Official Melee PAL Tier List v2.0 (March 2010)

[Nihonjin]

She does it so easily it's not even funny.

Puff can't do anything against a Fox who knows how to camp (I'd like to see Jman in gaymode Vs Mango or Hbox).
Fox is one of the hardest characters to grab with Puff.
Actually, the only advantages Puff has in the matchup are the upthrow/upair/uptilt to rest and the edgeguard, but still, Fox has lasers so he doesn't have to approach her/the edge. In small stages (YS and FoD) I'd say it's even, but in big stages, it's in Fox favor.

I don't think Fox can really camp Jiggs on any other stage than DL64 tbh, but Jiggs doesn't die on that stage so that creates a different problem entirely..

On FD/PS she can simply bair spam you towards the edge until you're out of places to run to..

 

[Infernum]

Actually it's easier on FD and PS (that's why I ban one of these against any Fox player) as the platform is larger. On these stages Fox can just run > lasers lasers ... > run lasers lasers ... > repeat.
What jman did to your Sheik is even more a pain to Jiggly.

 

[Nihonjin]

Having tried that against Hbox myself, I'm pretty sure a Jiggs can almost perfectly corner Fox by bair spamming..(But I'm a pretty bad camper and not the best Fox AND it was a friendly, so I might be wrong)

 

[Infernum]

Bair is useless if the Fox runs from edge to edge to laser Puff.

 

[Marc]

Jman doesn't take tournaments and I don't think he can beat either Mango or Hbox. M2K destroys him with his own Jigglypuff, which he doesn't even main. Jiggs can crouch under lasers a lot and her spacing is very good for getting within a range that's comfortable for her. Speaking of range, I think people tend to underestimate the range she has on moves like back air... even Marth has trouble with it. Also note that most of Fox' run-away-all-day-and-upsmash-for-the-kill-at-10% stages are typically banned (Corneria, Poké Floats).

Jigglypuff is a hard character to master because of her light weight, but that's never an argument. It's the same for Fox, he gets more punishment for mistakes than any other character in the game (except maybe Falco). Fox has just been in the picture for so long that many players reached the required level and the current trend is that he's a pocket secondary for many top players, suggesting he's actually easy beyond a certain skill treshold. Looking at just my own community, there are very few players who take any interest in Jigglypuff and the one who does (Biscuit) doesn't capitalize as much on her gay aspects. Also of note is that he doesn't attend that many tournaments, but still does relatively well.

Tier lists are decided for the most part by results and character potential. Many Americans considered Marth to be #1 for years, as we did with Sheik. However, the metagame has evolved so much that it's not right to go by just that, because matchups are getting more and more important and human error is more costly than ever (especially with a character like Fox). The fact is though that Jigglypuff takes all tournaments in the US and beats Europe's best players. Putting Fox above her is already a direct result of theorycraft, because he loses as things are now. Amsah and Armada are both outliers with their respective characters, while you can't ignore the participation : success ratio Jigglypuff has... relatively few dedicated mains, but it's not just a special player like Mango who wins with the character. Even if theoretically a character like Zelda would have the advantage against Jiggs, that's not nearly as relevant as a bad top tier matchup. The potentially even or disadvantaged matchups for Jiggs (Fox, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Doc) are on average lower on the tier list than Sheik's (Fox, Jigglypuff, Falco, Peach, Ice Climbers) with Sheik's reaching a point where they are pretty much set in stone.

 

[Armada]

Actually it's easier on FD and PS (that's why I ban one of these against any Fox player) as the platform is larger. On these stages Fox can just run > lasers lasers ... > run lasers lasers ... > repeat.
What jman did to your Sheik is even more a pain to Jiggly.

Dax: i have said puff is the best char since my first tournament and that was Ros1 (Feb 2005) i am not sure but i don´t think Mango or Hbox played smash at that time.

I am tiered people say they know stuff when they have no idea what they talking about.

If someone ask me the tierlist is not the same like tournaments results the tierlist will show us how good potential a char have.

And if someone ask me puff have the best potential and that have nothing to do with Genesis or mango because i have said this before i know who he was.

Puff is the best!

 

[Nihonjin]

Bair is useless if the Fox runs from edge to edge to laser Puff.

