Official Metaknight Discussion

[UltiMario]

Its also really really hard to hit Jiggly in Melee while rising pound stalling, its possible, just extremely difficult. Does that make it stalling? Appearently so.

 

[etecoon]

Again, see above. He's literally unhittable if he performs a very specific action on the ledge. In response, you ban him from touching the ledge in any way? Inconsistent ruling at best.

1 ledge grab = DQ, LOL the future of barwl

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, it says he's unhittable.

I gotta agree on this one-you can't punish MK's planking.

However, a ledge grab rule is silly because it effects other chars (DDD vs. Marth matchup for example) and doesn't stop MK the way it should. An MK-specific, very low LGL is still saying "MK is broken but we want to use him" and therefore no better than any of my hypothetical "rules".

 

[Masky]

Snake infinite C4 teching under the stage, Sonic infinite neutral B-ing under the stage, and Jigglypuff infinte rising pound under the stage are also widely considered stalling, even though you could hit them but it would be really difficult/risky.

 

[etecoon]

hitting snake while he's C4 teching the stage isn't at all risky and is entirely advantageous in almost all circumstances, snake can't stall lmao

 

[fkacyan]

Because it doesn't say he's unhittable; it says it's really, really hard.

By really, really, hard, you mean you have frames at far less than human reaction speed if you're already in a disadvantageous position or he messes up.

In other words, so close to impossible it might as be, or in math terms, the odds of successfully punishing MK for planking are so close to 0 (i.e. .0000001%) that for all intents and purposes it is 0%.

At this point, it almost seems to me you want to define planking as perfectly legal simply to have ammunition to ban him, which is so dishonest that I'd like to believe this isn't what you're doing.

EDIT: @ Budget Player: Figuring out a specific rule to fix abuse of a mechanic by a character, while difficult, isn't impossible; and while it might take time, effort, and revision, it is infinitely more attractive than potentially ruining a game.

 

[Nanaki]

Snake infinite C4 teching under the stage, Sonic infinite neutral B-ing under the stage, and Jigglypuff infinte rising pound under the stage are also widely considered stalling, even though you could hit them but it would be really difficult/risky.

I would have zero fear of going after any of those with Meta Knight.

They're also not considered stalling by the SBR ruleset definition.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

By really, really, hard, you mean you have frames at far less than human reaction speed if you're already in a disadvantageous position or he messes up.

In other words, so close to impossible it might as be, or in math terms, the odds of successfully punishing MK for planking are so close to 0 (i.e. .0000001%) that for all intents and purposes it is 0%.

At this point, it almost seems to me you want to define planking as perfectly legal simply to have ammunition to ban him, which is so dishonest that I'd like to believe this isn't what you're doing.

EDIT: @ Budget Player: Figuring out a specific rule to fix abuse of a mechanic by a character, while difficult, isn't impossible; and while it might take time, effort, and revision, it is infinitely more attractive than potentially ruining a game.

O.o

Why does giving MK a stock handicap or not letting him counterpick/ban ruin the game?

 

[fkacyan]

O.o

Why does giving MK a stock handicap or not letting him counterpick/ban ruin the game?

I was talking about banning him.

Like I said, specific rules can be debated and agreed upon in time; I'm saying that banning planking is a more attractive option than banning MK overall, given that a temp ban doesn't show that the game is even worse off without him.

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA
i counted 69 ledge grabs by amsah. I might be wrong, but not by more than 5 more or 5 less. still, 69+5 > 69-5 > 50.

should Jman have paused the game and been like, "yo, amsah is stalling," or is that legal?

if it's stalling, what makes it stalling?
it it's legal, why is this suddenly illegal in Brawl?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

metanight is brooken, he even got 1st at the last nationa...no wait....well he got 1st at the national before tha...no wait...WELL HE STILL WINS LOCALS

ban plz

lol, <3 <3 <3

 

[fkacyan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA
i counted 69 ledge grabs by amsah. I might be wrong, but not by more than 5 more or 5 less. still, 69+5 > 69-5 > 50.

should Jman have paused the game and been like, "yo, amsah is stalling," or is that legal?

if it's stalling, what makes it stalling?
it it's legal, why is this suddenly illegal in Brawl?

Why are we still trying to compare Brawl to Melee? And Shiek's not-frame-perfect edge stall to MK's nigh-frame perfect ledge stall?
Why are you acting like I said a ledge grab limit is the only option to ban planking?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I was talking about banning him.

