Official Melee PAL Tier List v2.0 (March 2010)

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#81
instead of using difference of average placing, you should just divide the tiers like this :D

broken tier: Fox, Jigglypuff, Sheik, Falco, Marth, Peach
sometimes they win tier: Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Samus
not quite up to par tier: Ganondorf, Doctor Mario, Mario, Luigi
they look cool but kinda suck tier: Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Link, Yoshi, Young Link, Roy
sucky tier: Zelda, Mr. Game & Watch, Mewtwo, Bowser, Ness, Kirby, Pichu
 

Dr_Strangelove

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#82
Aniolas and Armada: can you explain why you placed ice climbers so high?
I must be missing something, because I really don't think they're the third best character.

I'm kinda half-expecting you to bust them out as your surprise secondaries at Apex now. >.>
 

Hack

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#83
Strangelove (speaking on behalf of the UGS-brothers, seeing as they probably won't visit this thread too often): Basically, their choice is made upon the assumption that if ICs get a grab in, you're done for, regardless of character and (to some extent) current damage percentage. This would mean, in theory, that they only need four grabs to win a match (plus some additional start-damage to make escaping the wobbling impossible). They have a fairly decent grab game, and some pretty crazy stuff can be done by desyncing properly. With all these factors taken into account, they find that the IC metagame, if developed to the same extent as that of the other top characters, would make them the third best character in the game, with Puff and Fox above.

I personally don't agree, since it's way too easy to split the two climbers and gimp Nana at the current professional level, but ICs could at least be put above CF. If based off tournament results, however, the tier list doesn't justify such a placing, but the list should also consider the fact that most people find ICs boring, and that CF, for instance, is much less complex and more fun to pick up - thus allowing his metagame to grow accordingly in comparison.

Phew, such a rant... =S
 

Dr_Strangelove

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#84
Strangelove (speaking on behalf of the UGS-brothers, seeing as they probably won't visit this thread too often): Basically, their choice is made upon the assumption that if ICs get a grab in, you're done for, regardless of character and (to some extent) current damage percentage. This would mean, in theory, that they only need four grabs to win a match (plus some additional start-damage to make escaping the wobbling impossible). They have a fairly decent grab game, and some pretty crazy stuff can be done by desyncing properly. With all these factors taken into account, they find that the IC metagame, if developed to the same extent as that of the other top characters, would make them the third best character in the game, with Puff and Fox above.

I personally don't agree, since it's way too easy to split the two climbers and gimp Nana at the current professional level, but ICs could at least be put above CF. If based off tournament results, however, the tier list doesn't justify such a placing, but the list should also consider the fact that most people find ICs boring, and that CF, for instance, is much less complex and more fun to pick up - thus allowing his metagame to grow accordingly in comparison.

Phew, such a rant... =S
Isn't wobbling banned anyway? This is why I was curious, I assumed that they took this into account, and they found something out that nobody else knew.
 

Navn

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#85
Iirc, IC's can do infinites (or something that's close enough) > fsmash regardless of wobbling being banned or not.
 

Infernum

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#87
Iirc, IC's can do infinites (or something that's close enough) > fsmash regardless of wobbling being banned or not.
You have to be close to the edge of the stage for this. So it can't be this. And yeah, wobbling is banned, so I don't get why they put them 3rd.

As long as Sheik is higher than Puff, this list is irrelevant.
 
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#88
The Melee player I used to train with was a Doc main, so I know the character quite a lot. You are arguing that Doc has got better Fair, pills and a better Nair.. well, all of those require Doc to be in the air to be used and in my experience staying in the air as Doc = death. All the top tier and many other characters as well have their ways to counter Fairs, Nairs and pills. It just requires some experience. The only thing Doc really has better than Mario are his killing moves as you already pointed out. But Mario's agility > those if you ask me. Playing as Doc will often make me lose because he's so clumsy my opponent doesn't even need to predict where I'm going. He'll just know because the character is so slow he will often just be able to see it and adapt. Also, Doc can cover himself with pills while recovering, but Mario's cape and down B help him recover from further distances compared to Doc's.
Mario trades that agility for something far, far better though. Doc's Fair, as a killing move, allows him to play the middle of the stage far better than mario can because he has a legitimate off the top kill move. Because Mario doesn't he has far more trouble playing center stage, especially with characters like Fox/Peach/Ganon/Marth. Mario is more reliant on gimp kills off the side, something Doc does exactly as well as mario(well, not exactly but the differences are minuscule enough to ignore) IMO the character with the better options at any given time is the better character.
 

J03

Smash Master
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#89
a strange arguement haha, Mario is better then Doc?

the lack of a killing move is a mega deal. we look at ganon... he is nothing BUT killing moves haha and he does alright for himself =P. On the flip side Aldwyn your a falco player, killing comes easily with the character, however when you play a matchup that takes away your killing moves the matchup becomes infinitely more difficult. such as playing a jiggs or a samus. I belive jiggs just shot up numerous places simply because she is so difficult to kill, so how is a lack of a killing move not a big deal?