You underestimate her Bair spam.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

And even if they were, they're the top representatives of their character, by watching them you see what the character is capable of so it's not entirely wrong to base an opinion of Jiggs on how they play her.

Fox has got shine, which is a one frame move able to outprioritize any other move in the game. In the best case scenario the opponent can avoid getting hit but can't hit Fox. This makes Fox virtually invincible. Should he therefore be banned from tournaments? Answer: no. Fox is not invincible because nobody has the accuracy to shine every single move of your opponent. The same way, Mango and Hbox gave us show of what Jigglypuff CAN do, but this doesn't mean ANYONE picking jigglypuff can do as good as they do. The fact that so few people can use a character THAT good implies the strenght doesn't fully reside in the character itself. Mango destroys everyone as Puff, but could easily do the same with many top tiers I think. When making a tier list, not only the character's pure skills but also how easy it is to use should be considered. Otherwise we should just test things with AR and at that point the tier list wouldn't represent the metagame anymore. Also, do not forget to take into account everyone's unexpernce in fighting puff. Mango and Hbox gave show of what she can do. Someone will eventually give show of what you can do to counter her game.

What the hell are you talking about?

Dax talks about the fact that people like b1tching about the best in the world's main character all the time. In 2006 PC ***** with Falco, so Falco was considered broken and moved up in the tier list. In 2007/2008 M2k became the best as Marth and guess what.. Marth got tied up with Fox as top tier. Now Mango and Hbox are winning and Puff rises at the same level of Fox and Falco. Hmmm.. I'm definitely starting to see a pattern here lol.

Peach surely does not get owned by Fox. In Super Theory Bros maybe, but not in reality.
Apart from that, everything you said is very true.

Peach does get owned by Fox. This doesn't mean of course ANY Fox player can beat ANY Peach player, but the match is still in Fox's favor. The more campy he gets, the harder it is for Peach. Also, he is one of the few who kill Peach with relative ease. Definitely the best counter to her both in PAL and NTSC version if you ask me.

I agree with infernum on Fox VS Puff, Fox players lose because aren't campy enough. Also, Fox is dead since PC quit. No one among the new Fox player has statisfied me enough. Sure, people like Jman, M2k, Mango, etc. use Fox better than PC now, but they don't fully exploit his potential IMO (and I'm not speaking of super theory bros.).

I'm not really sure on Puff VS Marth either. Recent results show that Puff prevails, but in spite of Marth's problems KOing Puff his range advantage still makes hard like **** for puff to get close. I really don't have any experience against Puff in general, but IMO it's even.

Jigglypuff is a hard character to master because of her light weight, but that's never an argument. It's the same for Fox, he gets more punishment for mistakes than any other character in the game (except maybe Falco). Fox has just been in the picture for so long that many players reached the required level and the current trend is that he's a pocket secondary for many top players, suggesting he's actually easy beyond a certain skill treshold

Fox and Falco suffer their mistakes in different ways. Usually they get punished by either comboes or gimps, both of which requires an act of stupidity bu the Falco/Fox main and/or bad DI. Jigglypuff's weight problem isn't something the Jigglypuff player can do anything about. If Puff gets hit by Fox' Usmash at 100% he's dead, no matter if its being used by Mango or Plank.

Also guys stop picking on Dax lol. In spite of him not being a top European player he knows about the game more than you'd think.

 

[Infernum]

Puff cannot crouch under lasers. Range < lasers, and Fox doesn't need Corneria or GreenGreens to outcamp Puff.
M2K destroys Jman with Puff ?

And I don't think that Biscuit does well only because he mains Puff.

Just look at my list and you'll see that I placed her 3rd (actually I might change it to 2nd now but it seems that the original 3 step vote is not going to happen).

I agree on Jiggly > Sheik Marth Falco Falcon IC Samus ... , but she is not > Fox. And if she was > Fox, why did you put her under Fox ? And I don't underestimate her Bair spam, it's just that Fox players are trying to do useless stuff when they could just learn how to camp.

 

[Nihonjin]

Dax talks about the fact that people like b1tching about the best in the world's main character all the time. In 2006 PC ***** with Falco, so Falco was considered broken and moved up in the tier list. In 2007/2008 M2k became the best as Marth and guess what.. Marth got tied up with Fox as top tier. Now Mango and Hbox are winning and Puff rises at the same level of Fox and Falco. Hmmm.. I'm definitely starting to see a pattern here lol.

