Official Metaknight Discussion

[JRob]

Let me approach this a different way.



I'm confused...

DMG's data is telling us that MK has a perfect ledge game... in theory, I guess.

Why is there still discussion about possibly banning him, given that assumption is true?- the assumption being that his ledge play is indeed perfect.

Are we waiting for TOs to stop with the LGL nonsense, and then for players to abuse the lack thereof? Is it not common thought that MK with perfect ledge play is too much for this game/community to handle? Or are people still caught up with the "banning MK as a dead-last resort" attitude?

If the latter is the case, I'd like to bring up my most recent post in this thread...

 

[J4pu]

w/o MK DDD will become more common
last I checked Marth had 3 "bad" matchups (40:60): MK, Snake, DDD
I believe Marths recently saw advances in the Snake mu to bring it to even or slightly their favor but as far as I know DDD is still a weak counter to Marth and will become more prominent should MK be banned.
Will DDD take out Marths left and right the way MK does? Probably not, but then again I don't think 85% of the top players are going to pick up DDD as a main, so it isn't really a fair comparison in that respect.
Marth can also be counterpicked in stages, very few characters could take MK to a stage that improved them more than it improved MK, let alone improved them to a point where the match-up was in their favor.

 

[ElDominio]

Common sense

Great source there. I'll be sure to quote you on anything that ever needs reliable proof.

The "always wins" thing comes from the fact that too much of the board doesn't understand match-up ratios.

Spoiler

I didn't even notice 8 MKs were in the top 10 until it was brought up earlier in this thread, which was still a bit after Pound 4. I was like "wat ADHD won waow"

Cool! So you completely forgot that? Isn't that great?

I personally believe that Marth is going to take place of MK if he is banned.

MK is like the only reason Marth isn't the best character in the game, so a new threat that'll take up around a 1/3 of the metagame will awake if MK is banned. Marth won't dominate AS badly as MK, but he'll probably end up a large chunk higher than whoever is at #2 in an MK banned world.

FINE! He'll be first place (in your world), but he won't be in his own S tier for sure.

 

[Delvro]

Let me approach this a different way.

I'm confused...

DMG's data is telling us that MK has a perfect ledge game... in theory, I guess.

Why is there still discussion about possibly banning him, given that assumption is true?- the assumption being that his ledge play is indeed perfect.

DMG's data is yet another shelf in the library of data that we have gathered proving that MK is not fit for a competitive brawl.... there's also Crow's monumental plethora of evidence.... yet people can just plug their ears and deny that MK is an issue that desperately needs to be fixed.

Step one.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[Chuee]

Fox, Pit, and Lucario won't move up without mk...................

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1. Marth can't plank well
2. Marth has matchups other than MK that are slight losses.

 

[fkacyan]

@Delvro: If the result of banning MK simply makes it so that another character is equally dominant, then why bother banning the character? The idea of banning him is to create a better game, and if it doesn't, that defeats the purpose.

Also, LOL@ the notion that his points would be evenly distributed. Any remaining MK players would likely go to the next top two or three characters.

EDIT: Wow, you're obviously a bit behind on what the data gathered by pro-ban means. Everything minus DMG's data simply proves that he is very dominant. And? This level of dominance being acceptable is still open for debate. The main issue now is planking - if an adequate way of dealing with it isn't found, ostensibly MK will be banned. Prior to DMG's data, all that was proven was that MK was dominant, and that we should research a metagame without him (i.e. temp ban) to find out if the metagame would improve.

OS and Crow have done a lot for pro-ban, but don't exaggerate it and say that they proved he wasn't fit for a competitive game, because they haven't. DMG is the closest to doing so, if anybody is at all.

 

[ElDominio]

@Delvro: If the result of banning MK simply makes it so that another character is equally dominant, then why bother banning the character? The idea of banning him is to create a better game, and if it doesn't, that defeats the purpose.

Also, LOL@ the notion that his points would be evenly distributed. Any remaining MK players would likely go to the next top two or three characters.

