Official Metaknight Discussion

[GigaBowserXyZ]

MLG is NOT banning Metaknight

where did you here that?

 

[UltiMario]

That isn't even close to a valid argument.

Its as much of a valid arguement as pro-bans saying brawl will die out if MK isn't banned, BTW.

 

[Nanaki]

Its as much of a valid arguement as pro-bans saying brawl will die out if MK isn't banned, BTW.

I'd say yours an equally valid argument to 'I want MK banned because he beats my character specifically'.

The 'brawl will die if we keep him' argument is totally unrelated, and a legitimate concern, but holds absolutely no weight because there's zero proof to back it up.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't see why anyone would actually want MK banned.

 

[Masky]

where did you here that?

Common sense

 

[JRob]

Wait, when was it decided that ledge play is "too good"?

All of the data DMG rounded up only solidified by thoughts about Meta Knight and how his absurd qualities made HIS ledge play so good as to ruin an otherwise great game.

That said why do you guys consider ledge play so different from any other aspect of this game to warrant limiting IT, and presumptiously, not something like... platform usage?

I mean, what if MK had frame perfect AIR CAMPING on battlefield? Would you limit that? Or how about something as simple as frame perfect SPACING- you can literally not get to him if he spaces correctly, good reads or not? Would you limit that? Perfect... Juggling?- as in you can't touch the ground, but... the main move he uses to perform this won't kill you...

(Btw, lable all of these examples as "stalling", and I'll lable you an idiot.)

I guarantee you COULD limit all of those if you wanted to- with rules about as subjective as LGLs, (well, probably not if he had perfect spacing >.>) without resorting to banning the character outright.

Where do you draw the line? Or would you EVER draw a line, in the name of "banning a character is a last resort"?

 

[Black Mantis]

I don't see why anyone would actually want MK banned.

He has no bad match-ups.

 

[fkacyan]

He has no bad match-ups.

And?

That in and of itself is not grounds to ban a character, or many, many fighters would ban at least one or two characters.

 

[UltiMario]

He has no bad match-ups.

Yes, but a lot of his match-ups are dead even.

If you don't call 55:45 dead even you're stupid. Its not really a true advantage until 70:30, and MK as a lot more 55:45s and 60:40s than anything else, which puts him pretty much even only SLIGHTLY going towards him.

people treat 60:40 as unwinnable sheesh.

 

[salaboB]

Yes, but a lot of his match-ups are dead even.

If you don't call 55:45 dead even you're stupid. Its not really a true advantage until 70:30, and MK as a lot more 55:45s and 60:40s than anything else, which puts him pretty much even only SLIGHTLY going towards him.

people treat 60:40 as unwinnable sheesh.

This doesn't make sense.

55:45 is not dead even, that's 50:50. It doesn't matter if it's "unwinnable" or not, it's advantaged MK.

 

[Black Mantis]

And?

That in and of itself is not grounds to ban a character, or many, many fighters would ban at least one or two characters.

more tournament wins than most other characters in the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQZBcLb5Z8

he also makes many other characters unplayable

 

[UltiMario]

In every other competative scene a 55:45 match-up would be treated as "pretty much dead even", but here for some reason 55:45 is "The 55 always wins" here.

Not sure why.

 

[UltiMario]

more tournament wins than most other characters in the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQZBcLb5Z8

he also makes many other characters unplayable

BTW, M2K is much more skilled than Gnes, if the video didn't make it blatently obvious. Its not that its hes playing MK, its that hes better anyways.

DDD makes stages unplayable, and ICs makes some characters unplayable, so why are we not banning them? (instead of banning the stages, such as in DDD's case)

 

[Black Mantis]

BTW, M2K is much more skilled than Gnes)

You call skill running away? That's pretty much what he did. Of course M2K is good player no doubts about that.

 

[UltiMario]

I call skill ****** Gnes to death in the first seconds of the match.