Im not saying Mario isnt a good character, his speed and comboes are actually insane, in fact my favourite combo video of all time is a mario combo vid (we all know which one i mean =P) but Doc is simply more stable.

Im not happy about it, but i cant deny the truth, i only hope you main mario and prove me wrong =)

@UGS. dont get grabbed?
 

Fuzzyness

The Reality!
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#90
You have to be close to the edge of the stage for this. So it can't be this. And yeah, wobbling is banned, so I don't get why they put them 3rd.

As long as Sheik is higher than Puff, this list is irrelevant.
Um, you forgot the d throw charge f smash grab one too =] **** IC! xD

If you dont know what im talking about watch fly amanita **** zhu with it :s


Also.. I want to prove somehow one day that mario is better than doc! :O
 

Smasher89

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#91
Wobbling is not banned (neither used much though) here in sweden, and texas scene proves that it doesn´t require a ban either =)
 

J03

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#92
smasher89. for you as an IC's, how useful is wobbling?

how many times per match do you get it?

how often is it more useful then the IC's other grabs?

how often do you win the match/turn a match around, via wobbling?
 

Smasher89

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#93
Well, I´m very incosistent with it, so it´s far safer for me to random chainthrowmindgames instead of trying wobbling(I think I´ve "learned" a wrong timing lol):/


The 30-KO isn´t what is the most useful thing, the most useful thing is the fear it can generate in the opponents mind, the though of "If I get grabbed, my stock will be over" against some players with the wrong mindset.
Everyone knows that fear won´t take you anywere and hold you back, which basicly can make opponents who don´t take it as a challenge to do technical mistakes=sometimes oppoturnitys to grab.
In the other way, the players who DO take it as a challenge makes much less technical mistakes and gets one of the best way to practice and become better.

Not sure about the number of how many oppoturnitys I get for it against Armadas peach, it depends alot on who gets the early momentum, peach though should never get grabbed by an IC :(

It´s often more useful against their worst matchups, who they don´t have a really reliable chaingrab on, other matchups other kinds of chainthrows can work better to mess up the opponents mind, even though it might have some risk, it can get alot of reward (grab later XD).

As I said, for some reason, I don´t get the timing down (trust me, I´ve practiced, but I guess not enough for these years), and turn around a match with wobbling requires alot of skill, especially since Nana will allways in some way take damage between the stocks :/
 

Staco

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#96
nope, and you are supposed to DI away, dont blame me when you get Fsmashed with terrible DI though XD
Yeah, I can get out of it with Marth, but I see some good Fox/Falco players in germany getting chained by him with this chaingrab, so I thought its unescapeable.
 

Faab

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#97
1 jiggs
2 fox
3 peach
4 falco
5 sheik
6 marth
7 captain falcon

Jiggs just rapes and has no bad matchups at all.

Fox rapes, only bad matchup is marth, goes even with jiggs.

Peach as demonstrated by armada (which is currently the highest standard of peach play) showed us what peach can do. peach has no bad matchups. Has some trouble with jiggly and fox mainly but that's even at best.

Falco gets ***** by marth and has alot of trouble again jiggs, for the rest he just rapes or is even.

Sheik has alot of pretty horrible matchups. Her ability to punish people's mistakes is insane and therefor she is this high. jiggs rapes sheik, fox can **** sheik, falco can **** sheik, peach rapes sheik. Therefore she can't be higher then 5th place.

Marth has some trouble with falcon, jiggs, peach and especially sheik. All he's got going for him is really his ability to **** space animals.

Captain falcon has alot of potential if played correctly, however he gets to gimped easily by everyone above him on the list which makes him on the bottom of the tournament characters. He is clearly above the rest of the cast so he gets in on the list.

The rest of the cast don't mean ****.
 

VA

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#98
Why is peach jiggz in favour of jiggz? She's not number 1, it's a complete load of ****.

It is silly to say the rest of the cast don't mean ****, they do.
 

VA

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Is pika jiggz in jiggz favour? Is pika falcon in falcon's favour? Is pika peach in peach's favour?

What I mean to say by this is that you can't just write off the rest of the characters. It's a tier list, not definitive, and not concrete and not forever.
 

VA

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Nah, you're wrong. And Jigglypuff was around his place now in NTSC tier a while ago. Anything could happen.

See Axe doing good against Armada, beating Scar and in no way getting ***** by any jigglypuff, not that I've seen matches of him vs any of them.
 

Armada

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Strangelove: You need 4 grabs to win and if someone ask me i wanna say ic can do that against almost everyone.

Puff fox and peach is really hard to grab.

IC is really good.

Faab: Your list suck :p
Peach have big problems against Fox/Falcon and marth is also good aganist her.
 

Faab

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Ah yeah i forgot about falcon peach, she still deserves 3th after that imo though.
Marth >>>>>>> noob peaches while a good peach > a good marth.

Or are we including matchups for noobs aswell? In that case it would be a very different list -_-

Edit: Even if fox > peach according to you. I've put him above peach didn't i? :)
 

Mr P

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Marth>Peach.

