak. As more people come to realize this truth (that the game is essentially: MK, Snake, Diddy? Falco?) more people will leave.

To quote smash vet and best G&W in NA (world?), UTD Zac:

pound 4 killed the smash community in PR? was it the mk dominance or the low turnout for brawl?

See:

Seriously, 70% of the PR players that went to Pound 4 for Brawl decided not to play it anymore because it wasn't worth it. Ling Ling and Excel Zero both decided not to play brawl because no matter how badly the practiced the match up, Tornado + Shuttle Loop + DSmash = Too much work for no reward.

The hype every one had for Apex was gone because, frankly, the didn't feel like paying $600.00 + ??? to get beat by MK players. Zero and Ling got planked in teams as well and when the told a judge (not sure who) that they (the other team) had 105 ledge grabs, he told them that it didn't apply for teams.

Ling: "That was a stupid call because, if planking was allowed or there wasn't a limit for ledge grabs, any one could just pick two MK's and plank until the time ran out."

He's not gonna play Brawl anymore (ling); he's going to play full melee and if he does play brawl again, he said he was going to main DiddyK.

EDIT:
@ ElDominio: uh, holy ****.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm very surprised this hasn't been brought up more myself. An entire region quitting because of MK isn't something to be taken lightly. And before you say "lol Puerto Rico" consider that out of ~500 members of their smash community 20 attended Pound 4. That's 10.5% of Pound 4's pot.

That 10% won't be there for apex.


Mehhhhh. MK isn't broken yeah, but his presence sure does make the the metagame bleak. As more people come to realize this truth (that the game is essentially: MK, Snake, Diddy? Falco?) more people will leave.

To quote smash vet and best G&W in NA (world?), UTD Zac:




...Some people have said that MK's presence will eventually lead to nothing less than the death of the game. Whether or not that will actually happen is impossible to tell really..... but I think it's obvious that if not killed off our community will at the very least be gimped, perhaps severely.


See:



EDIT: @ ElDominio: uh, holy ****.

So um... why does anti-ban ever even consider using any kind of argument relating to MK killing Brawl if removed?

It's like a ****ing cancer-we can either watch it dwindle into just cancer, or we can risk the operation that could kill the patient. He's going to die sooner or later with or without the operation (old age if it is operated/recedes). If he doesn't have the operation, the cancer will kill him sooner or later. If he has the operation, he has a chance of just outright dying, but if it succeeds, he can live a lot longer and recover.

 

[ElDominio]

And, as I see it, this happened now in PR since we are a much smaller region, but I don't see it being limited to this place only.... I pray that something is done....

 

[fkacyan]

So um... why does anti-ban ever even consider using any kind of argument relating to MK killing Brawl if removed?

It's like a ****ing cancer-we can either watch it dwindle into just cancer, or we can risk the operation that could kill the patient. He's going to die sooner or later with or without the operation (old age if it is operated/recedes). If he doesn't have the operation, the cancer will kill him sooner or later. If he has the operation, he has a chance of just outright dying, but if it succeeds, he can live a lot longer and recover.

I can't speak for anti-ban, but in my personal opinion I'd rather not have whiny scrubs in the community. People quitting because of a beatable character is like dropping out of school because you can't pass Freshman English.

Now, if he isn't beatable, the above is obviously moot, but without planking he should be, as evidenced by the fact that MK does not take the entirety of the top 8.

 

[etecoon]

Yes, he is.

I thought according to you an LGL wasn't necessary even WITH MK?

What the hell are you talking about? Of course Meta Knight is the only reason those rules were even conjured up and enforced! Not even G&W's planking has been severe enough to really raise issues.

MK's planking hasn't even been a severe issue with the LGL in place, and he can preserve grabs much better than anyone.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't speak for anti-ban, but in my personal opinion I'd rather not have whiny scrubs in the community. People quitting because of a beatable character is like dropping out of school because you can't pass Freshman English.

Now, if he isn't beatable, the above is obviously moot, but without planking he should be, as evidenced by the fact that MK does not take the entirety of the top 8.

Wanna know why this is stupid? Wanna know why the whole concept of knocking "whiny scrubs" off the game is a ****ing stupid idea?

Because you're calling well over 50% of the entire brawl community scrubs. Imagine that. You're willing to say "**** off" to the MAJORITY. Additionally, in this specific case, you're calling an ENTIRE REGION "whiny scrubs". That's like if AN suddenly said, "All right, we're not supporting brawl any more until something gets done about MK" and you say "okay, fine, see ya later scrubs". Or Texas. Or SoCal/NorCal. In fact, it's funny you say "scrubs" because Sirlin himself, who coined the phrase, is pro-ban. MK has everything a bannable character ever needs. All the proof in the world that he is bannable and belongs banned (instead of, you know, lousy rules that barely keep him in place being kept to keep him in the game, the TRULY scrubby option). And you're saying that everyone in Puerto Rico is a scrub?

