Official Metaknight Discussion

[Kewkky]

nope, because you were hit off stage and showed no signs of planking

Exactly. You didn't plank because you were recovering. If you would've done anything else, you would've died in that scenario. Your SAFEST option to completing your recovery was the planking motion, and you didn't plank because you did it to recover. Planking is excessively doing that same defensive strategy with the hopes of maintaining your lead while running out the timer.

I wonder how judges would fucntion in smash.

They work in sports and magic cause theres a nice fat rulebook, but in smash not so much.

Meh, gives me something to think on.

A TO (tournament organizer) is a judge, pretty much. They decide what happens in their tourneys, their rules, how they run it, and when the rules are being broken.

 

[Nanaki]

OK, take the same scenario. Assume I have a 1 stock lead and am at high %. After I uair Marth and regrab the ledge, I elect to not hop onto the stage because I'm worried that I'm not entirely safe. I hop around on the ledge for awhile, hoping Marth will goof up and give me an easy opportunity on.

...nothing presents itself, so I glide to the other side. Marth follows on stage, and I don't feel totally safe, so I keep hopping around on the ledge, protecting myself with an uair when Marth looks like he's going to try to drop-off bair or dair me.

At exactly which point do I have to hop up onto the ledge because the judge says so? What if another judge thinks differently? I'm not trying to run the timer, I'm just playing EXTREMELY cautiously (and smartly). I'm also not doing the 'unbeatable' planking, just throwing out uairs or downB's when I don't feel totally safe.

...can you see where this is going?

 

[deepseadiva]

Just out of curiosity, I made a list of the legal stages if we were to attack planking and scrooging from a stage perspective. Everything in blue stops scrooging, and everything in green stops planking.

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Delfino
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Norfair

Keep in mind, this list is rough. For instance, Pictochat has the capability to stop planking, but it depends on random transformations that might not appear. Others like Delfino and Brinstar require waiting for the stage to change.

Huh. This is interesting.

 

[Kewkky]

OK, take the same scenario. Assume I have a 1 stock lead and am at high %. After I uair Marth and regrab the ledge, I elect to not hop onto the stage because I'm worried that I'm not entirely safe. I hop around on the ledge for awhile, hoping Marth will goof up and give me an easy opportunity on.

...nothing presents itself, so I glide to the other side. Marth follows on stage, and I don't feel totally safe, so I keep hopping around on the ledge, protecting myself with an uair when Marth looks like he's going to try to drop-off bair or dair me.

At exactly which point do I have to hop up onto the ledge because the judge says so? What if another judge thinks differently? I'm not trying to run the timer, I'm just playing EXTREMELY cautiously (and smartly). I'm also not doing the 'unbeatable' planking, just throwing out uairs or downB's when I don't feel totally safe.

...can you see where this is going?

My suggestion was that if the opponent is attempting a planking/scrooging-like scenario, then the edgeguarder would have the option to retreat a safe-enough distance (maybe half of the stage away), and the ledgegrabber would be forced onto the stage due to the rule. This way, his "recovery attempt which is being confused with planking" would be out of the way, and only if his purpose was to plank, would he go back to the ledge... You're also at a lead, so your opponent approaching is actually beneficial to you. It's not like MK can camp from far away either, what MK wants to do is keep the opponent in his maximum attack range and deal damage safely. What need does MK have in retreating to the ledge everytime the opponent approaches when he is at high %? He's literally stopping the fight and running the timer if he does that, it's painfully obvious when considering the no-planking suggestion I posted... Of course, I'll see if I can make a 'shorter, sweeter and with no judge needed' version of it, and keep editing it with feedback by other players...

... Unless you would rather not settle for compromises and outright take care of MK. I have no problem with that, but I'd rather exhaust my options before attempting to split the community even more.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ooh, pretty colors.

 

[laki]

My suggestion was that if the opponent is attempting a planking/scrooging-like scenario, then the edgeguarder would have the option to retreat a safe-enough distance (maybe half of the stage away), and the ledgegrabber would be forced onto the stage due to the rule. This way, his "recovery attempt which is being confused with planking" would be out of the way, and only if his purpose was to plank, would he go back to the ledge... You're also at a lead, so your opponent approaching is actually beneficial to you. It's not like MK can camp from far away either, what MK wants to do is keep the opponent in his maximum attack range and deal damage safely. What need does MK have in retreating to the ledge everytime the opponent approaches when he is at high %? He's literally stopping the fight and running the timer if he does that, it's painfully obvious when considering the no-planking suggestion I posted... Of course, I'll see if I can make a 'shorter, sweeter and with no judge needed' version of it, and keep editing it with feedback by other players...

... Unless you would rather not settle for compromises and outright take care of MK. I have no problem with that, but I'd rather exhaust my options before attempting to split the community even more.