EDIT: Wow, you're obviously a bit behind on what the data gathered by pro-ban means. Everything minus DMG's data simply proves that he is very dominant. And? This level of dominance being acceptable is still open for debate. The main issue now is planking - if an adequate way of dealing with it isn't found, ostensibly MK will be banned. Prior to DMG's data, all that was proven was that MK was dominant, and that we should research a metagame without him (i.e. temp ban) to find out if the metagame would improve.

OS and Crow have done a lot for pro-ban, but don't exaggerate it and say that they proved he wasn't fit for a competitive game, because they haven't. DMG is the closest to doing so, if anybody is at all.

First point. We have told you, it WON'T, no one else is capable of reaching that type of dominance. We have discussed this point.

Second point (edit): GREAT! We do! and is that your best argument??? "yeah DMG finally put the nail on the coffin.... so... ummm.... I'll just stay anti-ban because MK rules."

 

[Delvro]

@Delvro: If the result of banning MK simply makes it so that another character is equally dominant, then why bother banning the character? The idea of banning him is to create a better game, and if it doesn't, that defeats the purpose.

Also, LOL@ the notion that his points would be evenly distributed. Any remaining MK players would likely go to the next top two or three characters.

You clearly didn't read my post. I said unevenly distributed.

And.... do you truly think that another character would become equally dominant with MK banned? You do realize that in order for this to have a chance of occuring, you need to have a character that has no disadvantageous matchups, sans MK?

Brawl is a game of counterpicks. Every character is subject to this..... except for MK. That is why the character is leagues above any other character within the game.

I will enjoy what results from DMG's information that it's possible for MK to plank in a manner that is realistically nearly unbeatable.

In addition to that, you seem to underestimate what has been done prior to DMG's data. I'm looking forward to seeing how the BBR reacts to DMG's "nail in the coffin", but considering that OS and Crow examined every single point that anti-ban stood on in their "official stance" (in the last Metaknight debate) and pulverized it (nearly a month ago).... then I am slightly confused as to why DMG's well researched data is even necessary to show that MK needs to be banned.

 

[Gnes]

BTW, M2K is much more skilled than Gnes, if the video didn't make it blatently obvious. Its not that its hes playing MK, its that hes better anyways.

DDD makes stages unplayable, and ICs makes some characters unplayable, so why are we not banning them? (instead of banning the stages, such as in DDD's case)

LMAFO...good stuff...

 

[fkacyan]

First point. We have told you, it WON'T, no one else is capable of reaching that type of dominance. We have discussed this point.

Second point (edit): GREAT! We do! and is that your best argument??? "yeah DMG finally put the nail on the coffin.... so... ummm.... I'll just stay anti-ban because MK rules."

1) You can't actually prove that, broski. Not without actual data from a LOT of MK-banned tourneys with the same players we have now playing. And you don't, so drop it.

2) I said DMG is the closest. Not that he had. If a way of dealing with planking from a ruleset standpoint can be agreed on in order to ban the technique, then we're back to the previous point which is: "We need to test this with a temp ban, but MLG is starting up, so what happens now?"

EDIT: @Delvro: My personal opinion is that we'd have a metagame with 3 or 4 viable characters for money placings with MK banned, but my opinion means nothing; it's all about 'dat data.

Also, I figure I should mention that I'm pro-temp ban ignoring planking, and pro-ban provided that a method of outlawing planking can't be found. I'm just not willing to rush into a ban without all other options having been explored first; that is, ban being a last resort, and not a way to get rid of my perceived reason for losing and not enjoying the game, which is what many random posters for pro-ban seem to be arguing the case for.

 

[ElDominio]

1) You can't actually prove that, broski. Not without actual data from a LOT of MK-banned tourneys with the same players we have now playing. And you don't, so drop it.

2) I said DMG is the closest. Not that he had. If a way of dealing with planking from a ruleset standpoint can be agreed on in order to ban the technique, then we're back to the previous point which is: "We need to test this with a temp ban, but MLG is starting up, so what happens now?"

EDIT: @Delvro: My personal opinion is that we'd have a metagame with 3 or 4 viable characters for money placings with MK banned, but my opinion means nothing; it's all about 'dat data.

