Official Metaknight Discussion

[Turbo Ether]

This is true but playing like that (planking) might ruin the game's reputation and might get it kicked off the circuit.

Rightfully so.

 

[jmanxiv]

Dis thread should be renamed the proban metaknight discussion cause anti ban has been ***** for the past 80 pages. It'll be fun to see the outcome of all this with or without mk.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Dis thread should be renamed the proban metaknight discussion cause anti ban has been ***** for the past 80 pages. It'll be fun to see the outcome of all this with or without mk.

The issue is, Anti-ban has lost the debate by anyone's belief. It's just that they don't care, and if there's enough of them who refuse to go pro-ban, they can force the BBR's hand. Which is terrible, because MK is... well, let's look at it this way-is there ANY WAY any more to say "Metaknight is not broken"?

 

[TeeVee]

metanight is brooken, he even got 1st at the last nationa...no wait....well he got 1st at the national before tha...no wait...WELL HE STILL WINS LOCALS

ban plz

 

[Black Mantis]

The issue is, Anti-ban has lost the debate by anyone's belief. It's just that they don't care, and if there's enough of them who refuse to go pro-ban, they can force the BBR's hand. Which is terrible, because MK is... well, let's look at it this way-is there ANY WAY any more to say "Metaknight is not broken"?

Then what's the issue really about banning him? Its already been proven that he has no bad match-ups and can plank his way to success. Do we want MLG to regret their decision?

 

[fkacyan]

The issue is, Anti-ban has lost the debate by anyone's belief. It's just that they don't care, and if there's enough of them who refuse to go pro-ban, they can force the BBR's hand. Which is terrible, because MK is... well, let's look at it this way-is there ANY WAY any more to say "Metaknight is not broken"?

The issue is that all pro-ban has proven is that MK is extremely dominant and that inquiries should be made as to whether a non-MK environment would be better for Brawl, not that the game would, guaranteed, be a better game without him.

Also, MK isn't broken. A new player cannot pick up MK and win. This is not what goes down. Broken typically entails something that is so easy and skill-less that anybody off the street can do it and win, like stacking siege tanks in one spot in early SC1 builds or Holy/Unholy in WoW's first WotLK arena season., which was literally just the Death Knight blowing all his cooldowns to burst down a target while being essentially invulnerable the entire time.

If MK was actually broken, there would be no debate. The debate centralizes over whether or not his level of dominance is acceptable, not if he is a broken character.

 

[sandwhale]

I'll add to that that brokeness should also be a matter of the character being unbeatable at top level play which doesn't happen to be the case for MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The issue is that all pro-ban has proven is that MK is extremely dominant and that inquiries should be made as to whether a non-MK environment would be better for Brawl, not that the game would, guaranteed, be a better game without him.

Also, MK isn't broken. A new player cannot pick up MK and win. This is not what goes down. Broken typically entails something that is so easy and skill-less that anybody off the street can do it and win, like stacking siege tanks in one spot in early SC1 builds or Holy/Unholy in WoW's first WotLK arena season., which was literally just the Death Knight blowing all his cooldowns to burst down a target while being essentially invulnerable the entire time.

If MK was actually broken, there would be no debate. The debate centralizes over whether or not his level of dominance is acceptable, not if he is a broken character.

Actually, no, not any more. DMG proved that Metaknight is very literally broken, on terms with Akuma in SF2T. How do you want to refute the point with the frame data staring you in the face?

metanight is brooken, he even got 1st at the last nationa...no wait....well he got 1st at the national before tha...no wait...WELL HE STILL WINS LOCALS

ban plz

Doesn't matter. ADHD and Ally are simply WAY better than M2K. Also, M2K sucks at the Diddy matchup. Remember, he was brought down by ADHD twice. The best diddy. And M2K sucks against Diddy. ADHD knows the MK matchup back to front. Yeah, totally a situation that happens all the time, that a diddy beats an MK at the top of the metagame. It's these players. Just Ally and ADHD (or, to an extent, reference Flayl's list).