Reading this, all I could think was brawl needs a shot clock lmao

 

[rPSIvysaur]

My suggestion was that if the opponent is attempting a planking/scrooging-like scenario, then the edgeguarder would have the option to retreat a safe-enough distance (maybe half of the stage away), and the ledgegrabber would be forced onto the stage due to the rule. This way, his "recovery attempt which is being confused with planking" would be out of the way, and only if his purpose was to plank, would he go back to the ledge... You're also at a lead, so your opponent approaching is actually beneficial to you. It's not like MK can camp from far away either, what MK wants to do is keep the opponent in his maximum attack range and deal damage safely. What need does MK have in retreating to the ledge everytime the opponent approaches when he is at high %? He's literally stopping the fight and running the timer if he does that, it's painfully obvious when considering the no-planking suggestion I posted... Of course, I'll see if I can make a 'shorter, sweeter and with no judge needed' version of it, and keep editing it with feedback by other players...

... Unless you would rather not settle for compromises and outright take care of MK. I have no problem with that, but I'd rather exhaust my options before attempting to split the community even more.

That's stupid and totally destroys the whole concept of ledge pressuring someone. I can tell you that this is stupid. If you're going to have any rules like this, they need to be MK specific.

 

[Kewkky]

That's stupid and totally destroys the whole concept of ledge pressuring someone. I can tell you that this is stupid. If you're going to have any rules like this, they need to be MK specific.

It's easy to say something's stupid. It's hard trying to find a less-stupid way to take care of a problem besides saying it's stupid. You get me? -_-

If we don't start anywhere, we'll never get anywhere. Use your common sense instead of your flaming sense.


Plus it doesn't destroy the whole concept of ledge-pressuring. If you want to pressure them, go ahead, they'll stay on the ledge and you can try whatever you want to kill them. Nothing changes from normal play, except the addition of a ruling that forces a player back on-stage when it's completely safe to do so (unless you don't believe in powershields)... If you want to pressure an opponent, just stay near them and keep an eye on them like you do right now. Since you can't ledge pressure opponents like MK, there's the option of giving them lots of space and forcing them to land on the stage due to how safe you've made it for him. If the opponent (or MK) still are on the ledge and refuse by all means landing on stage, then it's clear that he's not looking for a safe moment to get back on-stage, thus pointing out the planking/scrooging intentions.

 

[MarKO X]

Okay, here's a question:

you come back to the ledge, and you plank. The opponent steps away, allowing you get back on the stage. Now, when your opponent approaches you, you can just go back to the ledge.

lather, rinse, repeat?

oh, and what forces the opponent to get on the stage? why should someone in the lead be obligated to approach, or make any kind of forward movement?

 

[Kewkky]

Okay, here's a question:

you come back to the ledge, and you plank. The opponent steps away, allowing you get back on the stage. Now, when your opponent approaches you, you can just go back to the ledge.

lather, rinse, repeat?

oh, and what forces the opponent to get on the stage? why should someone in the lead be obligated to approach, or make any kind of forward movement?

I'm pretty sure I covered this in the explanations, but I'll see if I can simplify and detail it even more.

Ok, let's say MK got back up on the stage due to the opponent making space. The opponent approaches, so MK goes right back on the ledge... What was the purpose of this? MK is one of the best offensive characters, as well as defensive characters. Is there a reason as to why MK would prefer the ledge over increasing his advantage even more? He's equipped for these kinds of situations, I consider doing this another form of stalling... If Mk avoids all contact by placing him in a position the opponent would either take great damage or end up in a very unfavorable position because of it (such as MK's planking, following DMG's post), then it's breaking the game... So, if Mk retreats back to the ledge after you gave him the space he needs to recover, his intent is planking and should be penalized depending on what the penalty should be.

For other characters, pretty much the same thing applies. Bad characters will still be bad characters, good characters will still be good characters, it's not like EVERYONE depends on ledge games to win. They mostly grab the ledges to find an opening to recover properly, and that's it. You can still pressure them and make them stay on the ledge then punish their getup options just like you always do. My suggestion merely creates a new obligation which players must follow: If you give your opponent enough space to recover, they MUST recover and get off the ledge as soon as possible, seeing as there's no need to stay there. Would you normally give Zelda space for her to recover, or run to the other side of the stage? No, right? Then nothing changes, except the fact that now, whenever you encounter scrooging/planking opponents, they are forced to get onto the stage which is where we want them to be... This DEFINITELY gives campers an advantage, much like they have right now, except that plankers like MK can now be beaten by camping and the techniques won't be as broken as they are now.


I can explain again, just say the word. All I want is feedback, positive or negative, so we can keep morphing this premise around until it fits exactly what we need... If such a premise can ever be created.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Kewkky, what's to enforce this rule?

 

[MarKO X]

I'm pretty sure I covered this in the explanations, but I'll see if I can simplify and detail it even more.