 

[fkacyan]

more tournament wins than most other characters in the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQZBcLb5Z8

he also makes many other characters unplayable

MK only truly invalidates maybe one or two characters. The majority of the characters people complain are unviable as a result of MK would probably see little to no tier position changes as a result of him being banned.

 

[UltiMario]

Wrong, Marth, DDD, and I think like ROB would go up on the tier list a bit.

.....

Other than that I'm seeing nothing, though. Is that 3 worth it? Lolno.

 

[Black Mantis]

I call skill ****** Gnes to death in the first seconds of the match.

You know Gnes beat him in the first match right?

 

[fkacyan]

Wrong, Marth, DDD, and I think like ROB would go up on the tier list a bit.

.....

Other than that I'm seeing nothing, though. Is that 3 worth it? Lolno.

None of those characters would see amazingly dynamic changes in their tier positions. The changes would be minimal, except for ROB, who would probably see a decent change in his viability.

 

[DMG]

blah blah lets plank as mk everyone!

 

[UltiMario]

You know Gnes beat him in the first match right?

And?

Warning, the following paragraph is completely irrelivant to the MK discussion, so it is spoiler tag'd so nobody that doesn't have to read it will end up reading it.

Spoiler

Its a fact through all of time, that the winner in the long run is what matters. No matter what text you look through, no matter what historians you'd ask, no matter what it is, its the winner that counts.

Hence the famousness of ADHD winning Pound 4. The day Pound 4 ended, did anoyone care about anything else in the top slots? No, only that ADHD bested M2K.

Anyways.... wait a second is that DMG I see that just posted? Uh.... interesting response.

 

[Black Mantis]

Wrong, Marth, DDD, Olimar, Toon Link, Peach, Fox, Pit, Yoshi, Lucario and I think like ROB would go up on the tier list a bit.

.....

Other than that I'm seeing nothing, though. Is that 3 worth it? Lolno.

There I fixed it.

 

[Delvro]

The changes would be minimal

I keep hearing this and it's the silliest thing I've ever heard. The changes would be exactly 36% of weighted top placings, spread unevenly across the characters, all of them.

Why are you making a fuss about who becomes "viable" without Metaknight? Why does it matter so much to you?

 

[UltiMario]

Maybe I should've said that Marth, DDD, and ROB are the only chararacters thats scores will go up enough to change their tier positions from an MK ban.

 

[salaboB]

In every other competative scene a 55:45 match-up would be treated as "pretty much dead even", but here for some reason 55:45 is "The 55 always wins" here.

Not sure why.

I never said "always wins", I very specifically said "advantaged".

I'm not sure where you're getting "always wins".

It's like having a cork filled baseball bat allowed for one team. They'd still be beatable, but the other team would be at a disadvantage due to something beyond their playing ability -- and their only way to get even is to also get a cork filled bat themselves.

 

[Nanaki]

I would very much contest your 2nd spoiler point. I will do so with my own spoiler.

Spoiler

ADHD beating M2K wasn't the only big story out of Pound 4. 8 MK's in the top 10 was as big, if not bigger to most people. Not to take anything away from ADHD, it was an awesome win for him.

 

[UltiMario]

The "always wins" thing comes from the fact that too much of the board doesn't understand match-up ratios.

Spoiler

I didn't even notice 8 MKs were in the top 10 until it was brought up earlier in this thread, which was still a bit after Pound 4. I was like "wat ADHD won waow"

 

[Delvro]

Maybe I should've said that Marth, DDD, and ROB are the only chararacters thats scores will go up enough to change their tier positions from an MK ban.

Changing tier positions? Why are you wanting characters' tier positions to change with an MK ban? What would that accomplish? Why on earth is it necessary for some characters to go up in rank compared to others to justify an MK ban?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Wrong, Marth, DDD, Olimar, Toon Link, Peach, Fox, Pit, Yoshi, Lucario, Game & Watch and I think like ROB would go up on the tier list a bit.