Also, again, even if it comes down to "purging scrubs", these scrubs are still 10% of national pools. Or, rather, were. Not the kind of money loss you want as a top player. Around 10% of the pool... yeah, no.

I'm marking this post, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9762749&postcount=8508, as the single most retardedly biased and stupid statement I have EVER seen. I mean, GOD DAMMIT! It makes me want to tear my hair out!

Also, just out of curiousity, what procent of players at pound 4 came from each region? Maybe crunching those numbers will give you a sense of perspective. I really doubt any particular region is more than 20%.

 

[etecoon]

Because you're calling well over 50% of the entire brawl community scrubs.

completely unverified. I wouldn't consider a lot of people who post here to really be part of the competitive brawl community, and I've seen many people that don't go to in person tournaments voting/being very outspoken on this issue.

I agree that it's wrong to call all of pro ban scrubs though, there are talented and good players that are pro ban. but this data is bad.

 

[OfTheEarth]

Wanna know why this is stupid? Wanna know why the whole concept of knocking "whiny scrubs" off the game is a ****ing stupid idea?

Because you're calling well over 50% of the entire brawl community scrubs. Imagine that. You're willing to say "**** off" to the MAJORITY. Additionally, in this specific case, you're calling an ENTIRE REGION "whiny scrubs". That's like if AN suddenly said, "All right, we're not supporting brawl any more until something gets done about MK" and you say "okay, fine, see ya later scrubs". Or Texas. Or SoCal/NorCal. In fact, it's funny you say "scrubs" because Sirlin himself, who coined the phrase, is pro-ban. MK has everything a bannable character ever needs. All the proof in the world that he is bannable and belongs banned (instead of, you know, lousy rules that barely keep him in place being kept to keep him in the game, the TRULY scrubby option). And you're saying that everyone in Puerto Rico is a scrub?

Also, again, even if it comes down to "purging scrubs", these scrubs are still 10% of national pools. Or, rather, were. Not the kind of money loss you want as a top player. Around 10% of the pool... yeah, no.

I'm marking this post, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9762749&postcount=8508, as the single most retardedly biased and stupid statement I have EVER seen. I mean, GOD DAMMIT! It makes me want to tear my hair out!

Also, just out of curiousity, what procent of players at pound 4 came from each region? Maybe crunching those numbers will give you a sense of perspective. I really doubt any particular region is more than 20%.

I like the way you operate, mr. budget cadet player. I will follow you to the end of the world i would!

 

[fkacyan]

Wanna know why this is stupid? Wanna know why the whole concept of knocking "whiny scrubs" off the game is a ****ing stupid idea?

Because you're calling well over 50% of the entire brawl community scrubs. Imagine that. You're willing to say "**** off" to the MAJORITY. Additionally, in this specific case, you're calling an ENTIRE REGION "whiny scrubs". That's like if AN suddenly said, "All right, we're not supporting brawl any more until something gets done about MK" and you say "okay, fine, see ya later scrubs". Or Texas. Or SoCal/NorCal. In fact, it's funny you say "scrubs" because Sirlin himself, who coined the phrase, is pro-ban. MK has everything a bannable character ever needs. All the proof in the world that he is bannable and belongs banned (instead of, you know, lousy rules that barely keep him in place being kept to keep him in the game, the TRULY scrubby option). And you're saying that everyone in Puerto Rico is a scrub?

Also, again, even if it comes down to "purging scrubs", these scrubs are still 10% of national pools. Or, rather, were. Not the kind of money loss you want as a top player. Around 10% of the pool... yeah, no.

I'm marking this post, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9762749&postcount=8508, as the single most retardedly biased and stupid statement I have EVER seen. I mean, GOD DAMMIT! It makes me want to tear my hair out!

Also, just out of curiousity, what procent of players at pound 4 came from each region? Maybe crunching those numbers will give you a sense of perspective. I really doubt any particular region is more than 20%.

A lot of your post assumes that he is bannable. You might want to re-read mine.

I'll simplify it for you:

If MK is not banworthy, quitting over him makes you a scrub.
If MK is banworthy, he should be banned and people quitting over him is legitimate.

So, if MK isn't banworthy and an entire region quit over him, yes, they are all scrubs. I don't particularly care how offensive that is.

Also, I don't care about Sirlin's opinion. Why would you even bring that up?

 

[ElDominio]

completely unverified. I wouldn't consider a lot of people who post here to really be part of the competitive brawl community, and I've seen many people that don't go to in person tournaments voting/being very outspoken on this issue.

I agree that it's wrong to call all of pro ban scrubs though, there are talented and good players that are pro ban. but this data is bad.

Sadly, they ARE part of the community, since these forums is the biggest medium the metagame is developed and discussed. I highly doubt being a lurker here excludes you from being part of the community,

In any case, we have a member of the TL backroom here, and a few other people that are influental.