Ok, let's say MK got back up on the stage due to the opponent making space. The opponent approaches, so MK goes right back on the ledge... What was the purpose of this? MK is one of the best offensive characters, as well as defensive characters. Is there a reason as to why MK would prefer the ledge over increasing his advantage even more? He's equipped for these kinds of situations, I consider doing this another form of stalling... If Mk avoids all contact by placing him in a position the opponent would either take great damage or end up in a very unfavorable position because of it (such as MK's planking, following DMG's post), then it's breaking the game... So, if Mk retreats back to the ledge after you gave him the space he needs to recover, his intent is planking and should be penalized depending on what the penalty should be.

You asked a question: Is there a reason as to why MK would prefer the ledge over increasing his advantage even more?

Well, consider MK's options. The opponent approaches, MK can shield and do whatever he wants OoS, he can spotdodge and retaliate accordingly, or he can go back to the ledge. If the MK shields incorrectly, he gets grabbed. If his spotdodge gets read, he takes damage. If he goes back to the ledge, he is, as you said, putting his opponent in a situation where he takes damage or he is put in an unfavorable position. The MK would go back to the ledge because that's his best option. Why would one not choose the best option?

For other characters, pretty much the same thing applies. Bad characters will still be bad characters, good characters will still be good characters, it's not like EVERYONE depends on ledge games to win. They mostly grab the ledges to find an opening to recover properly, and that's it. You can still pressure them and make them stay on the ledge then punish their getup options just like you always do. My suggestion merely creates a new obligation which players must follow: If you give your opponent enough space to recover, they MUST recover and get off the ledge as soon as possible, seeing as there's no need to stay there. Would you normally give Zelda space for her to recover, or run to the other side of the stage? No, right? Then nothing changes, except the fact that now, whenever you encounter scrooging/planking opponents, they are forced to get onto the stage which is where we want them to be... This DEFINITELY gives campers an advantage, much like they have right now, except that plankers like MK can now be beaten by camping and the techniques won't be as broken as they are now.

I can explain again, just say the word. All I want is feedback, positive or negative, so we can keep morphing this premise around until it fits exactly what we need... If such a premise can ever be created.

Why would a character stay on the ledge? Because 1) they feel as though they don't need to approach and/or 2) it's their best option.

You're creating an obligation for a character to move off the ledge if the opponent moves away. Bad characters will be bad, good characters will be good, but the reason you came up with this is because of... you guessed it... MK. Basically, you're creating an obligation for MK to not use his best option. It's like creating an obligation for DDD, Falco, or ICs to not use their chaingrabs. I don't think such an obligation should exist.

 

[Woo_Sheep]

How about if the time runs out, MK loses. (if it's a MK ditto or two non MKs, it's decided by stock-percentage like usual)

There's no way for MK to get around it, it doesn't require a judge, and it's not like any of the cast can time MK out to win.

It kinda sucks that MK would always have to approach, but he'd still be the best char in the game. Thoughts?

 

[Spelt]

How about if the time runs out, MK loses. (if it's a MK ditto or two non MKs, it's decided by stock-percentage like usual)

There's no way for MK to get around it, it doesn't require a judge, and it's not like any of the cast can time MK out to win.

It kinda sucks that MK would always have to approach, but he'd still be the best char in the game. Thoughts?

this has been suggested and denied so many times it's almost painful to read.

 

[Woo_Sheep]

-__- sorry if it's something that's been suggested & shot down before, but this thread's been spammed so much that there was no real way of me knowing. I've read a lot of this and didn't see it anywhere, at least not in recent memory.

What's wrong with it? That MK would be forced to approach?

 

[Kewkky]

You asked a question: Is there a reason as to why MK would prefer the ledge over increasing his advantage even more?

Well, consider MK's options. The opponent approaches, MK can shield and do whatever he wants OoS, he can spotdodge and retaliate accordingly, or he can go back to the ledge. If the MK shields incorrectly, he gets grabbed. If his spotdodge gets read, he takes damage. If he goes back to the ledge, he is, as you said, putting his opponent in a situation where he takes damage or he is put in an unfavorable position. The MK would go back to the ledge because that's his best option. Why would one not choose the best option?

Like I said, that last option shouldn't be allowed. It's pseudo-stalling, living his whole life on the ledge where no character can get him out (according to DMG's thread and research). My suggestion eliminates broken pseudo-stalling strategies completely, while leaving other characters as they are. Do you usually see a TL camping a ledge for the duration of a match? A Zelda? A Wario? A Marth? No, the only character we see doing this, even when you're right next to him but on-stage, is MK (maybe Pit and G&W too)... So, this is good for getting MK out of the ledge while not affecting any other characters' metagames and strategies... Every other character already tries to return on-stage when they're losing the lead, looking for a safe opportunity to do so, so as to not get an even greater disadvantage. If the opponent DECIDES on giving them the space to recover, then he shall do it, which would be his choice as a player and still could be done without my suggestion in place. With my suggestion in place, it is mandatory for ledge-lovers to touch the stage and stop holding up the fight in the hopes of stalling out the timer, which is exactly what planking+scrooging do.