And how exactly does this apply to me again?

Just because that's been the pattern doesn't mean that someone can't think the best players character is the best character in the game for legitimate reasons.

Anyway, I have a headache and I'm busy right now so I'll reply to the rest of your post later

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

And how exactly does this apply to me again?

Just because that's been the pattern doesn't mean that someone can't think the best players character is the best character in the game for legitimate reasons.

Anyway, I have a headache and I'm busy right now so I'll reply to the rest of your post later

It surely doesn't lol. Tier lists are just OPINIONS. Therefore there are not right or wrong tier lists. I'm not criticizing you for your choices, just providing you with the reasons that convinced me to write a different list from yours (and most people's, considering BOTH in USA and Europe people consider Jigglypuff a god now). What I (and probably Dax too) wanted to suggest in not to judge Jigglypuff solely on her Mango/HBox success, that's it. Armada said he considered Puff to be the best since 2005, but I think he's on a minority here ^^

 

[Dax]

She does it so easily it's not even funny.

All right, I hope to play you with young link in the future. I also know that there is a good link player in france (Niam) so I can trust you on link, and he may be indeed too slow. Still, i'm not sure about young link, ALSO because there are just no really good yl players since Chu dropped him.
Anyway, if puff gets randomly hit by a bomb at 6x% he's dead with a dair combo. Tested on FD. But again, let's go back to high tiers.

Edit: (just found out this vid by accident lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAvB4Deef8Q#t=0m35s

Of course I'm still not sure if it could be a counter since puff has some deadly combos against him =) but I hope someone else tries this match seriously.

First things first, I want one thing to be clear: tier lists reflect only the highest level of our metagame. Meaning that if you have no experience yourself at that level, your perception of it will likely be distorted.

That's ok, but I play with Aldwyn and have attended various european tournaments. I may probably not be able to perform at such levels but please believe me when I say that at least I have a good knowledge.
Still, of course I haven't played Mango nor Hbox so on that point you are right .

As is the case with Jigglypuff, a character that only becomes borderline broken on the highest level, which also explains why Jiggs hasn't done much before Mango showed up.
This also makes your views on Jiggs outdated, you're only used to playing her on a level where she isn't all that good, which is perfectly demonstrated by your faulty opinion of Marth>Puff.

I did not state that Marth > Puff, I only did say that he can do well. I don't think Puff has much advantage. The only "proof" I have is M2k losing to Hbox and don't take me bad, that sure is something but if I think on what marth can do and what puff can, I don't think he is advantaged and sadly good marth players are very rare nowadays.

Also, there's nothing inherently wrong with our views on Jigglypuff being formed solely by Mango and Hbox(actually Darc counts too) as they are the only ones showing what that character can truely do. The small amount of representation could skew our views a bit, but that's not really the case here. Remember, there's always the exception to the rule(the rule being 'Jiggs is not top tier' and Mango being the exception), but if there are more, the rule has been broken(since Hungrybox also became dominant).

Darc is Really good but he just is nowhere near Mango nor Hungrybox. Actually, no offense to him intended, I think that he just proves that even if you "master" almost everything puff needs you have to be Mango or Hbox to get THAT results . Don't take me bad, of course it could happen that new players or even him eventually become even better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_79qdawY8_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fUAZ5YXc9o

I must say that I do indeed consider Mango an exception since he manages to obtain "Almost" the same results with Falco and Fox (with him beating Hbox at Winterfest with Fox and his Falco being beated only by Armada in some close sets and some random Kage-is-too-good as far as i remember).

We can say that there's also Hbox but I really don't see any difference. Again I ask then why isn't Peach the best character in the game in PAL in your tiers.

The thing you mentioned about Marth not being top tier when he was dominating is actually a counter-argument against your point, so I don't know what you were trying to say with that.
And PeePee beating Hbox is irrelevant to your point, but you were probably attempting to beat Amsah using his own logic which you completely straw manned.

