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Official Melee PAL Tier List v2.0 (March 2010)

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Marc, Mar 26, 2010.

  1. Marc

    Marc
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    Revival of M

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    S: Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Falco, Marth, Peach
    A: Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers
    B: Samus, Ganondorf, Doctor Mario
    C: Luigi
    D: Mario, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Link, Young Link
    E: Roy, Yoshi
    F: Mr. Game & Watch, Zelda, Bowser, Ness, Mewtwo, Kirby, Pichu

    [​IMG]

    Complete files, courtesy of Slhoka:
    http://smasheurope.com/files/2010_PAL_tier_list.pdf

    Procedure

    A total of 33 people from all PAL countries with a (decent) scene voted by entering an ordered list. This lead to the following ordered list of characters:

    Fox
    Sheik
    Jigglypuff
    Falco
    Marth
    Peach
    Captain Falcon
    Ice Climbers
    Samus
    Ganondorf
    Doctor Mario
    Luigi
    Mario
    Donkey Kong
    Pikachu
    Link
    Young Link
    Roy
    Yoshi
    Mr. Game & Watch
    Zelda
    Bowser
    Ness
    Mewtwo
    Kirby
    Pichu

    I’d like to thank .Tero, Slhoka, Aniolas, Fuzzyness and CAOTIC for helping with the list collection. I’d like to thank Slhoka especially for his help with the statistics, he really did most of the work.:)

    I originally said there would be more discussion, but considering most of the voters aren’t active on Smashboards (or any other unified forum), this is simply not feasible. People are free to discuss the list in this topic, of course.

    The Tiers
    We looked at the data to come up with statistically sound gaps. We put the gaps wherever there was more than a 1.5 points difference between characters. The standard deviations didn’t lead to anything, so there really was only one way to separate the characters (which you will see in Slhoka’s file). There isn’t much of a point in discussing the gaps, because every other split is entirely arbitrary. As for the names of the tiers, we went with the conventional naming method applied in all fighting game scenes, which is a bit more elegant than our previous numerical order. For those who think in high/mid/low or any variation thereof, it should be fairly obvious where to put those categories. For low tier events: D, E & F tier would probably be the best selection, but it’s really up to the TO to determine whether Luigi should be in or not.
     
    #1 Marc, Mar 26, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
  2. Tero.

    Tero.
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    Good work.
    You're welcome.

    *subscribes*
     
    Xiivi likes this.
  3. Nikenick

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    Nice list, good job.
     
  4. #HBC | ZoZo

    #HBC | ZoZo
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    Shocodoro Blagshidect

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    Third! Link should be higher. (/flame on!)
     
  5. Dax

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    Wow, i'm happy we managed to do this. I'm also very OK with the final list, even if i put jiggly a bit lower :) *proud*
     
  6. Nihonjin

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    Sheik above Jiggs? This one is displeased.. >: (
     
  7. Dax

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    oh and to Kjab and Ice: you both fail hard for putting game e watch last. *tsk*.

    and a big LOLWUT @ aniolas and armada for putting Ice Climbers Third .
     
  8. CAOTIC

    CAOTIC
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    Australia knows where it's at! Jigglypuff for no.1 hands down!
     
  9. Nihonjin

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    *moves to Australia*

    I'm curious as to why Sheik is above Jiggs though, anyone care to explain the reasoning behind that?
    I'll be more than happy to shoot it down..
     
  10. S.D

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    Interesting to see the different attitudes of various countries.

    Solid list in the end, great job everyone!
     
  11. Navn

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    Great stuff guys. The PAL version really needed an updated tier list.
     
  12. Tero.

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    Yes.

    ESA2:

    1: Amsah (Sheik)
    2: CaptainJack (Sheik)

    3: Armada
    4: Masashi
    5: ACAP (Sheik)
    5: Calle W
    [...]
    13: Benoit (Jigglypuff)
    [...]
    17: Infernum (Jigglypuff)


    SMACK:
    1: Armada
    2: Zgetto
    3: Amsah (Sheik)
    4: Adam (Sheik)

    5: Remen
    5: Poilon


    ESA3:
    1: Armada
    2: Amsah (Sheik)
    3: Strawhat Dahean
    4: Zgetto
    5: Iñf (Jigglypuff)
    5: Adam (Sheik)