Why would an MK want to grab the ledge? Well, to maintain a lead long enough for the timer to run out, thus winning the match. Why would he want to do this, even though he has the best offense:defense ratio? He doesn't even have disadvantaged stages, all the stages are good for him (some are less good than others)... There's no reason at all in which he should resort to a ledge game, besides stalling a match. Which is what I meant. And which is what I want to get rid of.

Why would a character stay on the ledge? Because 1) they feel as though they don't need to approach and/or 2) it's their best option.

You're creating an obligation for a character to move off the ledge if the opponent moves away. Bad characters will be bad, good characters will be good, but the reason you came up with this is because of... you guessed it... MK. Basically, you're creating an obligation for MK to not use his best option. It's like creating an obligation for DDD, Falco, or ICs to not use their chaingrabs. I don't think such an obligation should exist.

Isn't it sad how MK's best legit option (at the moment) is stalling the game out in a position the opponent simple can't overcome? It's almost like he's breaking the game by planking+scrooging or something...

If his best option breaks the game, then it needs to be removed. Already a couple of players (including BBR members) truly believe both planking and scrooging to be broken strategies, and I bet they'd love for the problems to be removed from the game before a ban on MK is imposed (in other words, exhausting every option and idea before resorting to absolutes). Why don't you want his planking and scrooging removed? What negative effects would you see happening to which characters because of my suggestion?

And, of course I came up with this rule because of MK! He perfected planking and scrooging, as well as still is the best character in the game. He's having yet another unfair advantage by keeping his pseudo-stalling options for tourney-use (planking and scrooging aren't legit strategies in my eyes). We're also talking in an MK Debate thread. :|

 

[hotgarbage]

-__- sorry if it's something that's been suggested & shot down before, but this thread's been spammed so much that there was no real way of me knowing. I've read a lot of this and didn't see it anywhere, at least not in recent memory.

What's wrong with it? That MK would be forced to approach?

In brief: because it would drastically change some core aspects the game; namely by altering optimal strategies. (read: this baaaaad, and an indicator of a very poor rule)

For instance, this rule would completely change the metagames of characters who can't otherwise deal with MK. Suddenly the question for these characters becomes not "how do I beat MK?" (note: they can't normally) but "how do I run away from MK?". After all, they have no obligation to engage MK in a losing battle at all now.... to win they just need to survive!
The rule is just too intrusive.... and actually would probably lead to an indirect MK ban because no one would want to play him and have to deal with such a severe, artificial limitation .

 

[Nanaki]

-__- sorry if it's something that's been suggested & shot down before, but this thread's been spammed so much that there was no real way of me knowing. I've read a lot of this and didn't see it anywhere, at least not in recent memory.

What's wrong with it? That MK would be forced to approach?

The biggest problems with it are the following scenarios:

1) MK and character X fight a defensive match where neither ones "stalls", but both play their defense well and don't take many hits. The timer comes down to 1 minute left, with MK ahead by a stock. At this point, character X decides to run out the final minute.

Even though MK was ahead and played a legit match, he loses. That's extremely unfair. Much more unfair than banning the character.

2) Character X counterpicks Rainbow Cruise and runs away for 8 minutes, winning by default even though he scored no kills and racked 10% damage.

Basically, you're trying to stop 1 character from "stalling" by encouraging 38 other ones to "stall".

Nothing wrong with bringing it up though, I wouldn't want to dig through the thousands of posts to find it.

Enormous piles of stuff

My biggest issue with your rule is that you're completely interrupting the flow of the match and interfering with how the game plays at a basic level. It sounds eerily similar to the 'Punch Time!' rule I brought up in the Planking thread (Ganon can call 'Punch Time!' and get a free warlock punch at any point 2 times per match).

It's doing basically the same thing, just in a more friendly manner.

 

[<π]

MK really isn't as bad as you guys are making him out to be. sit down with a good MK and play him a lot you'll get better at the match up. Stop complaining about stuff that doesn't.

 

[Kewkky]

I don't know how it interrupts the flow of a match. Normally, every character that doesn't have planking capabilities have no reason at all to camp ledges since they can be punished heavily due to this, so players who are fighting against those characters can continue their matches completely normal, ignoring the fact that the rule exists. On-stagers continue to edgeguard, off-stagers continue trying to bypass the edgeguards and return on-stage where they have a better chance of winning... There's no reason why the on-stagers would give them space for them to land on-stage, so the ledge pressuring is completely unaffected. If you're knocked offstage and you want to survive, you're gonna aim to go on-stage while your opponent won't let you and attempt to gimp you/kill you. He's NEVER gonna run off to the other side of the stage unless he's a Falco or something, where we always see the non-falco player recover then start ducking under/(power)shielding/reflecting/absorbing the lasers. All gameplay remains exactly the same as it was when my suggestion was never in play in this hypothetical scenario.