.....

Other than that I'm seeing nothing, though. Is that 3 worth it? Lolno.

Fixed even moar.

 

[UltiMario]

Changing tier positions? Why are you wanting characters' tier positions to change with an MK ban? What would that accomplish? Why on earth is it necessary for some characters to go up in rank compared to others to justify an MK ban?

I'm anti-ban, BTW. I'm telling them that they're overestimating the results from an MK ban.

 

[salaboB]

The "always wins" thing comes from the fact that too much of the board doesn't understand match-up ratios.

I actually meant "Who is saying always wins?" Specifically:

"Which credible supporter of pro-ban is saying MK beats everyone?"

The only people I've seen that say that MK beats everyone are along the lines of "You can't ban MK everyone can beat him!" people (Just on the opposite side of the argument)

I'm anti-ban, BTW. I'm telling them that they're overestimating the results from an MK ban.

You're doing it wrong.

The main results aren't related to characters becoming more viable.

 

[Delvro]

I'm anti-ban, BTW. I'm telling them that they're overestimating the results from an MK ban.

You're missing the point. I realize you are anti-ban. I'm asking you why, if MK is gone, do you care so much about other characters shifting placements within each other... like you say Marth would go up more than other characters because MK effectively brings marth down.

I'm asking you.......... why this matters to you at all?

 

[UltiMario]

They say that banning MK will improve the competative scene and make so many characters so much more viable that MK banning is definately worth it. I'm counterargueing saying very little in general will change.

@salaboo: I'm saying this too much board in general thinks even 60:40 is a hard match-up, whilst really its only SLIGHTLY off-even.

Some are in the pro-bans as well, but not familiar supporters are anything, but I'm sure even some Anti-bans and many neutrals are also like this.

40:60 to many people here means "Good luck" where it actually means "slightly difficult"

 

[Delvro]

Of course more characters would get more viable. But more importantly than creating super new viable characters, it eliminates domination. Rather than having one blatantly obvious "best choice" and a couple of other characters that "sometimes do the trick if you're really really good", you have a handful of characters that all do fairly well and all have at least one slightly disadvantaged matchup that can be used to keep said character from dominating.

.....Unless you seriously believe that with MK gone.... another character will dominate 36% of weighted top placings, as MK does now?

Anyway, I remember a couple of posts from Crow that pretty much wrapped up this discussion and proved beyond a reasonable doubt (alpha = .05) that MK quite severely dominates the tournament scene. I doubt there is little of use that I can add to this.

 

[cutter]

Fixed even moar.

Haha, epic fix.

G&W is hopeless at beating MK. Even Zac told me on AIM that it's a "free win for MK".

 

[UltiMario]

I personally believe that Marth is going to take place of MK if he is banned.

MK is like the only reason Marth isn't the best character in the game, so a new threat that'll take up around a 1/3 of the metagame will awake if MK is banned. Marth won't dominate AS badly as MK, but he'll probably end up a large chunk higher than whoever is at #2 in an MK banned world.

 

[Delvro]

I personally believe that Marth is going to take place of MK if he is banned.

MK is like the only reason Marth isn't the best character in the game, so a new threat that'll take up around a 1/3 of the metagame will awake if MK is banned. Marth won't dominate AS badly as MK, but he'll probably end up a large chunk higher than whoever is at #2 in an MK banned world.

Even though the current #2, who has more than double the weighted top 8 tournament placings as marth, has an advantageous matchup against said marth?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I personally believe that Ganondorf is going to take place of MK if he is banned.

Just b/c I say it, doesn't make it true.
Marth doesn't do the best against Snake either and people will learn the Marth MU even more.

 

[Delta-cod]

There I fixed it.

Yoshi is a definite no. Sorry, but without MK, Marth would most likely be more common, and Marth is worse for Yoshi than MK is.

Sorry, that bothered me.

 

[JRob]

Sorry for the double post. :X