    TSL4:
    1: Amsah (Sheik)
    2: Overtriforce (Sheik)

    3: Poilon
    4: Zgetto
    5: Makenshi
    5: Faab
    7: Inf' (Jigglypuff)
    7: Ice (Sheik)

    9: Strawhat Dahean
    9: Adam (Sheik)
    9: Benoit (Jigglypuff)
    9: Baxon


    OSTS:A
    1: Armada
    2: Amsah (Sheik)
    3: Remen
    4: Adam (Sheik)
    5: Ice (Sheik)

    5: Zgetto
    7: Biscuit (Jigglypuff)
    7 : Faab


    ZEST4:
    1: Armada
    2: Zgetto
    3: Amsah (Sheik)
    4: Faab
    5: Adam(Sheik)
    5: Remen
    7: Ice (Sheik)
    7: Makenshi
     
  13. auroreon

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    Glad to see the list finally got updated, needed it badly.
     
  14. Nihonjin

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    I asked for reasoning.

    Sheik's good results in tournaments is because of the skill level of the players that use her, not because of the character. Same goes for Puff's bad placings.

    Of course results carry some weight when deciding tier lists, but I think a little too much in this case (IMO).

    Because really, other than Jiggs not having good representation in the European scene and thus placing lower than Sheiks, what reason could you possibly have for thinking Jiggs is worse?
     
  15. Marc

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    Added to that, I don't think Jigglypuff currently has any bad matchups, while Sheik does (Jigglypuff, Fox to a lesser extent, maybe Peach in PAL too).
     
  16. Nihonjin

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    ^Exactly my point.
     
  17. The Paprika Killer

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    how was the division in tiers done? like why is luigi put in C on his own?
     
  18. Blubby

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    Jiggs has a bad matchup vs fox.

    still in pal.

    fox is freaking gay

    but anyway... i don't get the list really.

    fox is 1st... lolwut?
     
  19. Nihonjin

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    ^In Theory, yes. In practice, no.

    And even if she did have a hard time against Fox, so does Sheik. But Sheik also has a bad match against Puff, IC's and some would argue Falco as well..

    So that's one arguably bad matchup for Jiggs against 3 horrible match ups for Sheik..


    And yes, Fox 1st. He goes even with everyone and if it's not even, it's in his favor.
    Who else should be first?
     
  20. Marc

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    It's in the opening post.:urg:
     
  21. Wschl

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    Fox has an slight advantage over jiggs.(for example, Corneria and YS are 2 Stages where jiggs does rly awful against fox)

    The main reason, why jiggs is placed under shiek is probably the fact, that jiggs can be killed very easy by some chars.

    fox -> jab to anything, most likely upsmash
    shiek -> jab,fair
    cf -> dthrow knee, jiggs cant rest-counter if CF knows how to pull it off.
    Just the 3 ideas i got on my mind now, there are other examples.

    @Fox i think he got an slight disadvantage against Falco on any stage but FD.
     
  22. Aldwyn McCloud

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    Since I seem to be one of the few who gave quite uncommon judgements, I'll put down my reasons here ^^

    This is my list:

    1 Fox
    2 Sheik
    3 Falco
    4 Marth
    5 Peach
    6 Falcon
    7 Jigglypuff
    8 Ice Climbers
    9 Samus
    10 Ganondorf
    11 Luigi
    12 Mario
    13 Dr. Mario
    14 DK
    15 Link
    16 Pikachu
    17 Ness
    18 Pichu
    19 Young Link
    20 Zelda
    21 Roy
    22 Mr. Game&Watch
    23 Yoshi
    24 Mewtwo
    25 Bowser
    26 Kirby

    Fox doesn't need any reason to be there. Nor does Sheik, we all know how good she is. In NTSC they're even more broken, but their nerfs aren't enough to knock them down the top (IMO at least).

    Choosing between Falco's agility and comboing ability and Marth's overpowered range for third place was hard. I picked Falco because he is exactly a mini Fox and I heard much more complains about him than Marth.

    Armada evolved Peach's metagame enough for her to be considered in the same tier as the others but not enough for me to consider her higher than how she is now. She lacks Fox and Falco's mobility and Marth's range. Has got very good priorities and a nice projectile though. Terrible to face in close combat. She beats Sheik in PAL, hands down. Might rise higher in positions in the future, however it's too early for me to decide: Armada was the first one to use her the correct way, so his success might be caused by lack of experience from his opponents. The future will tell Peach's correct position.