The only scenario my suggestion would come into play is if the opponent is excessively grabbing the ledge (by act of planking/scrooging of course, or any scenario which is reminiscent of these pseudo-stalling techniques). If you're any type of character returning onto the stage due to being knocked far away, your goal is ALWAYS to make it back on-stage and attempt to retake the lead, or gain some ground with which to help maintain your lead. Ledgeplay like planking+scrooging have been called broken by many players, and if you resort to planking/scrooging during this scenario, then now your opponent has a way of forcing you on-stage with no judge having to be present in order for you to follow the basic rules of a fighting game AND FIGHT. () The only way this interrupts the flow of a match, is by getting the plankers/scroogers off the ledge without having to jump into a very bad position.

 

[Woo_Sheep]

Thanks nanaki & garbage it's kinda obvious in retrospect but oh well

 

[Kewkky]

MK really isn't as bad as you guys are making him out to be. sit down with a good MK and play him a lot you'll get better at the match up. Stop complaining about stuff that doesn't.

MK ISN'T as bad when pitted vs him head-to-head! GEEZ we're not saying it's impossible to beat his tornado or something! Why do people keep coming in here and assuming we're oblivious to the way MK can be beaten head-to-head?

<3, have you ever played against an MK that ONLY planks and scrooges, after he gains a good lead? An MK who never touches the stage for fear of you hitting him, even if you're in a vulnerable position due to an accident or whatever? An MK that is just waiting for you to try and get him off the ledge for him to punish you heavily for trying anything? I truly believe you haven't, and you're being too optimistic with this whole thing... MK as a character can be beaten (I literally 3-stock MKs here in PR during tourneys, I know he can be beaten), but his planking+scrooging can't, and even worse if the opponent is determined to do it for an ENTIRE MATCH and time you out.

 

[MarKO X]

Like I said, that last option shouldn't be allowed. It's pseudo-stalling, living his whole life on the ledge where no character can get him out (according to DMG's thread and research). My suggestion eliminates broken pseudo-stalling strategies completely, while leaving other characters as they are. Do you usually see a TL camping a ledge for the duration of a match? A Zelda? A Wario? A Marth? No, the only character we see doing this, even when you're right next to him but on-stage, is MK (maybe Pit and G&W too)... So, this is good for getting MK out of the ledge while not affecting any other characters' metagames and strategies... Every other character already tries to return on-stage when they're losing the lead, looking for a safe opportunity to do so, so as to not get an even greater disadvantage. If the opponent DECIDES on giving them the space to recover, then he shall do it, which would be his choice as a player and still could be done without my suggestion in place. With my suggestion in place, it is mandatory for ledge-lovers to touch the stage and stop holding up the fight in the hopes of stalling out the timer, which is exactly what planking+scrooging do.

If MK's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't MK DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Snake's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't Snake DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Falco's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't Falco DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Pit's opponent DECIDES to give Pit the space, why can't Pit DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
Why is stalling out the timer not a legit strategy? (i know you didn't say that, but what it seems to be implying)

Why would an MK want to grab the ledge? Well, to maintain a lead long enough for the timer to run out, thus winning the match. Why would he want to do this, even though he has the best offense:defense ratio? He doesn't even have disadvantaged stages, all the stages are good for him (some are less good than others)... There's no reason at all in which he should resort to a ledge game, besides stalling a match. Which is what I meant. And which is what I want to get rid of.

Why would a Pit want to grab the ledge?
Why would Falco, Falcon, Snake, Marth, DDD want to grab the ledge?

Isn't it sad how MK's best legit option (at the moment) is stalling the game out in a position the opponent simple can't overcome? It's almost like he's breaking the game by planking+scrooging or something...

So if MK is breaking the game by planking+scrooging, but no one else is, is planking+scrooging broken?

If his best option breaks the game, then it needs to be removed. Already a couple of players (including BBR members) truly believe both planking and scrooging to be broken strategies, and I bet they'd love for the problems to be removed from the game before a ban on MK is imposed (in other words, exhausting every option and idea before resorting to absolutes). Why don't you want his planking and scrooging removed? What negative effects would you see happening to which characters because of my suggestion?

If a player can't deal with the planking/scrooging of another character for whatever reason, such as he's actually taking some kind of damage against it and doesn't want to take the risk, he's given the option of moving away, and his opponent HAS to get up on the stage. If the character's planking/scrooging isn't broken, why should the character HAVE to get up on the stage? There's two minutes left in an intensely defensive match, I'm on the ledge, and I have the lead. I would like to dare my opponent to come get me, especially in a game of such defensive nature, rather than risk getting on the stage prematurely because the opponent gave me space and thus I am required to get on stage.

And, of course I came up with this rule because of MK! He perfected planking and scrooging, as well as still is the best character in the game. He's having yet another unfair advantage by keeping his pseudo-stalling options for tourney-use (planking and scrooging aren't legit strategies in my eyes). We're also talking in an MK Debate thread. :|

what are his other unfair advantages in tourney-use?
what makes those other unfair advantages ok to use?