Also, I figure I should mention that I'm pro-temp ban ignoring planking, and pro-ban provided that a method of outlawing planking can't be found. I'm just not willing to rush into a ban without all other options having been explored first; that is, ban being a last resort, and not a way to get rid of my perceived reason for losing and not enjoying the game, which is what many random posters for pro-ban seem to be arguing the case for.

Ah!!!! Invisible call-out!!!!

Good. I'm all for temp ban too... Really anything, it's just that I fail to see how can we apply any of the "restrictions for MK" in a viable way without making tourney's much more complicated and tedious to host.

About the first point, you don't either, so we're both wrong until one of us is proven right.

 

[fkacyan]

Ah!!!! Invisible call-out!!!!

Good. I'm all for temp ban too... Really anything, it's just that I fail to see how can we apply any of the "restrictions for MK" in a viable way without making tourney's much more complicated and tedious to host.

About the first point, you don't either, so we're both wrong until one of us is proven right.

I wasn't speaking in absolutes in regards to the first point. All I said was, "What if it makes the game worse?", which is a valid concern, as not much inquiry has been made as to an MK-less metagame.

Fun fact: If you move your finger one key to the right when typing MK, you get NJ. THE INVENTOR OF THE QWERTY KEYBOARD IS CLEARLY CLAIRVOYANT.

 

[Delvro]

1) You can't actually prove that, broski. Not without actual data from a LOT of MK-banned tourneys with the same players we have now playing. And you don't, so drop it.

You are wrong. There is actual data, and plenty of it. It's called match-up ratings, and they have been modified and fine tuned since the release of the game. The numbers are subjective and difficult to determine what they actually mean, but there is one thing that EVERYBODY can agree on.

And that is that if this number is over 50, the character will do better, on average, in an evenly skilled match than his opponent.

Metaknight is the only character in the game where every matchup number is over 50. If this wasn't the case, then the character who held a matchup where metaknight is under 50 would rise in rankings (and Metaknight would fall lower in rankings), until Metaknight is no longer dominant enough to require more players of MK's theoretical bad match up.

With Metaknight gone, every character has a match-up below 50. Thus we can conclude that it is impossible for any other character can become dominant. Because if it was possible, then it would simply cause an increase in said character's bad match-ups until the first character was no longer dominant.

Something like this should be obvious, I would think. Do you..... honestly believe that there is a possibility for some other character to suddenly come out of the woodwork and dominate if MK were banned?

 

[salaboB]

Something like this should be obvious, I would think. Do you..... honestly believe that there is a possibility for some other character to suddenly come out of the woodwork and dominate if MK were banned?

Much as it's been beaten to death...

Banning MK is a global change, his removal would change no matchups between anyone else. Thus nobody else can jump to dominance unless we've completely misjudged a MU between two high tier characters (Which would be utterly unpredictable, and would need an immediate re-examination of MK's ban if something like that happened)

 

[fkacyan]

You are wrong. There is actual data, and plenty of it. It's called match-up ratings, and they have been modified and fine tuned since the release of the game. The numbers are subjective and difficult to determine what they actually mean, but there is one thing that EVERYBODY can agree on.

And that is that if this number is over 50, the character will do better, on average, in an evenly skilled match than his opponent.

Metaknight is the only character in the game where every matchup number is over 50. If this wasn't the case, then the character who held a matchup where metaknight is under 50 would rise in rankings (and Metaknight would fall lower in rankings), until Metaknight is no longer dominant enough to require more players of MK's theoretical bad match up.

With Metaknight gone, every character has a match-up below 50. Thus we can conclude that it is impossible for any other character can become dominant. Because if it was possible, then it would simply cause an increase in said character's bad match-ups until the first character was no longer dominant.

Something like this should be obvious, I would think. Do you..... honestly believe that there is a possibility for some other character to suddenly come out of the woodwork and dominate if MK were banned?

This is where I post facepalm pictures.

 

[Delvro]

Much as it's been beaten to death...