I don't understand what you mean. I'll change my words then: the fact that Marth was able to win tournaments for years while not being "the" top tier means that Ken was just too good. Then m2k was. Now Mango is, although he is far more impressive since he uses other characters. The fact that Armada is the Only peach in PAL that gets those results to me says that he is really good.

I may understand that we can say: well, but that's the highest level the character has reached. So we should consider that. But then again, you can agree with me sayin that in that way we are going to count only tournaments results. And then again I must say well then the pal tier list should be like (Since Amsah mastered sheik and he still has better results than Zgetto and other foxes )
1) puff 2) peach 3) sheik) 4) fox

but I (hope) that we can agree that that is simply not true.


PeePee beating Hbox just shows that even if we consider Hbox the "maximum" of puff's potential, well, we can say that:

- PeePee is too good (lol)
- The match is just more playable than we thought.

Are we going to raise Falco for this if PeePee keeps beating him? lol

success ratio Jigglypuff has... relatively few dedicated mains, but it's not just a special player like Mango who wins with the character. Even if theoretically a character like Zelda would have the advantage against Jiggs, that's not nearly as relevant as a bad top tier matchup. The potentially even or disadvantaged matchups for Jiggs (Fox, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Doc) are on average lower on the tier list than Sheik's (Fox, Jigglypuff, Falco, Peach, Ice Climbers) with Sheik's reaching a point where they are pretty much set in stone.

I'm not sure about Mango since he generally seems to be able to win tournaments even with other chars (but i'm not going to digress in that)
I understand your point about the high tier bad matchup. But we are discussing jiggs, not an entire set. What I mean is that I do understand that even if Kage beated Mango he may have had even more troubles with other Mango chars, but that's just is irrilevant. So I don't see why something would change.

Also, I'm sorry but I don't believe at the fact that there is something set in stone.
I have faith in the fact that Amsah tried his absolutely best with Sheik against Puff but, for example, I don't think that Falco has any advantage on Sheik (and he ***** Zhu pretty badly ).

But we'll see more if someone else manages to beat Hbox and\or Mango


@ Armada: Uhm, all right, but... I didn't said anything about you, did I
Actually, the only thing I said about you is that I found curious that you put Ice Climbers third.

 

[Nihonjin]

We can say that there's also Hbox but I really don't see any difference. Again I ask then why isn't Peach the best character in the game in PAL in your tiers.

You answered your own question..

 

[Rybaia]

One side notes to the Ikea guys

I'm soo proud of you.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Dax: i have said puff is the best char since my first tournament and that was Ros1 (Feb 2005) i am not sure but i don´t think Mango or Hbox played smash at that time.

I am tiered people say they know stuff when they have no idea what they talking about.

If someone ask me the tierlist is not the same like tournaments results the tierlist will show us how good potential a char have.

And if someone ask me puff have the best potential and that have nothing to do with Genesis or mango because i have said this before i know who he was.

Puff is the best!

Is he real?

also sheik> puff

 

[Nihonjin]

Yes, he's real.

And no, she doesn't. Puff can do everything Sheik can and then some.

 

[Blubby]

Is he real?

also sheik> puff

*sigh*

how often did i explain it to you?^^

ask pascal in berlin to play 1 time puff vs shiek to show it how bad the match up is^^

 

[Armada]

Dax: "The problem in your logic is that I KNOW that you and whoever else thinks that Puff is the 2nd best char did it ONLY because of Mango and Hbox".

That is the reason why i said that.

Yomi: Yeah thats me and i have always said that about puff you can ask the whole smash community in Sweden they know i have said she´s the best char.

Puff>Sheik
I wanna say sheik (or falco) has the worst chances against puff off the top tiers.

The two best things with Sheik is her edgeguard and grab and both of them suck against puff.
Sheiks recovery is also really bad against puff.

Puff>Sheik.

 

[Fuzzyness]

so much meh discussion lol, just accept how it is

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Dax: "The problem in your logic is that I KNOW that you and whoever else thinks that Puff is the 2nd best char did it ONLY because of Mango and Hbox".

That is the reason why i said that.

Yomi: Yeah thats me and i have always said that about puff you can ask the whole smash community in Sweden they know i have said she´s the best char.

Puff>Sheik
I wanna say sheik (or falco) has the worst chances against puff off the top tiers.