Also, this is while anti-competitive, MK-limiting rules were in place. MK is obviously and provably broken without a ledge grab limit (and by broken, I mean completely and utterly unbeatable by the ENTIRE CAST OTHER THAN METAKNIGHT)

Before anyone mentions the LGL, tell me why the LGL is more valid than any of these "limitations":
-MK gets no counterpicks or stage bans; while facing against MK, the opponent can choose any stage including banned stages
-MK gets a stock handicap
-MK becomes disqualified if he uses Tornado
-MK becomes disqualified if he grabs the ledge

Why is it more legit? Hell, any of those restrictions would be enough to stop this discussion PERMANENTLY; do you think MK would still be a mile above everyone else if Fox/Falco could CP him to Temple, Snake could CP him to Onett, Mario Curcuit, SMI, or Green Greens, ICs could CP him to Eldin, et cetera. Would MK still be a mile above everyone else if he started with a stock less? Would he be god tier if he couldn't grab the ledge or use his tornado?

(Yes, I'm aware that these particular rules are a little bit ludicrous. However, if we're willing to implement a ledge grab limit to keep MK from breaking the game by abusing a simple mechanic, why not something like this?)

 

[Nanaki]

(Yes, I'm aware that these particular rules are a little bit ludicrous. However, if we're willing to implement a ledge grab limit to keep MK from breaking the game by abusing a simple mechanic, why not something like this?)

Because grabbing the ledge for 8 minutes is annoying!

[/sarcasm]

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'll add to that that brokeness should also be a matter of the character being unbeatable at top level play which doesn't happen to be the case for MK.

Ledge grab limits johns. An MK who actually has all of his options at his disposal (sans IDC; we'll give you that one for it being a glitch) is not beatable; we put limiting rules to make him allowed. It's like saying Akuma can't use air fireball.

 

[jmanxiv]

That thing about picking up mk and wining is true. Last night I picked up mk and I spam nados like crazy online and shuttle loop then I camp with dair. I am so pro XD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That thing about picking up mk and wining is true. Last night I picked up mk and I spam nados like crazy online and shuttle loop then I camp with dair. I am so pro XD

Sadly, picking the char up and beating random scrubs does not qualify him as broken. If it did, we would've banned Ike on release.

 

[fkacyan]

ITT: Planking used to define a character as broken when MK doesn't have to ever be given the opportunity to plank.

Try harder, broski.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ITT: Planking used to define a character as broken when MK doesn't have to ever be given the opportunity to plank.

Try harder, broski.

Hello? I just showed you why the anti-planking rules are ********. Why is the anti-planking rule better than any of the rules I thought up?

 

[fkacyan]

Hello? I just showed you why the anti-planking rules are ********. Why is the anti-planking rule better than any of the rules I thought up?

You think I was talking about anti-planking rules. Quaint.

Imagine that planking is legal and there are zero anti-stalling rules. What must be true for MK planking to guarantee him a victory?

Akuma's bull**** isn't situational; MK's is highly situational. Think about it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Thio's right, Meta Knight needs a ledge.
Oh...

 

[fkacyan]

Thio's right, Meta Knight needs a ledge.
Oh...

Har har.

Think harder. Pro-ban can't be this stupid when OS isn't holding their hands.

 

[Nanaki]

You think I was talking about anti-planking rules. Quaint.

Imagine that planking is legal and there are zero anti-stalling rules. What must be true for MK planking to guarantee him a victory?

Akuma's bull**** isn't situational; MK's is highly situational. Think about it.

If he does it right, he needs a % lead. That's all.

If you get the lead on him, you have a chance of winning. If he gets the lead on you, unless he screws up, he's guaranteed to win.

...that sounds broken to me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You think I was talking about anti-planking rules. Quaint.

Imagine that planking is legal and there are zero anti-stalling rules. What must be true for MK planking to guarantee him a victory?

Akuma's bull**** isn't situational; MK's is highly situational. Think about it.