 

[<π]

I've asked people to try... I play sheik though so I can't really be planked. I have a tether and I can forcefully take the stage if they let go to take advantage of invulnerability and vanish to force them off if they still refuse to let go.

It feels like most characters can do something about planking to me. Its about being intelligent and waiting out invulnerability. D.pch I think made a thread about it.
scrooging is difficult to counter though regardless of who you use. but that can only be used reliably the whole time on one stage.

 

[Kewkky]

If MK's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't MK DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Snake's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't Snake DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Falco's opponent DECIDES to give MK the space, why can't Falco DECIDE to stay on the ledge?
If Pit's opponent DECIDES to give Pit the space, why can't Pit DECIDE to stay on the ledge?

Because my suggestion FORCES the player to get back on the stage when the space is given. Anyone who simply walks past the TV and glances at the game can notice this, just like how the IDC can be noticed by just glancing at a TV screen. There's nothing that you can do in-game to prove to a TO that MK used an IDC, right? With a Wii that has no infinite-replay codes, replay-saving for proof of IDC usage is impossible, thus players can get away with it if they decide it's cool to do it since they won't get caught by the TO. They can just lie and argue against the other player if their motive was to do so! And yet, the ruling's there... Why can't the same concept be applied to planking+scrooging? If the ruling says that [/i]"...then the opponent is forced to go on-stage and avoid the ledge until hit/knocked off the stage/some other limiter"[/i] then what's the big deal with it?

Why is stalling out the timer not a legit strategy? (i know you didn't say that, but what it seems to be implying)

It's legit, but not by stalling it in a way that the opponent has no way of fighting your strategy. IDC was banned because of how it could be used to stall the timer, and how the opponent could do nothing against it. Planking+scrooging if done right (according to DMG's post) are similar to that trait of IDC, which is that opponents have a near-impossible time managing around it, making it become a broken strategy, at least when MK is performing it. Scrooging is broken no matter who performs it, but only MK's planking is banworthy. Would we want to make a surgical change and ban MK's planking, or should we make it universal and ban ALL planking?

Why would a Pit want to grab the ledge?
Why would Falco, Falcon, Snake, Marth, DDD want to grab the ledge?

Recovery purposes. Which my suggestion covers. Pit is the only exception, and only because his scrooging is as good as MK's, so he can exploit that game mechanic as well... Meaning that my suggestion would take care of his scrooging and 'planking'.

So if MK is breaking the game by planking+scrooging, but no one else is, is planking+scrooging broken?

Yes, because the potential to break the game is there and has been exploited by at least 1 character. If MK is shown breaking the game ONLY by doing those strategies, then those strategies are obviously priority and should be addressed before MK as a character is brought up for a ban (ergo, exhausting every option before accounting to absolutes). Now, my question:

If MK is shown to be less of a problem in every way that he currently is with planking+scrooging gone, but no one else is shown to have been affected, is MK broken?

If a player can't deal with the planking/scrooging of another character for whatever reason, such as he's actually taking some kind of damage against it and doesn't want to take the risk, he's given the option of moving away, and his opponent HAS to get up on the stage. If the character's planking/scrooging isn't broken, why should the character HAVE to get up on the stage? There's two minutes left in an intensely defensive match, I'm on the ledge, and I have the lead. I would like to dare my opponent to come get me, especially in a game of such defensive nature, rather than risk getting on the stage prematurely because the opponent gave me space and thus I am required to get on stage.

If it's an intensely defensive match, why is the opponent even trying to approach you? The one who approaches loses, and if you have a lead, that means you're probably going to win by forcing yourdefensive opponent to go offensive. I'd be honored if my opponent allowed me to go back on-stage safely, instead of pressuring my recovery while I'm attempting to go back on-stage and finish the match. He's putting himself in an unfavorable position as well by running all the way to the other side of the stage, thus allowing my defensive character to set up his area and continue camping/whatever defensive options he has to run the timer. The option for my opponent to approach me and beat me still stands, meaning that the competition of who the best player is, is still active in the match. If I beat him, I'm clearly the better player. If he beats me, he'sclearly the better player. One of us outplayed our opponent and gained victory because of that. What's wrong with that? Or are you telling me you'd rather have pseudo-stalling techniques such as planking+scrooging be a major part of defensive gaming?

what are his other unfair advantages in tourney-use?
what makes those other unfair advantages ok to use?

I think 'unfair' was too subjective of a word for me to use. I changed my mind and want to change the word to "powerful". Do your questions still stand? My point still does.

 

[MarKO X]

Because my suggestion FORCES the player to get back on the stage when the space is given. Anyone who simply walks past the TV and glances at the game can notice this, just like how the IDC can be noticed by just glancing at a TV screen. There's nothing that you can do in-game to prove to a TO that MK used an IDC, right? With a Wii that has no infinite-replay codes, replay-saving for proof of IDC usage is impossible, thus players can get away with it if they decide it's cool to do it since they won't get caught by the TO. They can just lie and argue against the other player if their motive was to do so! And yet, the ruling's there... Why can't the same concept be applied to planking+scrooging? If the ruling says that [/i]"...then the opponent is forced to go on-stage and avoid the ledge until hit/knocked off the stage/some other limiter"[/i] then what's the big deal with it?