The two best things with Sheik is her edgeguard and grab and both of them suck against puff.
Sheiks recovery is also really bad against puff.

Puff>Sheik.

In spite of me being quite unexperienced I wouldn't say Falco does that bad against puff. I am starting to think Sheik loses to him though, as she really hasn't any good way of killing her/punishing rest.

 

[Infernum]

I wanna say sheik (or falco) has the worst chances against puff off the top tiers.

Sheik definitely.


Dax : Don't judge a match up on one video. It's like saying "oh look, Mewtwo counters Fox" after looking at some Taj videos. Jiggly really has no problem to deal with (Young) Link.

And I agree with Armada. I think a lot of players already thought that Puff was at least among the top 5. Benoit and I already discussed about it a long time ago and he told me that even Ken told that in is opinion Puff was a top tier character.

The problem here is not really Puff Vs Sheik I think. The best NTSC and PAL Puff players say it's in Puff's favor, and the best NTSC and PAL Sheik players say it's in Puff's favor. There's no room for a debate on the match up I think.
The thing that I don't understand is that some people put Fox 1st on their list but they say that Puff has no bad match up and also that Puff > Fox.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Yomi: Yeah thats me and i have always said that about puff you can ask the whole smash community in Sweden they know i have said she´s the best char.

nice to know you're on Smashboards now
i wasnt really serious, or i would've explained further and i didnt say anything connected to the discussion ^^
i do feel that sheik is the better character though, but thats just me, i dont want to get into a discussion about it... my opinion is irrelevant

 

[Marc]

Infernum, I can't speak for everyone, but Amsah, Remen and me consider both Fox and Jigglypuff to have no matchup worse than even, with Fox having more untapped potential. Because many people need convincing that Fox vs Jiggs is evenish rather than in Fox' favour, it might seem that people are arguing that Jiggs has the advantage while all they're really saying is that Jiggs has the tools to compete with him.

 

[Fuzzyness]

I still think the speed of jiggs movement + floaty weight does not make up for it in the fox vs jiggz matchup to make it equal

 

[Hack]

Don't feel like reading all that's been said. I'll just reply to some of the things I read:

- Peach's worst matchups in PAL are Captain Falcon, Marth, Fox and Jiggs (in that order). Other than that, several characters in the lower tiers do well against her. She shouldn't be any higher than she is.
- Jigglypuff should be 2nd. I agree with most of what Amsah has said.
- @ Aldwyn: Putting Mario over Dr. Mario is absurd. Mario has worse killing options, worse approach (Docs pills+strong fair+nair with delayed sweetspot gives him a whole lot more to throw around) and he can't cover himself with pills when he recovers. His slightly better agility doesn't make up for that.
- Kirby is underrated as hell. He should be moved up AT LEAST 4 placings, and no, I'm not kidding. He has sick bairspacing, a million ways to gimp (great edgeguard in overall), goes even with Falcon and does pretty well against Sheik.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

cool list but why is pichu worse than kirby again?

also hack you know why kirby is uber low right?

he can't approach, limited to up-tilt combos, his throws suck, if someone knows anything about kirby he loses all of his easy SD gimps and just ends up killing him self, no solid kill moves other than maybe bair, autoloses to camping and seeing how kirby only camps what will they most likly do back?.

really his edge gaurd is decent but what of it? He has no solid ways to get them off the stage, about anything but the following:tilts/duck/edge gaurd(decent not OMG good) sucks really but really think of something to do that isn't on that list that is at least decent? then compare his crapy whatever to pichu yes pichu and pichu's ___ is better from recovery to being able to land a freakin move

HE HAS NOTHINNG

I think even KK will argee with me there about kirby shouldn't move up also the last time his metagame changed was when they figured out WDing.

PM if you disargee good day. But keep in mind i've studied kirby/pichu deeply, so I can back up what I say can you? PM me

 

[Pink Reaper]

I like Aldwyn's list. Pichu's so bad he's not even allowed on it LOL

/subscribed

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I know you don't think kirby should be 4 spots higher. I think I kindof died a little on the inside when you said that.