Oh, I see. A technique that breaks the game is highly situational when you need to get the lead first as a char with one of the best offensive games in the game. Aaaaaaand... Um... there are some banned stages where you can't do it?

So in that case, unban IDC.

 

[Overswarm]

Out of curiosity:


Let's imagine Zeus came down and said "YALL SILLY MILKSOPS" and demanded MK stay in the game, but we HAD to do something about that boring ledge grab stuff.


What do you do to prevent ledge grabs without a judge ruling that would be effective, but never tilt the flow of the match away from MK simply because "we said so"?

 

[TeeVee]

Doesn't matter. ADHD and Ally are simply WAY better than M2K.

stopped reading there

 

[sandwhale]

stopped reading there

thisX10000000

 

[MarKO X]

Thiocyanide makes me lol.
Answer this: how is MK's planking (without the LGL) highly situational?
Also, how is the LGL legit in the first place?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Out of curiosity:


Let's imagine Zeus came down and said "YALL SILLY MILKSOPS" and demanded MK stay in the game, but we HAD to do something about that boring ledge grab stuff.


What do you do to prevent ledge grabs without a judge ruling that would be effective, but never tilt the flow of the match away from MK simply because "we said so"?

no Zeus would simply steal MKs thunder then go

pika would then walk up, give Zeus the $$$ and

Zeus

 

[fkacyan]

If he does it right, he needs a % lead. That's all.

If you get the lead on him, you have a chance of winning. If he gets the lead on you, unless he screws up, he's guaranteed to win.

...that sounds broken to me.

Except that we have rules about excessive stalling that don't specifically target planking, which means that MK can't stall for 7 minutes if you have the brains to have somebody call the TO over and have the player DQ'd.

Ignoring that, there is a specific trait that several characters have that make gaining the % lead much harder for MK. Not all characters with the trait are strong enough with it that it matters in the matchup at all, but there are several high tier characters who, in theory, can outcamp and beat MK given they are on a neutral stage.

EDIT: There are plenty of characters who can abuse the ledge to stay almost untouchable except in specific situations. None of them are as frame-perfect as MK's, but several of them are still annoying to punish (Marth, for example) and some of them are nearly impossible because of the mechanics of the move used to stall (If you try to get ZSS out of her down-B ledgestall, for example, she just jumps off of you and goes all the way to the middle of the stage).

People are going to be really gay on the ledge regardless of whether or not they're MK.

 

[etecoon]

"WAY" is wrong, but ally is the best player in the world and M2K is bad at the diddy matchup, it makes sense that meta knight hasn't been winning nationals in spite of being significantly better than snake/diddy.

 

[Espy Rose]

Har har.

Think harder. Pro-ban can't be this stupid when OS isn't holding their hands.

Oh no, I'm just teasing because of your ridiculous statement in that Meta Knight's "bull****" is highly situational.

 

[Overswarm]

Har har.

Think harder. Pro-ban can't be this stupid when OS isn't holding their hands.

Glad to see you think so highly of me.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh no, I'm just teasing because of your ridiculous statement in that Meta Knight's "bull****" is highly situational.

But it is. If MK isn't leading in percents or stocks, he is unable to plank. Considering that there are characters who can gain the advantage over him in %s faster at the beginning of a match, it makes it situational, as opposed to a universally broken technique that is literally impossible to counter from the second the match begins.

 

[Nanaki]

Except that we have rules about excessive stalling that don't specifically target planking, which means that MK can't stall for 7 minutes if you have the brains to have somebody call the TO over and have the player DQ'd.

The rules on stalling (SBR rules):

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

MK's just running away, and doing a **** good job of reaching a better position and staying there. A TO would be out of line to DQ the player under the current ruleset. But ignoring that, since you did too:

Ignoring that, there is a specific trait that several characters have that make gaining the % lead much harder for MK. Not all characters with the trait are strong enough with it that it matters in the matchup at all, but there are several high tier characters who, in theory, can outcamp and beat MK given they are on a neutral stage.

Which characters would those be?