Banning MK is a global change, his removal would change no matchups between anyone else. Thus nobody else can jump to dominance unless we've completely misjudged a MU between two high tier characters (Which would be utterly unpredictable, and would need an immediate re-examination of MK's ban if something like that happened)

There is one possible case where another character can jump to dominance if MK were banned... and that is if there exists a character whose Only non-advantageous matchup is MK and himself.

As far as I know, however, such a character does not exist.

 

[salaboB]

There is one possible case where another character can jump to dominance if MK were banned... and that is if there exists a character whose Only non-advantageous matchup is MK and himself.

As far as I know, however, such a character does not exist.

Right, but we know the MUs between the top characters -- and they're top because they have the least bad matchups (In general). There is none unless there's been a rather huge mistake.

 

[fkacyan]

There is one possible case where another character can jump to dominance if MK were banned... and that is if there exists a character whose Only non-advantageous matchup is MK and himself.

As far as I know, however, such a character does not exist.

Non-advantageous and non-even, against relevant characters. For example, being countered by Ganon (Not that anybody is, I hope) wouldn't matter much because you'd never want to go in with Ganon on a double blind.

I think you're totally missing the point of what I'm saying, though, but that's OK, because in all honesty, you matter about as much as I do, and that is not at all.

 

[Delvro]

This is where I post facepalm pictures.

You are the one arguing that it's possible for another character to become dominant with MK banned, despite absolutely no evidence suggesting that is the case.

It's like you're intentionally spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about what will happen with MK banned.

Can you give a single piece of evidence showing the possibility of a dominant character in an MK banned metagame, and who that character could possibly be?

If you cannot, then you might want to quit insulting me.

 

[Delvro]

Non-advantageous and non-even, against relevant characters. For example, being countered by Ganon (Not that anybody is, I hope) wouldn't matter much because you'd never want to go in with Ganon on a double blind.

This makes sense. I suppose I must modify my original claim, then. However, you could still use Ganon during your match, but only after a loss (since you get to see your opponent's choice of character before you choose your own)

It's important to note that players who main multiple characters often make it into Ankoku's data, and when they do, they both count equally.

 

[fkacyan]

You are the one arguing that it's possible for another character to become dominant with MK banned, despite absolutely no evidence suggesting that is the case.

It's like you're intentionally spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about what will happen with MK banned.

Can you give a single piece of evidence showing the possibility of a dominant character in an MK banned metagame, and who that character could possibly be?

If you cannot, then you might want to quit insulting me.

This is where I post another facepalm picture.

You are arguing with the specifics of a hypothetical being used merely to illustrate the point that beyond a certain point, you cannot prove what the metagame will look like post-MK.

Have fun arguing with a point I never actually made, I'll be catching up on anime now.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Anime fans are the worst people.

 

[Delvro]

Oh, so now you're backpedalling?

1) You can't actually prove that, broski. Not without actual data from a LOT of MK-banned tourneys with the same players we have now playing. And you don't, so drop it.

I'm quoting this for you, since you seem to have forgotten.

I already said that we DO have data, a fact which you seem to have ignored. Thus, we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, even without these MK-banned tourneys that you claim we need.

 

[Spelt]

Anime fans are the worst people.

this. sooooo much this.

 

[ElDominio]

Anime fans are the worst people.

Don't fan the flames man... He'll get more angsty and strawman some more
This random fact is completely irrelevant, so jsut let it die

His argument is dead, he's just using troll behavior to time us out, like MK...

What I read some Cyanide:

This is where I post another facepalm picture.

So, his replies will constitute a bunch of 4chan images of facepalms, since explaining himself is too illogical.

 

[Delvro]

Anime fans are the worst people.

I can't say I disagree. When debating, I would expect everyone to have a minimal amount of courtesy and refrain from making demeaning remarks.

It's sad that some people feel the need to make apparent such uncouth feelings as condescension and disdain.

 

[adumbrodeus]

this. sooooo much this.

Hey? Why's everyone hating on the marth boards?!

 

[fkacyan]

Oh, so now you're backpedalling?

I'm quoting this for you, since you seem to have forgotten.

I already said that we DO have data, a fact which you seem to have ignored. Thus, we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, even without these MK-banned tourneys that you claim we need.