    Not enough to say about C.Falcon and Ice Climbers. Everyone seems to have placed them in that position. One side notes to the Ikea guys: Ice Climbers get screwed by most counterpick stages, do not have a useful projectile, get edgeguarded pretty easily and risk desynch at every single hit they take/mistake they do. They won't be redimed by the legalization of a technique that should anyway just stay banned.

    Now we get to the real painful part: JIGGLYPUFF. Jigglypuff's success in 2009/2010 is undeniable. The problem is.. apart from Mango and Hbox I can't think of anybody else winning tournaments with Puff. This led me to think the character itself isn't as broken as everyone thinks: it's just Hbox and Mango being D4MN good with them and everyone else lacking real experience against the character. Try to count the really good jigglypuff players in the smash history and compare them to the number of good Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth players. The latter outnumber the former BY FAR. I just can't help but think if Jigglypuff really was that broken we would have seen A LOT more Jigglypuff players rise both in the past and in the present. In the end, she remains a very light character with an arguable range and no projectile. Rest is very strong but exposes Jigglypuff to considerable risks and can't really be abused that much. Will also result in stock trading quite often.

    From here on I don't expect anyone to really care as it's mostly about Low Tiers. Having I been playing for 5 years I started experimenting with all the cast and not just my mains/top tiers. I therefore have a little bit of experience about them and will throw out my 2 cents about them as well anyway.

    I moved Mario above Doctor Mario because of his agility prevailing on Doc's better ability to kill: the ability of killing an opponent better is of no use if your character is so clumsy you can't even approach/escape. Overall, I have much more fun playing as Mario and am actually convinced of the existance of a quite considerable gap between the two.

    Ness is up there because his shield doesn't get shield stabbed easily. His Fair/Bair and dash attack disjointed hitboxes are quite useful if used with the correct spacing. Nair hits very fast and gives him a good oos/close combat move. Uair comboes pretty well. Grabs are nothing special. He suffers from the absence of projectile and of a good recovery. Also has problem KOing but he is quite agile if you ask him. I can do better as him than as many other low tiers so I thought he might deserve a raise.

    Pichu is where the real deal comes. He is terribly underrated for the agility he has. I may have exaggerated in placing him as 18° but his Nair is just abusable lol. Hasn't got that many problems in killing either if you land an Usmash. If the opponent finds out how to fight against him the game's pretty much over but I definitely think he doesn't deserve last place. His main con is his lack of range, his pro is that he is so small you can avoid many moves by just ducking. Very agile character, can be dangerous if your opponent doesn't know what to do against him and you get along with the fact he doesn't grab edges =P.

    As for the bottom tiers: Yoshi is there because he can't get oos and gets edgeguarded easily. G&W is very light and has the worst possible shield in the game. Also, I find him kinda clumsy. Mewtwo is terribly light and clumsy. Bowser is terribly slow and clumsy. Mewtwo gets above just because Taj impressed me more than Gimpyfish. Kirby is just... Kirby lol.

    Just my 2 cents ^^
     
  23. Nihonjin

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    Corneria, banned at nearly every big tournament I've been to in the last couple of years so that hardly counts. That just leaves YS, but Jiggs has DL64 to make up for that. It's even.

    With decent DI she'll live as long as any character (if not longer). Because unlike other characters, she can't get gimped or edge guarded.

    Fox drill shine combo's and upthrow upairs and kill nearly everyone at relatively low percentages, it's not really a strike against Jiggs. And because it's almost impossible for Fox to shinespike her or shine combo her, I'd say she actually has an easier time against him than most characters (definitely easier than Sheik)

    Besides, even if she was easy to kill, she more than makes up for it by being able to kill Fox at 10% via Upthrow Rest or anything else Rest.

    I don't think you can even jab her when she's crouching and even if you could, there's no way you can get a Jab in between the bair and her retarded aerial spacing.

    On top of that, even if that did work, Jiggs is a COUNTER to Sheik, anyone saying otherwise has never played that matchup against a Jiggs that knows what he's doing. So even if Sheik has a semi-easy kill on her it doesn't change a thing, the matchup still heavily favors Jiggs in every single way imaginable.

