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Official MBR Tier List

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JPOBS

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lets be real
Pika is only one spot out of middle tier, and i think we're all convinced now pika is def better than link, its not a stretch AT ALL to say pika should be in mid tier.

i think pika is just after samus and the mario bros and ahead of dk
 

rhan

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lets be real
Pika is only one spot out of middle tier, and i think we're all convinced now pika is def better than link, its not a stretch AT ALL to say pika should be in mid tier.

i think pika is just after samus and the mario bros and ahead of dk
I hope you're starting your thoughts from the top of the tier list instead of seeing how far Pika is going to jump. Because Pika is not after Samus the way I was thinking it.

But I do agree that he's a better than Link but not by much. They're about on the same page.
 

JPOBS

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I hope you're starting your thoughts from the top of the tier list instead of seeing how far Pika is going to jump. Because Pika is not after Samus the way I was thinking it.

But I do agree that he's a better than Link but not by much. They're about on the same page.
yes, my wording is consistent from the viewpoint that you are reading the tierlist from top to bottom.

"after" would mean "below"

Pika is better than Mario.

Not even (hungover) Mango could make Mario good.
yea but sober mango was trashing everyone in frienlies and crews. cept armada.

inb4lolfriendlies
edit: actually, yea mario probably does suck more
 

rhan

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yes, my wording is consistent from the viewpoint that you are reading the tierlist from top to bottom.

"after" would mean "below"
Alrighty no problems. I agree. Just had to clear it up. I was thinking about the jump from bottom going up.
 

Archangel

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I would say when it comes to Pika. Anther is like a King version of Pika. Axe is like a Mango version of Pika.

I think there is much more to come from this character and we are just seeing the start. I don't see him ever making it past high though even in 5 years. However it wouldn't be unreasonable to put him in Mid tier at all right now. I can't remember the last time any of those characters out placed a Pikachu and there are only like...3 of them.
 

Archangel

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The Hbox version of Pika has yet to show up. Given the styles though I don't think it's possible for a style like that to transfer over to Pika. Maybe if his Thunder was instant kill and his Uair had 5 times more range and was spam-able but idk..
 

KAOSTAR

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spam-hbox is a beast. no johns!

apex was amazing, even if hbox
was in gf. everyone needs to man up and learn to beat him.

maybe it will take a low tier or something. whatever it is, people got to put in work.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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Also what's neat about pikachu is he has a good amount of great players like axe, pikachad, n64, once chu dat, and 3 others with names I can't remember.


pikachu above mario? maybe now that I think about it it is possible pikachu when played right won't even have any glaring weakenes his problem are the same as pichu but worse and better in some areas. range and taking hits.
 

rhan

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spam-hbox is a beast. no johns!

apex was amazing, even if hbox
was in gf. everyone needs to man up and learn to beat him.

maybe it will take a low tier or something. whatever it is, people got to put in work.
Mango did it with Mario. It's possible. People just have to learn his patterns. And space well.
 

Quic

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You're right, I can't wait to tell Armada, Amsah and Mew2king to just learn Hungrybox's patterns and watch their spacing, that's what they're missing.
m2k was really close to beating him though, but i think he got slightly too aggressive at times.
 

Blistering Speed

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They all have potential to beat Hungrybox (Amsah and Armada may need to work on their Foxes and ignore their mains for this matchup), my point was rhan's simplified view of beating Hungrybox is stupid.
 

rhan

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They all have potential to beat Hungrybox (Amsah and Armada may need to work on their Foxes and ignore their mains for this matchup), my point was rhan's simplified view of beating Hungrybox is stupid.
I was also referring to the fact that it was a lower tier'd character that beat HBox.

You sir.

Is a ******.
 

Strong Badam

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axe got 5th with Pikachu at apex
clearly, Pikachu is the 5th best char.
 

KAOSTAR

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I support KKs argument when he says being able to randomly 0-death characters keeps him from being trash, and thats after we discovered he was kinda good. Pikachu should move up on the tier list without question.
 

V3ctorMan

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My thoughts, and somewhat Axe's but I guess I'll get his input from you guys.
Copied post I made from the MU discussion thread

^ (Kaostar's post) this. for the most part

People tend to forget Axe is one player. Not taking away from any of the other Pikachu players, but it's like Taj with Mewtwo. Taj is the only notable good Mewtwo player, with his success.. and Iori behind him...but that alone hasn't changed Mewtwo's placement too much. Pikachu should stay where he's at.