Like I said, specific rules can be debated and agreed upon in time; I'm saying that banning planking is a more attractive option than banning MK overall, given that a temp ban doesn't show that the game is even worse off without him.

Well then, enforce my stage rule and we won't have this discussion. MK is still probably top 5 and still crazy good, but not quite as ******** because he doesn't automatically win on his counterpick and people can choose whatever they want to try to give him a disadvantage. After all, one major complaint is him breaking the CP system; let's remove it for him! He breaks a basic part of the game; we remove it for him and only him.

 

[jmanxiv]

So we created the lgl just for mk, cause the only other character that could be a problem would be gnw.

 

[UltiMario]

Even if MK was banned I would still want LGLs.

Because planking is annoying even if your character is ****ty at it.

 

[MarKO X]

Why are we still trying to compare Brawl to Melee? And Shiek's not-frame-perfect edge stall to MK's nigh-frame perfect ledge stall?

Because clearly, tons of rules in Brawl are, one way or another, based on... you guessed it, Melee.
Because Shiek's not-frame-perfect edge stall after the lead from the SD was the reason amsah won, not to say that he couldn't have won without it, but he did.

Why are you acting like I said a ledge grab limit is the only option to ban planking?

If you ban planking without a ledge grab rule, then the only other way I would see you doing that atm is solely on judgment. If you have another method, by all means, mention it.

now, should Jman have paused the game and been like, "yo, amsah is stalling," or is that legal?

 

[fkacyan]

@ Nanaki: How do you plan on punishing, say, ICs desync'd Blizzard / Iceblock alternate without taking % or a grab? How do you plan on punishing Falco's lagless landing lasers, from which you he can safely on shield jab or potentially grab for a CG?

Don't bother playing what-if games, because neither person can ever win the argument, especially when you take into account human error. The fact of the matter is that it is far more likely that the fire-er of the projectiles will end of with the advantage because he is not approaching, which is a terrible option in this game in general, and because an error in firing a projectile just means that that's one less thing for MK to dodge, and doesn't instantly result in a punish, wheras MK messing up results in him losing the % lead.

 

[rvkevin]

If you ban planking without a ledge grab rule, then the only other way I would see you doing that atm is solely on judgment. If you have another method, by all means, mention it.

What ever happened to the grab the edge 5 times (With one for leeway so 6 grabs in the row) without landing on stage rule?

 

[fkacyan]

Because clearly, tons of rules in Brawl are, one way or another, based on... you guessed it, Melee.
Because Shiek's not-frame-perfect edge stall after the lead from the SD was the reason amsah won, not to say that he couldn't have won without it, but he did.


If you ban planking without a ledge grab rule, then the only other way I would see you doing that atm is solely on judgment. If you have another method, by all means, mention it.

now, should Jman have paused the game and been like, "yo, amsah is stalling," or is that legal?

Planking is stalling under the definition that the game is unplayable while MK does so because he is unhittable. I'm not going to bother commenting on Melee, because that is completely unrelated to the discussion entirely.

Also, to present a ridiculous strawman to your first sentence, plenty of laws are based on religious texts, but lawmakers don't look to the Bible when they need to reference a law.

 

[sandwhale]

Well then, enforce my stage rule and we won't have this discussion. MK is still probably top 5 and still crazy good, but not quite as ******** because he doesn't automatically win on his counterpick and people can choose whatever they want to try to give him a disadvantage. After all, one major complaint is him breaking the CP system; let's remove it for him! He breaks a basic part of the game; we remove it for him and only him.

why make such complicated rules? If MK hogs the edge too much put a ledge grab limit, its as simple as that.

 

[UltiMario]

Well then, enforce my stage rule and we won't have this discussion. MK is still probably top 5 and still crazy good, but not quite as ******** because he doesn't automatically win on his counterpick and people can choose whatever they want to try to give him a disadvantage. After all, one major complaint is him breaking the CP system; let's remove it for him! He breaks a basic part of the game; we remove it for him and only him.

I cannot describe in words the stupidity of this statement.
I hope you're trying to be ironic, because if you are, I'm not seeing it.

If you're not trolling and being serious, then if you pro-banners pick on us for our ideas to limit planking/ban scrooging/etc, then man, you haven't even realy thought about your own ideas.

 

[Ray Robo]

MK does place well in tournaments and most good MK's place high but i think other characters have his potential like diddy kong, snake, and falco. It's just he is slightly overpowered in my opinion so he places high and stuff. If only there would be Global Rules for him and i hope Oveswarm's global rules develop into the MLG.