The big deal is that you are forcing a player to make a move that he doesn't and shouldn't normally have to make. If a player is pressuring a non-MK/Pit/*insert good planker here* player on the ledge that has the lead (for clarity, the player on the ledge has the lead) , but he can't get anything good out of pressuring the opponent for whatever reason if 2 minutes are left, why are we giving that player the option of moving away from the ledge and forcing the player with the lead to come on stage? That's what I don't get.

It's legit, but not by stalling it in a way that the opponent has no way of fighting your strategy. IDC was banned because of how it could be used to stall the timer, and how the opponent could do nothing against it. Planking+scrooging if done right (according to DMG's post) are similar to that trait of IDC, which is that opponents have a near-impossible time managing around it, making it become a broken strategy, at least when MK is performing it. Scrooging is broken no matter who performs it, but only MK's planking is banworthy. Would we want to make a surgical change and ban MK's planking, or should we make it universal and ban ALL planking?

Isn't banning ALL planking a surgical change?
Regardless, you do neither. If you have a technique available to all characters and that can be used minimally by all characters and better by some characters, but it broken with one character, you should probably ban that character.

Recovery purposes. Which my suggestion covers. Pit is the only exception, and only because his scrooging is as good as MK's, so he can exploit that game mechanic as well... Meaning that my suggestion would take care of his scrooging and 'planking'.

You say that scrooging is broken regardless of who's using it. Let's assume I agree with you.
So you're all for banning Pit's planking even it isn't broken?

Yes, because the potential to break the game is there and has been exploited by at least 1 character. If MK is shown breaking the game ONLY by doing those strategies, then those strategies are obviously priority and should be addressed before MK as a character is brought up for a ban (ergo, exhausting every option before accounting to absolutes). Now, my question:

If MK is shown to be less of a problem in every way that he currently is with planking+scrooging gone, but no one else is shown to have been affected, is MK broken?

No, because you removed everything that makes him broken. Could I compare it to removing the laser from a gun that has a laser to help aim? Yes, I can still use the gun, but the laser helped me aim at my targets better. The gun is better with the laser than it is without the laser. (possibly subjective use of the word "better" with the attempt at the gun analogy, i know)

If it's an intensely defensive match, why is the opponent even trying to approach you? The one who approaches loses, and if you have a lead, that means you're probably going to win by forcing your defensive opponent to go offensive. I'd be honored if my opponent allowed me to go back on-stage safely, instead of pressuring my recovery while I'm attempting to go back on-stage and finish the match. He's putting himself in an unfavorable position as well by running all the way to the other side of the stage, thus allowing my defensive character to set up his area and continue camping/whatever defensive options he has to run the timer. The option for my opponent to approach me and beat me still stands, meaning that the competition of who the best player is, is still active in the match. If I beat him, I'm clearly the better player. If he beats me, he'sclearly the better player. One of us outplayed our opponent and gained victory because of that. What's wrong with that? Or are you telling me you'd rather have pseudo-stalling techniques such as planking+scrooging be a major part of defensive gaming?

Honor... what is honor? I thought we were playing to win.
If the ledge is a defensive position, is ledge pressure not offensive?
If the opponent runs to the other side of the stage and is putting himself in a disadvantageous position, while your position on the ledge is very advantageous, why do I have to come up off the ledge again?
What's wrong with it is that you are forcing players to make moves that they shouldn't have to make. You're removing options from every character in the game, mainly because of one character.

I think 'unfair' was too subjective of a word for me to use. I changed my mind and want to change the word to "powerful". Do your questions still stand? My point still does.

wait for the edit so I can see what the questions were... I forgot. lol

edit:
what are his other powerful advantages in tourney-use?
what makes those other powerful advantages ok to use?

 

[Cold Fusion]

The only guaranteed way to stop MK from planking and scrooging is by banning him.

 

[<π]

The only guaranteed way to stop MK from planking and scrooging is by banning him.

false .

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then what's your suggestion.


I've been brainstorming ways but I have yet to figure out a way around it.


Btw, the primary advantage scrooging seems to offer is allowing him to his invulnerable period, making lgr ineffective.

 

[MarKO X]

false .

this.
even if you ban MK, he can still plank and scroog. just not in tourney.

@adumbrodeus, look at kewkky's idea and see if you like it or not.

 

[St. Viers]

For the record, I liked the list of stages that could be added to make it harder for MK to scrooge/plank. However, w/ stage striking, you wouldn't be able to get him onto one of those neutrals, so it wouldn't be too useful.