 

[Hack]

Just gonna sum up some arguments here, then I'll PM you later.
It's true that Kirby gets utterly destroyed by for instance Fox and Falco. There's just nothing he can do really, and he get's gimped so easily by them. But the machup chart isn't about how badly a character does in his worst matchups, but how many characters he/she can go fairly even/even against/beat. Kirby might be at disadvantage against Pichu, but he wins against M2, Bowser, Ness, (Zelda) and Yoshi, AND he does pretty ok against some higher tiers.
As said, you'll get my full motivation in a PM later =) I've got some tournament experience with Kirby and most of the bottom tiers, and found that Kirby's underestimated (though he's not good, just not at the bottom).

 

[TheManaLord]

How is fox the best in PAL? He's barely the best in NTSC and even then he's never consistently won major tournaments ever.

He should be in a parallel tier list because he's the most famous secondary character EVER.

 

[Mind Trick]

Kirby might be at disadvantage against Pichu, but he wins against M2, Bowser, Ness, Zelda and Yoshi, AND he does pretty ok against some higher tiers.

I dont see what Kirby has going on for him, except for a bair and an uptilt. Slow as **** and can't approach. It might be that everyone else is not underrating Kirby, but that you are just underrating the other low/bottom tiers. I can see him go even with Ness and perhaps Bowser, but the rest definitely not.

A Boy and his Dinosaur tier is lol btw

 

[Hack]

I might be a little biased because I'm (arguably) the best Kirby in EU, but I do play almost every other LT on a high level. Kirby can actually be a pain in the *** for almost all of the top tiers (except for Fox - a terrible matchup - and Falco, who is almost as devastating).
- Against CF, I daresay it's an even matchup. CF gets ***** if Kirby doesn't let him gain speed or if he starts shielding, Kirby can crouch under CFs grab and punish accordingly, you can link several bairs in a combo and the gimping is like taking candy from a child.
- Against Sheik, it's no worse than 65-35 at worst. Sheik should win, but she must remain on the ground (which is not too easy), or else she is at a disadvantage.
- Marth is a pain, obviously, but Kirby has ways of getting in close with his crouch and shieldgame, at which point the Marth can't utilize his range and spacing, because as soon as he tries to leave his shield, Kirby takes him out with a bair. Off stage, he is almost certainly dead due to the fact that Kirby can afford to trade hits with bair vs Marths up-b/fair and still survive.
- Puff is not a good matchup, it's basically Kirby fighting a far more mobile and powered-up version of himself.
- Peach is pretty tough, seing as she can retreat from Kirbys bair with float and punish accordingly with fair, as well as utilize her turnips, but it's not impossible to get through.
- ICs have problems vs bairspacing and ftilt, the matchup is fairly even (in ICs favor).

Now, let's look at his LT-matchups, the ones that would actually matter for his placing.
- Pichu can edgeguard him pretty badly, and the nair combined with Pichus small hitbox makes it a matchup in Pichu's favor (might be Pichu's only advantageous matchup, in fact).
- Mewtwo, big as he is, has no real way of getting through Kirbys wall of bairs and he gets edgeguarded sooo easily if he's down low, because he can't throw out a uair to fend off Kirby's drill due to the fact that he then loses all upward momentum from djc and dies.
- Bowser is just too fat and easy to pull quick combos on, and he gets edgeguarded like there's no tomorrow.
- Ness is more of a pain, but far too easy to gimp for it to be an even matchup. He also doesn't have a good way to edgeguard Kirby, at least not comparably.
- Zelda has two dangerous moves: fair and bair. As long as the Kirby is aware of the limitations within these two attacks, he can abuse the fact that his bair stays out longer, that he is smaller, that Zelda's recovery is predictable, stale and laggy, that her grab is slow and much shorter than his etc. He basically has to take advantage of the fact that he has superior oos-game to her.
- GaW is kinda dangerous, and I think it's an even matchup at best, but probably in GaWs favor. The one thing Kirby's got against him is better gimps, but GaW isn't that gimpable.
- Yoshi eats **** from Kirby because he has no oos options. Yoshi is also one of the few characters that Kirby can, with good timing, dthrow techchase without fail. Terribly easy to catch Yoshi with inhale while he's recovering, and thereby make good stock trades.
- Roy almost can't win against Kirby, in theory. Whenever Kirby get's a percentage lead (or stock lead) over him, and there is a ledge, he just has to get there and start inhaling facing towards the center of the stage. Roy has no way of reaching Kirby without getting sucked in, and thus losing (or trading) a stock, which means a certain win for Kirby if he gets the lead. This put aside, Kirby can beat Roy pretty badly with bairspacing anyway (I know I'm nagging about bairspacing, but it's really good, and if you mix it up with uptilts and occasional jabs, you get some nasty shieldpressure).