    Crouch > Grab, Bair >>> C.Falcon's recovery
    Besides, it's not like getting Up/Downthrow to Knee combo'd by C.Falcon is Jiggs exclusive..
     
  24. Aldwyn McCloud

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    Since Mango said this too I'll take it as true.. however I never understood how Puff can counter sheik without a projectile..
     
  25. Mind Trick

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    Pichu/Ness/G&W above Yoshi...
    unforgivable Aldwyn xD
     
  26. Aldwyn McCloud

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    About G&W I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure Ness and Pichu can beat him xD

    OR

    I just suck as Yoshi. Oos game is too vital for me to play without it. Also, he feels a bit clumsy on controls as well. xD
     
  27. Infernum

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    Some of you guys are wrong about Jigglypuff.

    Firstly, she has 2 bad matchups, Fox and Dr.Mario, and goes even with some other characters.
    Secondly, about the stages for the Vs Fox matchup, YS is not at all one of the worst stages. Fox needs to camp her, so he needs a big stage. But still, RainbowRide or Pokefloat and it's just done.
    And if the Fox knows how to camp, it's just **** too hard for Jiggs. Landing a grab on a campy Fox is just not possible. It's just that you have to be really carefull against her and if the Fox player doesn't know how to play against Jiggly, he'll get *****.



    Ok, Sheik placings > Jiggs placings in European tournaments, but well.
    How many good Sheiks in Europe ? Amsah, Adam, Ice, Overtriforce.
    Jiggs ? Me, Benoit, Biscuit.
    Benoit and I never went out of France for a tournament, and Biscuit never went out of Holland. There are a maximum of 2 good Jiggly players per tournament.
    Is that so illogical that Sheik placings > Jiggly placings ? Does it really means that Sheik > Jiggly ?
    Mango and HBox win nearly everything in the US. Does that make Jiggly 1st on their tier list ? No, because results =/= tier list, and if she was 1st on their tier list, she would be 1st in ours. Sheik players in Europe are better than Jiggly players, that's all. Playing a counter character doesn't give you a free win.

    Let's not talk about results please.
    ESA2:
    1: Amsah
    2: CaptainJack
    3: Armada (Peach)
    SMACK:
    1: Armada (Peach)
    ESA3:
    1: Armada (Peach)
    TSL4:
    No Peach
    OSTS:A
    1: Armada (Peach)
    ZEST4:
    1: Armada (Peach)

    We have ONE good Peach player in Europe, and he rapes everyone, so, Peach for 1st ?



    As for the list, Fox just can't be lower because "He goes even with everyone and if it's not even, it's in his favor."
    Amsah doesn't get why Jiggs is under Sheik (so do I), but I really don't get Peach's place. in PAL, what bad matchups does Peach have ?
    So :
    Fox = or > any other character (the = being like 1 or 2 characters)
    Jiggly < Fox
    Jiggly < Dr. Mario
    Jiggly = or > any other character.
    Sheik < Fox
    Sheik < IC
    Sheik < Jiggly
    Sheik = or > the others.



    My questions :
    - Why is Sheik above Jiggly ?
    - What about Peach ?
     
  28. Blubby

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    i don't know who's first, but i would say it isn't fox.

    fox gets comboed like no tomorrow, in pal he is way weaker than in ntsc.

    for example:

    fox vs marth
    fox vs falco

    i think most people would say (in ntsc) that marth is a little bit better in this match-up, also falco a little bit.

    so let's look at the pal version.

    marth's dair is only a meteor... but think about it: there are other ways to kill him, so i'ld say the ****ed up usmash is worse... marth profits from pal.


    same at falco, just timing the dair and you got the ntsc falco, of course fox doesn't kill falco very often with upsmash.. but still, he does sometimes AND the ntsc upsmash is better to combo (at least my friend said it to me, he plays a pretty decent fox)

    Shiek is of course ****ed up in pal... i dunno who's first, but since fox and shiek are so limited in pal i think they souldn't be 1st.
     
  29. Nihonjin

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    Fox goes even with Marth and Falco.
     
  30. Aldwyn McCloud

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    You REALLY gotta give me an explanation on why Doctor Mario would be a bad match up for Puff. The character is just not good enough if you ask me lol and I've NEVER seen a Doctor mario beat a Jigglypuff so far (though I haven't followed the US scene recently).