Pikachu has the same, weaknesses, advantages, etc.. that he's always had. It's not the character. it's the player playing the character. I've trained, grown, taught Axe many things, primarily not with Pikachu, but about alot of the game as he has me. I don't think people acknowledge Axe's amazing ability to bait players, and punish at the maximum level. I'm not trying to be rude here but it's not like oh Axe can do it so it must mean, "anyone" can. Yes anyone can do it indeed, but Axe is the only one that has taken it to such a level at this moment in time. Axe also covers his options extremely well, he takes Pikachu's weaknesses and practiclly, makes them not applicable, since he knows his options very, very well. On top of that his Margin of error is very little, combined with his amazing reaction, spacing, and plain simple awareness define his capabilities. I think people tend to forget that. It's like Oh Axe won with Pikachu vs Jman, Shiz, etc therefore Pikachu is a good character. Not precisely, it's more the player playing the character that everyone forgets. Pikachu needs to remain until proven otherwise. Axe, like Taj is still one player. Like that "exception" player atm
 

V3ctorMan

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Double post:

I'd like to put you all in the mind of Axe's for a quick minute give this a read and give me your thoughts insights etc..Thanks all n_n

Reading this thread has really had me thinking about a lot of things. The main question in the OP made me think a lot, which was "Why do you play Mewtwo?"

I know Pikachu's not the same, but I can relate to everything said in this thread because he is also a lower tier character with obvious flaws. So why don't I just pick Fox and end up with much greater results? Why don't all Mewtwo mains just pick Sheik and **** twice as hard?

Most of the answers I've heard were simply just because you like the character. Of course, if one of your facorite pokemon is Mewtwo and he is in a video game, you will most likely play him. This is mostly the reason why I picked him as my character to start with, but there are many reasons why I decided to stay with him even after I learned all about advanced moves, the tier list, etc.

One thing that most Melee players cannot wrap their heads around is that a low tier character can be good. I hate how most of the Melee community will just look at the tier list and pick a high/top tier character because they're "good characters".

From my experience, it is much easier to get at a decent skill level with a higher tier character than it is for a lower tier one. You could probably pick a high tier character and be considered a good player within a few months. A low tier character would most likely take even longer. BUT, playing low tier characters has it advantages that many people might not have known of because they've never given those characters a chance. And for those who HAVE given them a chance, they quit the characters much too early and never reach the point at which will give you an advantage.

Yes, playing Pikachu was very hard at first and I did want to stop playing him many times. But all it really required was patience. After playing the little guy for like 2 years, I finally felt like I understood how low tier characters work, and most people who play this game have no idea.

Every character in the game his his/her own strengths, and you must use those strengths to cover up for their weaknesses. The more you play that certain character, the better you will be at using those strengths. After playing Pikachu for so long, I came to a point where people would tell me that my character had no weaknesses. Pikachu definitely does have a lot of weaknesses, but I guess I was able to cover up my weaknesses so well that it seemed so flawless to them. The more I play Pikachu, the less apparent my weaknesses become, thus making it seem like Pikachu is a good character.

People say Fox is a good character. I think this is because he does not have nearly as many weaknesses as Pikachu or Mewtwo does. However, Fox still does have weaknesses. Every character does. It all just depends on how well you are able to cover up those weaknesses with your strengths. The lower tier of the character, the more weaknesses that character has, which means you will have to play those characters for a longer amount of time to learn how to cover those up. When you reach a certain point with your character, it will seem like it's impossible to defeat, no matter which character you choose.

Taj is the prime example of taking his mewtwo to the furthest level. Honestly I feel like it's much harder to fight than almost every Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco I've ever faught. But Mewtwo is a bad character! Why wouldn't it be harder to fight the high tier characters that so many people play?

I think this is because Taj has played Mewtwo so much and knows his character so well, he is able to cover up so many of his weaknesses with his greatest strengths. However, even as great as his Mewtwo is, it can still get even better than it is now. Everyone can get better with any character. I know V3ctorman is going to prove it too with his Yoshi, and he is already at a very high level with his Mewtwo.



I really feel like not many people have given enough attention to low/bottom tier characters. They can just see the weaknesses that the character has and it is too much to bear for a long period of time. However, once you get past those weaknesses, you can focus on strengths, and I KNOW that every character has strengths that have not been looked into yet, ESPECIALLY for low tiers. I know that I have found so many strenghts that Pikachu has that was unknown, and I know that I have turned him into a great character with my playstyle. It was extremely hard dealing with his weaknesses, but now I have a huge advantage with my character that many people don't even know about. EVERYBODY and EVERY character is capable of this, you just need to have the dedication and patience. If you can be dedicated to your character for long enough, you will find strengths in your character and find that you can make him even more frightening than the best top tiers. Soon enough, I will prove this with Pikachu.
 

Merkuri

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One thing I'd like to point out about this whole Axe is one player so Pikachu's place shouldn't change in the tier list argument is that if one player is advancing the metagame then it's sufficient grounds for the character to move up in the tier list. Axe is doing things that other Pikachu players aren't. And if Axe were to discover some way to 0-death players with Pikachu then Pikachu would move up in the tie list, the fact that Axe is the only one doing it is irrelevant because it's a tool that is available to Pikachu.
 

john!

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guess i'll place my final bets for the new tier list

fox falco puff (been saying this for ages)

sheik marth peach falcon

ics ganon doc samus

pika luigi link mario dk

zelda roy ylink m2 g&w

yoshi bowser ness kirby pichu
 

KAOSTAR

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Roy def is not up there with m2.