Here are some of my views summed up. Of course, explaining things in theory isn't nearly as good as putting them into practice, so feel free to come visit me in Sweden and enjoy a cool night of gaming together with me, Armada, IVP, Calle W and many more of us in the Swedish smashcommunity. I'll be sure to show you why Kirby is underrated =)

 

[TheManaLord]

EU CF's are seriously bad if CF v Kirby is an even matchup. Gimme a break.

 

[Calzum!]

I lol'd at jiggs

 

[Hack]

EU CF's are seriously bad if CF v Kirby is an even matchup. Gimme a break.

Might be. Or US' Kirby game is just terribly underdeveloped
But seriously, I would gladly MM the best US CFs with Kirby, even if I'm not sure of winning (and even if it doesn't really prove anything if I do). I think the basic idea of how Kirby is played (or should be played) needs to be reformed. Against CF, he should be pretty aggressive, for instance, but also wait out CFs approach, seeing as he has multiple ways of destroying it.

 

[VA]

This tier list is **** lol. Fail.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

- @ Aldwyn: Putting Mario over Dr. Mario is absurd. Mario has worse killing options, worse approach (Docs pills+strong fair+nair with delayed sweetspot gives him a whole lot more to throw around) and he can't cover himself with pills when he recovers. His slightly better agility doesn't make up for that.

The Melee player I used to train with was a Doc main, so I know the character quite a lot. You are arguing that Doc has got better Fair, pills and a better Nair.. well, all of those require Doc to be in the air to be used and in my experience staying in the air as Doc = death. All the top tier and many other characters as well have their ways to counter Fairs, Nairs and pills. It just requires some experience. The only thing Doc really has better than Mario are his killing moves as you already pointed out. But Mario's agility > those if you ask me. Playing as Doc will often make me lose because he's so clumsy my opponent doesn't even need to predict where I'm going. He'll just know because the character is so slow he will often just be able to see it and adapt. Also, Doc can cover himself with pills while recovering, but Mario's cape and down B help him recover from further distances compared to Doc's.

After playing Armada in Low Tiers I'm not sure if I really want Kirby to be at the bottom of my list again, however I wouldn't really place him higher than 2 or 3 positions.. and he's still bottom tier anyway, I don't see any way he could lose to any top tier.

On the other hand I'm curious to know what Armada thinks of Pichu now =P

 

[Hack]

Aldwyn: At risk of sounding like a hypocrit: don't you think you're basing your views a little too much on your personal experience? Seeing how well Doc does overall compared to Mario should be proof of the opposite (or at least give a good indication of it). Furthermore, Mario's recovery is only longer/more flexible than Docs by a tiny margin, and that is still totally irrelevant, seeing as Mario can't put up a wall of pills when he recovers = instant death off-stage.
I'm glad Armada could show a little of Kirby's true potential =) but I agree with you on one point though: Pichu is not to be ****ed with.

 

[J03]

why is luigi in a rank all by himself? surely is should be called L/luigi rank over C rank if theres only him in it.

he should either be apart of B or D (which would become C obv) rank. Luigi is too good for D rank too. Make him rank BBBB

 

[VA]

lol, watch linguini vs HMW, the wall of pills is ****. you can light shield them and grab the edge and they've wasted a jump in getting you onto the edge. pills are also easily beaten out by attacks that go through them into doc, like peach using bair or what have you.

I agree with Aldwyn that Mario is better and totally under played. Doc is quirky, easier and 'cooler'. A lot like how falcon sees so much play in the US, way more than sheik or marth, who are both better than Falcon but lack a unique player to drive their meta games on (in the US).

Mario is woefully under played but in the UK we have a good Mario, it just takes courage and patience to take one of the **** characters to the top. I'm a sell out, I started out with Y.Link but now I main Peach :/

EDIT: jo3, cos this tier list is a steaming pile of ****.