    In PAL Peach gets owned by Fox, and has problems with Marth, C.Falcon and possibly Falco.

    I placed Sheik above Puff because to me she looks just a better made character. Projectiles, nice range, good priorities, higher weight etc.

    In the specific match up Sheik might lose to Puff, but it's still too early to say. USA lack good Sheik and Europe lack good Jigglypuffs. So the Sheik-Jigglypuff match up didn't really have any occasion to develop properly.

    Also Blubby, Sheik and Fox do not get knocked down the top, expecially Fox =P. They're just broken and stay broken when switching to PAL. Usmash and Dthrow nerfs aren't enough to balance them out lol.
     
  31. Blubby

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    i wanted to say that this are disadvanteges to every match-up (slightly, but still: they're there) in comparison to the other top characters. especially for shiek.

    and Doc is a pain in the *** for jigglypuff (i main jigglypuff, you guys know morph_blue? kjab said he is maybe the best doc in europe.. too bad there isn't a good video on utube)

    you can't combo doc that well, it's nearly impossible to rest him and yeah, if u try it and you fail: YOU'RE ****ING DEAD. expect u got under ~15%... but you'll get a lot of %.

    fair is freaking gay, pills are annoying, d-throw -> fair... it's ****ing hard for puff. afaik you can't crouch the grabs... this is also very bad :(

    edgeguarding doc is hard, pills, down-b, cape and his up-b is hard to catch.

    well if u get on the edge and you are able to stay there somehow it's easy, but again: it's hard vs doc.

    of course doc'ld have huge problems edgeguarding puff.. but what for? fair kills her on top pretty soon, f-smash too (it's hard to di, because everybody likes to di f-smashes to the top)... d-smash is suprisingly fast, up-smash is pretty good to of course.
     
  32. Dax

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    I think sheik suffers Fox just as much as jigglypuff does.

    The problem in your logic is that I KNOW that you and whoever else thinks that Puff is the 2nd best char did it ONLY because of Mango and Hbox.
    First: jiggs has never done almost anything for years.

    Then Mango and Hbox came out and won a lot.

    Wow, what about the fact that Ken and M2k used Marth but he's not The top tier?
    What about the fact that Armada wins every european tournament with peach?

    It's like you said: it's the person playing and not the character. So yeah, jiggs is not broken at all lol and I don't even agree with the "no bad matchups"john.

    Fox can do well against jiggs.
    Marth can do well against jiggs.
    Falcon can do well against jiggs.
    Ganondorf can do well against jiggs.
    even Zelda can do well against jiggs lol.


    Not only: the more you go lower in the tier list, the more sheik rapes those character and puff doesn't.

    Puff doesn't **** a good luigi, doc, link\ylink, yoshi, zelda.

    Oh, and yesterday PeePee just beated Hbox with Falco.

    Conclusion: two (and only two) really good puff players exist in the world. Does that make puff 2nd best char in the game? Not at all for me, lol.
     
  33. Nihonjin

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    Why do you think that?

    You don't know anything. I've been saying Jiggs is underrated since ESA1 if not longer, same for Armada. Hbox and Mango strengthened my belief, sure, but they aren't the source of it.

    And even if they were, they're the top representatives of their character, by watching them you see what the character is capable of so it's not entirely wrong to base an opinion of Jiggs on how they play her.

    Irrelevant.

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Again, what the hell are you talking about?

    1) My argument was never about Mango and/or Hbox, so quoting me about how it's the player and not the character doesn't change my argument at all.

    2) I never said Jiggs was broken.

    What exactly am I making excuses for again?

    I simply stated my opinion on Jiggs and why I think she's at least second best in the game.
    If you disagree, that's fine, but elaborate.

    Yes, he can. That's why the match up is considereds even or slightly in either ones favor.

    This
    |
    |
    |
    V​

    Crouch > C.Falcons grab (so no easy throw > Knee combos)
    Bair > C.Falcons recovery
    Rest > Everyone

    I doubt this is a match up in C.Falcons favor.

    Not in PAL he can't.

    Zelda - A true JigglyPuff counter [​IMG]


    Who cares about low tier? Puff beats them, she doesn't need to utterly stomp them.

    What exactly is your point?

    Yes, lack of Puff players is obviously proof she's not that good..[/sarcasm]

    You're doing the exact thing you're accusing me of. You base your opinion on what we've seen Puff's do in tournaments, instead of actually looking at the character and forming an opinion.
     