 

[sandwhale]

Planking is stalling under the definition that the game is unplayable while MK does so because he is unhittable. I'm not going to bother commenting on Melee, because that is completely unrelated to the discussion entirely.

Also, to present a ridiculous strawman to your first sentence, plenty of laws are based on religious texts, but lawmakers don't look to the Bible when they need to reference a law.

don't be silly, the correlation between brawl and melee is obvious and 90% of brawl rules come from melee.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Even if MK was banned I would still want LGLs.

Because planking is annoying even if your character is ****ty at it.

DDD's CG annoys me, get rid of it.

why make such complicated rules? If MK hogs the edge too much put a ledge grab limit, its as simple as that.

It's not complicated. It's less subjective and more balancing. All the LGL does is deal with this one absolutely broken aspect of MK when there's clearly more to him-remember how we keep saying "MK BREAKS THE COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, MK IS OVERPOWERED, MK DOES NOT BELONG DUE TO HIS OVERPOWEREDNESS"? Well this fixes both issues without a need for an "arbitrary number" rule.

I cannot describe in words the stupidity of this statement.
I hope you're trying to be ironic, because if you are, I'm not seeing it.

If you're not trolling and being serious, then if you pro-banners pick on us for our ideas to limit planking/ban scrooging/etc, then man, you haven't even realy thought about your own ideas.

I was trolling to start, but now this actually seems like a good idea. About as good as an MK-specific LGL/scrooging ban. Just think about it-no subjectivity, no stupid numbers, and no more arguing! Just CP MK to a world with no ledges like Mario Circuit, Onett, Flat Zone 2, etc.!

 

[Nanaki]

Even if MK was banned I would still want LGLs.

Because planking is annoying even if your character is ****ty at it.

So you're anti-ban, but you want to ban something else that clearly isn't broken just because it's annoying to you?

@ Nanaki: How do you plan on punishing, say, ICs desync'd Blizzard / Iceblock alternate without taking % or a grab? How do you plan on punishing Falco's lagless landing lasers, from which you he can safely on shield jab or potentially grab for a CG?

Don't bother playing what-if games, because neither person can ever win the argument, especially when you take into account human error. The fact of the matter is that it is far more likely that the fire-er of the projectiles will end of with the advantage because he is not approaching, which is a terrible option in this game in general, and because an error in firing a projectile just means that that's one less thing for MK to dodge, and doesn't instantly result in a punish, wheras MK messing up results in him losing the % lead.

Neither of those options are particularly difficult to punish, especially IC's. Once you've shield-walked close enough, Falco's lasers aren't a safe option anymore. He can still side-B away, but then you're into a prediction game.

Either way, like you said I don't want to get into a 'Let's theorycraft what the perfect opponent would do!' type argument here. Yes, characters with (good) projectiles can get the lead on MK and then he can't plank. However, if he gets a gimp/stock lead, even if they were winning in percent, he can then go plank away the match. Regardless, I don't think you can legitimately argue that MK being able to win just by getting the lead is in any way not truly broken and banworthy.

 

[fkacyan]

Either way, like you said I don't want to get into a 'Let's theorycraft what the perfect opponent would do!' type argument here. Yes, characters with (good) projectiles can get the lead on MK and then he can't plank. However, if he gets a gimp/stock lead, even if they were winning in percent, he can then go plank away the match. Regardless, I don't think you can legitimately argue that MK being able to win just by getting the lead is in any way not truly broken and banworthy.

This I concede, but then I also believe that his method of victory in this case falls under the SBR definition of stalling, similarly to his IDC, and this is bannable, though by what mechanism is open for more discussion.

 

[sandwhale]

It's not complicated. It's less subjective and more balancing. All the LGL does is deal with this one absolutely broken aspect of MK when there's clearly more to him-remember how we keep saying "MK BREAKS THE COUNTERPICK SYSTEM, MK IS OVERPOWERED, MK DOES NOT BELONG DUE TO HIS OVERPOWEREDNESS"? Well this fixes both issues without a need for an "arbitrary number" rule.

Thing is, only MK's planking has been proven to be broken.

 

[fkacyan]

don't be silly, the correlation between brawl and melee is obvious and 90% of brawl rules come from melee.

That does not mean that Brawl's rules have to be a carbon copy of Melee's and vice versa. The original reference is there, yes, but past that the other game can be ignored as far as rules are concerned.