No, you don't. You have matchup data from MK being legal; thus, there is potential that every avenue in other matchups hasn't been explored yet (i.e. some stupid move abuse that changes a matchup). I'm not claiming they exist, but I'm not silly enough to claim that they don't. By the way, the idea of the temp-ban came from the good posters for pro-ban.

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of temp-banning, but I'll outline the basic objectives:
- Confirm that the metagame is stable and balanced post-ban
- Confirm a positive effect on tourney attendance
- Gather relevant data for the above two without permanently alienating anti-ban players; if the data points to MK being in the game as better, six months is not a particularly long period of time in the long term.

I never backpedaled, broski. Not once.

Aside: How could you not tell I was an anime nerd? Every single one of my avatars is an anime chick.

EDIT: You just said uncouth in a sentence.

...

Admittedly, I don't know how to react when that word is used.

 

[Spelt]

Oh i don't hate the marth boards ... but i do hate anime freaks.
especially naruto fans.

 

[Kaffei]

There's an actual Naruto cafe (wtf)

 

[Delvro]

I have absolutely no problem with a temporary ban.

I don't see a lot distinction between a ban and a temporary ban. I'm assuming a time period is determined before the ban occurs. However, no ban is irreversible.

It would be unreasonable to suggest that MK be banned permanently without possibility of reversing the decision should some unexpected development occur.

Nobody's fool enough to say definitively what will happen in an non-MK future. Regarding matchups not involving MK, however, I see no point in worrying about that, since they will shift and evolve in a roughly similar manner whether or not MK is in the game (although they are likely to evolve more quickly due to increased focus on non-MK matchups). If some (unexpected) development causes a new character to become dominant, then that would obviously be a good time to consider bringing MK back into the game.

 

[Lenus Altair]

No, you don't. You have matchup data from MK being legal; thus, there is potential that every avenue in other matchups hasn't been explored yet (i.e. some stupid move abuse that changes a matchup). I'm not claiming they exist, but I'm not silly enough to claim that they don't.

^^Very much this.

So many matchups are ignored in favor of discussing MK, and with his banning as new character push forward to fill in the power vacuum a more seriously look at those matchups will be necessary (particularly those who may end up jumping from mid tier... or lower???).

Also to anyone saying that hate anime, Id just like to say I think saying that is silly. Its almost like saying "I hate paintings" or much more similiarly "I hate Live action shows". Hating on a medium or a form of expression just doesnt make sense to me. Sure you may not like every painting you see, but Im sure anyone with working eyes would find at least one they liked. Same with TV shows. There are tons of anime across so many genres targeting so many audiences... its a matter of finding one you like...

...this coming from a guy who likes some anime, but things naruto and bleach are a waste of time.

 

[DMG]

just to clarify, I didn't make the planking info thread as pro ban material. I made it so that the community could see what goes on framewise during planking (and also to show that Pit and G&W among others have exploitable holes when doing it.)
its a knowledge is power thread not pro ban propaganda or pro ban ammo even if the community uses it as such.

 

[HeroMystic]

...this coming from a guy who likes some anime, but things naruto and bleach are a waste of time.

You, you, you... are absolutely correct.

On a serious note, where exactly is this discussion going now?

@DMG: I hope you didn't believe it wasn't going to be used as ammo right? XD

 

[MarKO X]

Fun fact: If you move your finger one key to the right when typing MK, you get NJ. THE INVENTOR OF THE QWERTY KEYBOARD IS CLEARLY CLAIRVOYANT.

,l

its definitely to the left. lol

people should try planking. and have people try to stop it. see what kind of results you get.

 

[fkacyan]

,l

its definitely to the left. lol

I MEANT LEFT.

;_;

I was thinking "MK is to the rght of NJ" as I typed.

 

[Gnes]

Oh i don't hate the marth boards ... but i do hate anime freaks.
especially naruto fans.

 

[Spelt]

I would SO watch the anime if he did stuff like that.

 

[MarKO X]

*spam pic*

reported for spam.
lol jk
don't you hate it when you get an infraction for something that's completely (ir)relevant to the topic at hand?