I know that I suck, but I still think of myself as part of the general Brawl community, since everyone takes part in anything by the simple act of just being here.

A lot of your post assumes that he is bannable. You might want to re-read mine.

I'll simplify it for you:

If MK is not banworthy, quitting over him makes you a scrub.
If MK is banworthy, he should be banned and people quitting over him is legitimate.

So, if MK isn't banworthy and an entire region quit over him, yes, they are all scrubs. I don't particularly care how offensive that is.

Also, I don't care about Sirlin's opinion. Why would you even bring that up?

Sadly, they are PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY, scrubs or not. They helped make the pot. They discussed metagame and maybe improved someone's ideas on something.

We lost that. Completley. Brawl tournaments now have an expected attendace of about 9 people here.

 

[MarKO X]

lol @ calling people whiny scrubs...

seriously, if people actually played MK to win and didn't use rules to keep MK players from fully playing to win (LGL and now apparently MKs can only CP neutrals), MK'd be banned by now.

 

[etecoon]

we're talking about two different things though. yeah everyone here plays brawl, but if you don't go to tournaments you aren't really involved with competitive brawl, why are people who aren't even affected by MK being banned or not seemingly some of the most outspoken people about it?

 

[fkacyan]

Sadly, they are PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY, scrubs or not. They helped make the pot. They discussed metagame and maybe improved someone's ideas on something.

We lost that. Completley. Brawl tournaments now have an expected attendace of about 9 people here.

From a money point of view, yes, it is awful that we have lost those players. From a philosophical point of view, it can be argued that a community without those players have an influence on others is better.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

A lot of your post assumes that he is bannable. You might want to re-read mine.

I'll simplify it for you:

If MK is not banworthy, quitting over him makes you a scrub.
If MK is banworthy, he should be banned and people quitting over him is legitimate.

So, if MK isn't banworthy and an entire region quit over him, yes, they are all scrubs. I don't particularly care how offensive that is.

Also, I don't care about Sirlin's opinion. Why would you even bring that up?

All right. A lot of your post assumes that we haven't proven that he is bannable. We have. Up until recently, we had nothing but subjective evidence. Now we have proof that MK has a technique that breaks the game in half. 2 punishable frames, protected by massive, fast, disjointed lazer hitboxes before during and after... There is NOTHING that can beat it. The absolute best scenario is to be able to stop him from doing it for a few seconds, during which he moves elsewhere and does it again. It is impossible to make an objective, good rule for it that isn't crazy stupid. Metaknight is bannable. We've proven it.

Let me put it to you this way. Let's say MK is not bannable. We've shown that he's beatable, that he has a counter (this counter being an obscure low tier), etc. Except, 80% of the entire smash community (and 60% of the high-level professional community) wants him banned regardless. Are they ALL scrubs? Would you still not ban MK if a super majority supported the ban and would leave if he isn't?

EDIT:

From a money point of view, yes, it is awful that we have lost those players. From a philosophical point of view, it can be argued that a community without those players have an influence on others is better.

Well, I guess not. I'll let other people decide what THIS means.

As far as referencing Sirlin, I felt it appropriate because if you're calling a group that the person who invented the term "scrub" belongs to scrubs, something is wrong.

lol @ calling people whiny scrubs...

seriously, if people actually played MK to win and didn't use rules to keep MK players from fully playing to win (LGL and now apparently MKs can only CP neutrals), MK'd be banned by now.

THIS. DEAR GOD THIS.

 

[ElDominio]

From a money point of view, yes, it is awful that we have lost those players. From a philosophical point of view, it can be argued that a community without those players have an influence on others is better.

If we dwelve into philosophy, I might quote Marx's idea on the dialectic. Every idea, ever, has SOME good in it, and now those ideas have been shot down since they don't even want to think about Brawl....

we're talking about two different things though. yeah everyone here plays brawl, but if you don't go to tournaments you aren't really involved with competitive brawl, why are people who aren't even affected by MK being banned or not seemingly some of the most outspoken people about it?

But, we know how it feels. Maybe we care about this game.
I play mostly casually, although I assist to some locals for fun. I'd just love the game to be generally fair-er and broader, since I always see here that all the tourneys in US are won by MKs. I can see how it kills the game, and now the people I used to play with barely want to play anymore...

 

[hotgarbage]

I can't speak for anti-ban, but in my personal opinion I'd rather not have whiny scrubs in the community. People quitting because of a beatable character is like dropping out of school because you can't pass Freshman English.

You're cute

....Otherwise anti-ban until my personal "negates over 75% of the cast" criteria is met. Or a rigid data-based criteria is established.

Wayyyy late here, but this has been on my mind as of recent, and I'd like to discuss this with you. (if you'd humor me; it's probably already been touched somewhere in this beast <____>)

At what point exactly do you consider a character to be "negated"?