 

[Nanaki]

This I concede, but then I also believe that his method of victory in this case falls under the SBR definition of stalling, similarly to his IDC, and this is bannable, though by what mechanism is open for more discussion.

I (and I would certainly hope pro-ban in general) am completely open to suggestions to remove MK's planking in a fair manner since it is apparently unbeatable if performed correctly. I don't really see how you can do so without completely altering some form of his game that isn't broken, though (playing from the ledge without performing his plank perfectly).

However, just because I don't see the solution doesn't mean it's not there.

Edit: I agree also with you on the Brawl/Melee issue. We should leave Melee out of this.

 

[MarKO X]

Planking is stalling under the definition that the game is unplayable while MK does so because he is unhittable. I'm not going to bother commenting on Melee, because that is completely unrelated to the discussion entirely.

Also, to present a ridiculous strawman to your first sentence, plenty of laws are based on religious texts, but lawmakers don't look to the Bible when they need to reference a law.

How long does MK have to unhittably plank before it becomes stalling?

Abortion and gay marriage.

 

[sandwhale]

That does not mean that Brawl's rules have to be a carbon copy of Melee's and vice versa. The original reference is there, yes, but past that the other game can be ignored as far as rules are concerned.

you don't copy paste them nor do you ignore them, you use them as a referencial point and analyse how they apply in Brawl.

 

[ElDominio]

This I concede, but then I also believe that his method of victory in this case falls under the SBR definition of stalling, similarly to his IDC, and this is bannable, though by what mechanism is open for more discussion.

The main problem is that planking isn't quite as recognizable as the IDC. What some people would call "planking/stalling" would be "camping" in the eyes of different people.

When someone "sees" the IDC, it's a "Where the F is MK????" instead of a "hmmmm well he IS on the ledge but the other guy COULD hit him somehow", which just keeps repeating itself for about 150 times until the match is over.

 

[TP]

Time for the super ultra strict TP anti-stalling rule:

If it is clear that you are playing with running out the clock as your primary form of victory, GTFO.

Problem solved forever.

 

[fkacyan]

Time for the super ultra strict TP anti-stalling rule:

If it is clear that you are playing with running out the clock as your primary form of victory, GTFO.

Problem solved forever.

Running out the clock in and of itself is fine. Doing so without being able to be hit is the issue here.

 

[MarKO X]

Running out the clock in and of itself is fine. Doing so without being able to be hit is the issue here.

How long does MK have to unhittably plank before it becomes stalling?

 

[Judo777]

Time for the super ultra strict TP anti-stalling rule:

If it is clear that you are playing with running out the clock as your primary form of victory, GTFO.

Problem solved forever.

Haha ok im gonna plank and then say "im not trying to run the clock out but i am waiting for the moment when i am SURE that my approach is 100% safe."

 

[sunshade]

How long does MK have to unhittably plank before it becomes stalling?

Lets push it another step forward and ask how many frames must the MK be vulnerable for it not to be stalling. If a MK is planking imperfectly and allows for openings to hit him but the openings are very difficult to punish is it still stalling? Does MK need to be capable of being hit for 5 frames and than we call it even? What if he is planking imperfectly for the majority of the match and than for 15-20 seconds planks perfectly?

We banned MK's IDC because it is very clear when he is doing it however with planking it is almost impossible to tell when the game is being made unplayable or simply being incredibly campy/degenerate.

 

[fkacyan]

How long does MK have to unhittably plank before it becomes stalling?

How many times do I have to say that an objective criteria is not always the only answer to a problem?

Anyways, were I to give you a time, you would just say "Remove that from the clock then and just don't let MK plank altogether" or "but then they'd plank for 59 seconds and get off on the 60th!" It's ground that's already been covered before, and I'm not much for that particular circular argument right now.

 

[ElDominio]

How many times do I have to say that an objective criteria is not always the only answer to a problem?

Anyways, were I to give you a time, you would just say "Remove that from the clock then and just don't let MK plank altogether" or "but then they'd plank for 59 seconds and get off on the 60th!" It's ground that's already been covered before, and I'm not much for that particular circular argument right now.

Stop pushing F5 (I'm doing it too lol), and please counter this statement:

We banned MK's IDC because it is very clear when he is doing it however with planking it is almost impossible to tell when the game is being made unplayable or simply being incredibly campy/degenerate.

 

[fkacyan]

Stop pushing F5 (I'm doing it too lol), and please counter this statement:

How many times do I have to say that an objective criteria is not always the only answer to a problem?

Already did.