Marth have so much better range so much better combos and he is so much faster.
THANK YOU. I have been saying for years falcon > peach :laugh:. marth falcon and fox definately peaches worst matchups.

also i think i was the only one to vote fox as top in the last list, glad to see people have come around.
 

Mariofan12

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I think the reason why Shiek is above Jigglypuff is because Sheik is way faster attack wise and running speed wise. If you move fast enough as Sheik, you can keep hitting Jigglypuff and Jigglypuff would not have the chance to attack. Once Sheik attacks, she can just run away and Jigglypuff will have a hard time catching her. That's my reasoning.
 

VA

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I really like the way people act as if this is definitive and correct. Ok so shall we say "final PAL tier list" like they did with the last NTSC tier list? Doesn't it take something pretty spectacular in a player to be able to do what Mango and Hbox can? Anyway whatever, when they get de-throned I'll be here laughing.
 

Zone

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- Zelda has two dangerous moves: fair and bair. As long as the Kirby is aware of the limitations within these two attacks, he can abuse the fact that his bair stays out longer, that he is smaller, that Zelda's recovery is predictable, stale and laggy, that her grab is slow and much shorter than his etc. He basically has to take advantage of the fact that he has superior oos-game to her.
Man you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Zelda. Zelda doesn't just spam F-air and B-air so how are you gonna punish it unless it's an approaching one? you can't get in fast enough on a retreating kick as Kirby. And Zelda's recovery is not that predictable. You can shorten/lengthen it by how far you tilt your control stick. You can sweet spot. You can edgecancel a platform. Zelda has one of the best air dodges in the game which can help with recovery.

Kirby is so slow at moving, I think I could even get my shield up in time if you were to get off the edge and chase me landing in stage. and if there is a platform to teleport to and your holding the edge well then phew I'm super safe when it comes to Kirby. And if your not holding the edge well Sweet spot will never get punished with Zelda unless I over shoot it some where I need to fall a bit to grab it.

Zelda has crazy good priority, and a VERY VERY Good out of shield game. She can power shield into down smash a near instant punishment. She can upsmash out of shield, Nayru's love out of shield to cover more Area. Her grab is crap, I'll admit that.

Zelda's biggest problems when it comes to hightiers are fox/falcon/shiek. And that's mainly because of their speed. They can get in between kicks even if they are retreating. EASILY. And Pichu guess what.

Pichu has speed so he can more easily get in on Zelda's retreating kicks.

When it comes to Zelda vs Kirby or Pichu. I'd have to say pichu has a better chance.

I know this is kind of late. But I know ALOT about Zelda, and that comment saying Kirby has a easier time with Zelda than pichu is crazy talk IMO
 

Hack

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Man you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Zelda. Zelda doesn't just spam F-air and B-air so how are you gonna punish it unless it's an approaching one? you can't get in fast enough on a retreating kick as Kirby. And Zelda's recovery is not that predictable. You can shorten/lengthen it by how far you tilt your control stick. You can sweet spot. You can edgecancel a platform. Zelda has one of the best air dodges in the game which can help with recovery.

Kirby is so slow at moving, I think I could even get my shield up in time if you were to get off the edge and chase me landing in stage. and if there is a platform to teleport to and your holding the edge well then phew I'm super safe when it comes to Kirby. And if your not holding the edge well Sweet spot will never get punished with Zelda unless I over shoot it some where I need to fall a bit to grab it.

Zelda has crazy good priority, and a VERY VERY Good out of shield game. She can power shield into down smash a near instant punishment. She can upsmash out of shield, Nayru's love out of shield to cover more Area. Her grab is crap, I'll admit that.

Zelda's biggest problems when it comes to hightiers are fox/falcon/shiek. And that's mainly because of their speed. They can get in between kicks even if they are retreating. EASILY. And Pichu guess what.

Pichu has speed so he can more easily get in on Zelda's retreating kicks.

When it comes to Zelda vs Kirby or Pichu. I'd have to say pichu has a better chance.

I know this is kind of late. But I know ALOT about Zelda, and that comment saying Kirby has a easier time with Zelda than pichu is crazy talk IMO
Oh trust me, it's not that I'm underestimating Pichu/Zelda - it's you who are GRAVELY underestimating Kirby.
I've already taken my time explaining my motives, and I'm also drunk as I'm writing this, but if I ever get the chance to play you, you'll know what I mean :)
 

Zone

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Oh trust me, it's not that I'm underestimating Pichu/Zelda - it's you who are GRAVELY underestimating Kirby.
I've already taken my time explaining my motives, and I'm also drunk as I'm writing this, but if I ever get the chance to play you, you'll know what I mean :)
I'm not underestimating Kirby,

I'm just stating the Zelda vs Kirby and Zelda vs Pichu. And Pichu gets in WAY easier.

Kirby does better than Zelda vs Captain Falcon, and probably even Shiek. But we both still suck against them :D

I don't know about pichu vs everyone else and kirby vs everyone else. But I can assure you when it comes to pichu and kirby vs Zelda. Pichu has a better chance.
 
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