GW may be but you have nothing to support.

Zelda has evidence of being usable, mewtwo has evidence, YL is lacking.
 

rhan

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Young Link isn't represented because most of the YLink players have kinda stopped playing him. But now that Jash is returning YLink should have a better rep. Especially now that his return has given hope for us YLink to actually start playing him again.
 

Pi

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You're right, I can't wait to tell Armada, Amsah and Mew2king to just learn Hungrybox's patterns and watch their spacing, that's what they're missing.
Cause they're all infallible right?

Col Bol, Mango, Dr. PP, Zhu, Merc have all taken either matches, sets, or tournaments from Hbox. And those are just off the top of my head.

It's easy to name drop people you know are good that haven't beat Hbox, it's harder to realize they make mistakes and are not perfect.


As far as tier lists goes, does anyone actually know what the 'tier list' is majorly comprised of? Tourney results or character potential?

What makes a good character:
Having good mobility (WD takes care of most of this)
Having a good approach (within human fallibility)
Having a good defense, and options out of it (sorry yoshi)
Ability to rack up % (a mix of the above)
Map control (ability to cover options, sup falco)
Survivability (recovery, resistance to combo's)
Having reliable means to kill (gimps, rest, throw-death combo's, easy-to-land-move to death combo; fox jab upsmash)

Past that it gets into specifics and who's behind the character.
These vary from matchup to matchup.

If you want to look at a specific character, plug one in and see how it does;
Pikachu
Mobility is pretty good, has good speed and wavedash is decent.
Approach I would say is lacking, no disjointed hitboxes, lack luster projectile, aerial maneuverability is fairly decent which can compensate a bit.
Defense is mediocre, no move like shine/UB OoS as an end-all punish. Shield grab is fine, but grab range is short, wavedash is medicre, so again not anything to brag about. Upsmash OoS is nice as a finisher, but the situation to use it (reliably) shouldn't come up very often.
Ability to rack up % I'd say is lacking (severely). Pika combo's are notoriously unrewarding unless you can end it with a smash/UB. Projectile isn't really spamable either. Combine this with a mediocre approach and I'd say this is one of pikachu's biggest downsides.
Map control is low-average. Speed is meh, projectile is meh.
Survivability is pretty superb. Not super light, recovery is very nice, probably average combo-ability (as in, between luigi & falco)
Reliable means to kill, pika gimps are really nice, on stage kill moves are lacking, landing a smash attack is a lot harder in practice than in theory. Edge guarding is nice. Overall I'd say average as far as killing goes.

That, to me at least, is what is important in a character. Obviously I don't have extensive pikachu knowledge, and some of the information I listed may be inaccurate, but it's more of a template.

Understandably there are a lot more factors when considering a character, but yea. A rough overview of my PoV of judging how good a character is.
 

painlord k11

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eh i think generally 1. fox 2. falco 3. shiek 4. marth 5. peach 6. jiggz 7. falcon idk this game is really balanced the top tier charachters all **** eachother if u do it right im just trying to judge it from tournament results. this is really hard to do and in general over all.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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Jolts are f***ing amazing, if you beat them out pikachu/pichu can get you due to lag, if you sheild pikachu/pichu have a decent sheild pressure and sometimes if spaced right jolt to grab would work I believe. My brother thinks shining my jolts at me is a great idea however no matter what he does I punish him. I angle it so if he shines it it goes straight up and he is stuck in lag whihc I get a grab out of. If he WDed back to shine so my spacing is f***ed up it's still fail because i'll jump over the projectile and still get him. with good spacing the jolt is amazing.

How i've been useing it latly I think it's mad unrated heck i've camped pretty hard with this move.

upair out of sheild is amazing same for nair their sheild to upairs on it.

Also I think pichu's recovery is a little bit betteer than pikachu's now. because with pichu you can't double up-B to the upper left/right twice and it covers WAY more air than pikachu's, plus wall jump and smaller size helps. no landing lag=harder to punish. main flaw is sweetspoting it's very hard as pichu.


Also I thought about this a lot but I think i'm right.

Falcon should be above marth.

They both get comboed and gimped just as bad. Falcons combos do something marth'sare just him trying to move them over to the other side of the stage. If you aren't a noob marth's are just to easy to deal with comeing from pichu main. Really marth just needs to gimp them of hope their a noob. falcon is not that limited he has better movement, combos, and I would argue better recovery.

This isn't because there are more better falcons and falcons place better but simply the truth marthjust has range and edge gaurd and combos unless they gimp don't really do much.
 

Archangel

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Top
Puff
Fox
Falco
Sheik/Marth/Peach

High
IC's(wobbling)
Falcon
Ganon
IC's (no wobbling
Doc/Mario
DK

Mid
Pikachu
Luigi/Samus
Mewtwo
Zelda

Low
Link
young link
Roy
Ness
Yoshi

Go away
Game&Watch
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

My guess for a possible tier list.

Fixed for NJzFinest.
 
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