 

[Spelt]

with kewkky's suggestion:

the MK starts planking. opponent moves away from the ledge. MK gets off of ledge. Stands/jumps around there until opponent moves closer. MK goes back on ledge.

anybody without a projectile would be completely screwed.

or they could just glide to the other side whenever the opponent goes to the other side of the stage.

people with projectiles are screwed.

 

[<π]

sounds like people need to learn how to beat planking then.

 

[MarKO X]

sounds like people need to learn how to beat planking then.

so teach us, oh great one.

 

[St. Viers]

@<3: the problem is with only a 3 frame window to do so (and getting to a place where that window is available would allow the MK to either go onstage and force *you* to recover, or get you gimped), beating planking isn't as easy as you make it seem.

However, I thought of something, prompted by someone else's thoughts.

I do agree that if the problem is "well, I'm not stalling, simply jockeying for a better position," than being far enough away to allow the MK back onto the stage should mean that the MK has to go back onstage, or else they were lying about not stalling. I saw some people ask why the MK should have to go onstage if they weren't being forced to, and the answer is "staying on the edge for no other reason except to waste time" is obvious and easily noticed stalling.

BBR's current definition of stalling is "The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

If one were to give the MK ample room to get off the ledge safely, than them hanging there, with the threat of unbeatable planking as an answer to you approaching them, is

1a. Deliberately avoiding any and all conflict
1b. Doing so in a way that makes the game unplayable (neither the opponent approaching nor backing off will allow anything to happen.

To counter the obvious "well, then than the player not approaching is stalling as well, I would point out that, he would be
2. Running away to ensure a better position [the MK coming onto the stage], which is not considered stalling.

The only thing that would need to happen is give a definite distance from the ledge that is deemed non-threatening. Once decided, there would be a discrete and easily enforceable rule that allows the MK to plank when he isn't stalling with it, and at the same time disallows the MK from planking to stall, as the other character can retreat, and if the MK continues to remain on the ledge, it is definite stalling. A further plus is that this rule could be non-MK specific, and not change the way any other character plays drastically. If a G&W tries planking, you can either retreat and make him come up, or try and knock him off (easier than against MK), and while you do that, he can try planking.

 

[<π]

K.

MK unfortunately isn't permanently invincible once he touches a ledge, then I'd be wrong.

he has X amount of invul frames when he grabs the edge. like most characters in the game. in order to refresh that invulnerability he needs to regrab the ledge.

BUT WAIT! there is a timer that forces you to wait a set amount of time before you can regrab! even with optimal timing you won't be invincible the full time. For any good character, apparently by my definition sheik is one of them. That is more than enough time to take advantage of this would be planker. others include characters with invicible/super armor or very disjointed upBs and tether grabs who can literally force MK off the stage after his invulnerability is up but don't fear getting hit (or at least knocked back)
So characters like Charizard, like peach, marth, DK, ivy, ZSS sheik. you can litterally jump off stage and wait and MK can do nothing especially if you take advantage of the almost half second where he can't do anything after he grabbed the ledge to capitalized your distance between him.

Next you have speacial projectiles. links' bombs, peach's tunips, Zamus's armor wario's bike peices, banana's, din's fire, etc. where with half decent timing you can time for his invunerability to run out drop the item or explode it or what ever, at the very least with all of these character you force MK back on stage with a roll or a stand up or attack up.

Obviously it isn't a simple as I spelled it out but planking is no where near impossible to beat. If I could wrap my head around a way for Shiek to get through it in two seconds I know other characters have ways though it too.

 

[MarKO X]

"Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling."

How is MK retreating to the ledge (a better position) stalling under this definition?

@ <3: this is optimal MK planking (at least with total invincibility):
step 1: grab the ledge
step 2: ledge drop (ledge drop fast enough, and you'll literally still see the invincibility flash as you drop)
step 3: down B (once again, fast enough and you can see MK go from visible to invisible with the invincibility flash, nullifying downB's vulnerability)
step 4: regrab the ledge.

lather, rinse, repeat.

MK's planking is a different type of beast man. You can bypass Smart Bombs, Dragoon Shots, Gooey Bombs, and Final Smashes with planking. It's broken now.

 

[St. Viers]

it's his staying there, and not coming off of it that is.

@<3 did you look at DMG's planking info thread? It explain how neither of those ideas are effective. Projectiles like din's fire, or charizard's flamebreath can be gotten around by using down-B to recover, which keeps the MK invincible the entire time. Proectiles like wario's bike of zamus' armor pieces don't work because the MK can simply take the hit while invincible, or again down B and remain invincible the entire time if the item thrower is far enough away.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stuff

*points to DMG's thread*

6 frames of vulnerability when regrabbing the ledge.

GL

 

[Spelt]

Tethers will get ***** by MKs aerials.
even if well timed.
just wanna put this out there to stop that propaganda before it spreads.

you also don't have enough time with a 6 frame window to drop off the ledge and up b or anything else of the sort.
if you drop down before that congrats. you just earned a uair to your face.