Either way, they have to outplay MK the entire match. If he gets the lead at any point, the match is pretty much over. I have a hard time believing that's not broken.

It'd be like playing a basketball game where if, at any point, the other team gets the lead, you lose. On top of that, the team that can call the game at any point happens to be the best team in the league.

 

[Black Mantis]

Doesn't matter. ADHD and Ally are simply WAY better than M2K.

I feel like making this a sig.

 

[fkacyan]

MK's just running away, and doing a **** good job of reaching a better position and staying there. A TO would be out of line to DQ the player under the current ruleset. But ignoring that, since you did too:

If MK is literally untouchable, then the game is unplayable, clearly. Thus, stalling! Man, that was hard.

Which characters would those be?

Think of a character trait that MK doesn't have that others do. It's pretty much the only thing he doesn't have aside from weight, actually.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thio, I'm sorry, but your opponent getting a lead = an automatic loss is broken, even if the character is jiggs. Considering he's the universally recognized best character in the game...


Granted, it's not quite automatic, but it's d*mn close.



Then we have the next problem... how do we ban it discretely and enforcably. I'm looking for ways, but my real concern is that it will be literally impossible.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd like to go ahead and throw this in: Nanaki is right about the stalling definition.

I wrote it, it's not changing, if you found some loophole in it I would just change it to fix that loophole.

 

[UltiMario]

Ummmm...... WHAT?! Stalling is banned. Planking is currently a problem we are dealing with, and since it can't be discretely banned. It will never be legal. And since Scrooging is merely a derivative of planking, it won't be either.

Double what?

I was saying that Planking and Scrooging are stall tactics as much as the Rising Pound is in Melee or infinate CGs now, so, why do people want to ban Meta Knight over banning those tactics, when we've always banned the stall tactics before, rather than the character?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I feel like making this a sig.

why post about it? make it so since it is a pretty uneducated statement

 

[fkacyan]

I'd like to go ahead and throw this in: Nanaki is right about the stalling definition.

I wrote it, it's not changing, if you found some loophole in it I would just change it to fix that loophole.

I'm not using a loophole. If, as the frame data says, MK is literally unhittable, then that makes the game unplayable and thus by your definition is stalling. Where is my statement wrong?

 

[Overswarm]

I'm not using a loophole. If, as the frame data says, MK is literally unhittable, then that makes the game unplayable and thus by your definition is stalling. Where is my statement wrong?

Because it doesn't say he's unhittable; it says it's really, really hard.

 

[Masky]

Because it doesn't say he's unhittable; it says it's really, really hard.

No, it says he's unhittable.

 

[Nanaki]

If MK is literally untouchable, then the game is unplayable, clearly. Thus, stalling! Man, that was hard.

Except he's only literally untouchable if he does 1 very specific action on the ledge. It's possible that you could maybe hit him otherwise (if he does something else, which really ruins the whole planking=stalling argument), but you're putting yourself at a massive risk while he's relatively safe. SL stage-spike ftw.

Think of a character trait that MK doesn't have that others do. It's pretty much the only thing he doesn't have aside from weight, actually.

yay, projectiles. Powershield and punish. Get % lead. Win.

Thio, I'm sorry, but your opponent getting a lead = an automatic loss is broken, even if the character is jiggs. Considering he's the universally recognized best character in the game...


Granted, it's not quite automatic, but it's d*mn close.



Then we have the next problem... how do we ban it discretely and enforcably. I'm looking for ways, but my real concern is that it will be literally impossible.

I hope you find a way, but I'm having my doubts too.

I'd like to go ahead and throw this in: Nanaki is right about the stalling definition.

I wrote it, it's not changing, if you found some loophole in it I would just change it to fix that loophole.

Yay, 2 purple posts agreeing with me in a row!

I'm not using a loophole. If, as the frame data says, MK is literally unhittable, then that makes the game unplayable and thus by your definition is stalling. Where is my statement wrong?

Again, see above. He's literally unhittable if he performs a very specific action on the ledge. In response, you ban him from touching the ledge in any way? Inconsistent ruling at best.