  34. Tero.

    Tero.
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    Smash Champion

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    Neither of those match-ups is horrible. Jigglypuff is the worst out of those three (cosidering the current metagame), but Falco and IC's are even.

    Yoshi's Story is definitly not the best Fox stage against Jigglypuff.
    Even though the ceiling is low you don't have much room to run away and camp and you're always near the edge because of the stage size.

    Stadium, Cruise and Floats are way better.

    Tier Lists don't consist only of results (neither they consist only of match-ups), however results do matter. Tier Lists represent the current metagame and the likelihood for characters to win tournaments.

    The current european metagame does not centralize arround Jiggs. We don't have many Jigglypuff players and those who play her do not consistently place top, therefore Jigglypuff should not be first, seccond or even top 5.

    Even if I don't approve of this sort of tier list that is the way the smash community always made them.

    Peach is not #1 because there is only one player placing top with her.

    Fox and Sheik limited?
    That's new to me.

    Peach surely does not get owned by Fox. In Super Theory Bros maybe, but not in reality.
    Apart from that, everything you said is very true.

    lol

    Totally agree.
     
  35. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
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    Striving 4 Perfection

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    Jiggs >>>> Sheik
    Peach >>> Sheik
    IC's (according to pretty much everyone) >> Sheik
    Fox > Sheik
    Falco = or > Sheik (Either way it's not easy)

    So that's 3 counters and 2 hard match ups.

    Even if you don't think IC's and Falco are bad for Sheik, Jiggs, Peach and Fox are definitely not good news no matter how you look at it.
     
  36. Tero.

    Tero.
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    Smash Champion

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    Can't say much about the other Match-ups, I think they're all pretty much even.
    But I'm neither a top Sheik, nor a top players, so you're the boss.

    However I do think you are exaggerateing and using M2K logic (you should not what I want to say), lol.

    (Actualy I don't think there is anything even near a real counter MU among the top tiers.)
     
  37. Remen

    Remen
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    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    135
    First things first, I want one thing to be clear: tier lists reflect only the highest level of our metagame. Meaning that if you have no experience yourself at that level, your perception of it will likely be distorted.
    As is the case with Jigglypuff, a character that only becomes borderline broken on the highest level, which also explains why Jiggs hasn't done much before Mango showed up.
    This also makes your views on Jiggs outdated, you're only used to playing her on a level where she isn't all that good, which is perfectly demonstrated by your faulty opinion of Marth>Puff.
    Also, there's nothing inherently wrong with our views on Jigglypuff being formed solely by Mango and Hbox(actually Darc counts too) as they are the only ones showing what that character can truely do. The small amount of representation could skew our views a bit, but that's not really the case here. Remember, there's always the exception to the rule(the rule being 'Jiggs is not top tier' and Mango being the exception), but if there are more, the rule has been broken(since Hungrybox also became dominant).

    The thing you mentioned about Marth not being top tier when he was dominating is actually a counter-argument against your point, so I don't know what you were trying to say with that.
    And PeePee beating Hbox is irrelevant to your point, but you were probably attempting to beat Amsah using his own logic which you completely straw manned.
     
  38. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
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    Striving 4 Perfection

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    Formed in '06 and proven to be wrong

    So if you think it's even, that's fine, but elaborate.

    Where did I exaggerate? And what's M2k logic supposed to be?

    Puff counters Sheik in NTSC (let alone in PAL).

    Mango, Hbox, M2k and I all agree on that last time I checked. If that doesn't convince you nothing will.
     
  39. Blubby

    Blubby
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    you knew what i meant, limited like "limited" by pal, so they reduced their strength.
     
  40. Infernum

    Infernum
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    She does it so easily it's not even funny.


    Puff can't do anything against a Fox who knows how to camp (I'd like to see Jman in gaymode Vs Mango or Hbox).
    Fox is one of the hardest characters to grab with Puff.
    Actually, the only advantages Puff has in the matchup are the upthrow/upair/uptilt to rest and the edgeguard, but still, Fox has lasers so he doesn't have to approach her/the edge. In small stages (YS and FoD) I'd say it's even, but in big stages, it's in Fox favor.
    Again, a Fox who is not carefull will just get ***** by Puff, but if he knows the match up, it is really hard for her.
     

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