Official MBR Tier List

[ranmaru]

You just try doing that with Doc against someone remotely good.

I don't. I was just exagerating. And plus I really liked the example I used. (I know doc's limitations and that if he does act recklessly he'd probaly get stomped on)

Well I wouldn't go that far. Doc doesn't have the attack priority/range to "go ape with a wrench". But the point is he has more mobility all around than Samus, which allows him to act on attacks a bit more freely than Samus.

Yeah well from what you said I was just thinking of how to really do good against samus, you know? And plus fast falling and doc's nair and all, it seems good on paper, but not practically.

But we still have a little bit more freedom than Samus. Although sadly we can't just wait around for her to make a mistake. We have to sift through all her missiles and chargeshots and tilts. :[

And if she is really patient... bummer.

 

[TresChikon]

At least pills are more annoying.

Patient Doc hurts more than patient samus.

 

[Merkuri]

I think Doc > Samus for the simple fact that he was way more filling power. Samus has much better recovery but in the I simply don't think it's relevant because her methods of killing are so limited(I've never heard Pichu or G&w recovery been arugments as to why they be placed high in the tier list)
Doc has a lot more viable kill moves than Samus. His Fsmash and Dsmash are much better kill moves than Samus' equivalents and his fair is the business. Up throw to fair and works on fast fallers and I think Down throw to fair works on floaties(Armada was falling for it), the only thing Samus has going for her is the kill shot, and if your opponent has correct DI none of your moves combo into it. Doc also has much, much better combo ability than Samus and he can chain grab like 1/3 of the higher tiers. On the other Hand Samus racks up damage by poking(which relies on the player being smarter than his opponent)
I'm not however saying that Doc is a much better character than Samus but I think the difference is notable and this notion of Samus being the best mid-tier character needs to be put to rest.

 

[EC_Joey]

her methods of killing are so limited

Dsmash, Fsmash, missiles, bair.

 

[adumbrodeus]

He's saying they are limited, not that she has a limited number, and honestly, they're all rather linear and relatively difficult to combo into at kill percents. Relative to the rest of the cast (that's good) anyway.

 

[EC_Joey]

He's saying they are limited, not that she has a limited number

Doc has a lot more viable kill moves than Samus.

they're all rather linear and relatively difficult to combo into at kill percents. Relative to the rest of the cast (that's good) anyway.

Who said she has to combo into them? Crouch cancel lands you a free dsmash/fsmash, and missiles you can spam at a distance. I'll admit bair is hard to land.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Who said she has to combo into them? Crouch cancel lands you a free dsmash/fsmash, and missiles you can spam at a distance. I'll admit bair is hard to land.

Responding to the quoted section, if he's talking about number of viable kill moves, then he's just wrong.


True, CCing does result in one, but that's true of just about every character, if she has no other reliable method to land them, then she's a bit screwed when she's at higher percents. Also, in general, aerial kill moves are more effective.

People still get hit by missiles when not in hitstun/phailing a powershield?


Also, I'd personally take Ganondorf at top of mid tier.

 

[EC_Joey]

True, CCing does result in one, but that's true of just about every character, if she has no other reliable method to land them, then she's a bit screwed when she's at higher percents.

There are other reliable methods. Punishing bad aerial spacing and smart edgeguarding is also a common way to land a kill move, which is also true of most characters.

Also, in general, aerial kill moves are more effective.

In general? You mean for most characters? This doesn't hold true for some of the cast. First one that comes to mind is Marth. More effective? In terms of what? How easy it is to land? How much knockback it produces? Less risk of getting punished?

People still get hit by missiles when not in hitstun/phailing a powershield?

The point I was making is that missiles are spammable and ranged, making them less risky to throw out than a fsmash/dsmash as long as you're at a safe distance.

I don't even play Samus or know much about her, I was just pointing out that guy's mistaken assumption about Samus' kill options.

 

[cheeseball540]

Edit for saving my life

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Edit for saving my life

Don't troll.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There are other reliable methods. Punishing bad aerial spacing and smart edgeguarding is also a common way to land a kill move, which is also true of most characters.

In general? You mean for most characters? This doesn't hold true for some of the cast. First one that comes to mind is Marth. More effective? In terms of what? How easy it is to land? How much knockback it produces? Less risk of getting punished?

The point I was making is that missiles are spammable and ranged, making them less risky to throw out than a fsmash/dsmash as long as you're at a safe distance.

I don't even play Samus or know much about her, I was just pointing out that guy's mistaken assumption about Samus' kill options.

1. Of course, but the point is relative to some other kill options in the higher tiers, the moves themselves and their reliable set-ups have relatively little mix-up potential.


2. General mix-up potential, they're more versatile, you can space them more freely, and they tend to be safer on shield. This equates to there being more situations where you can use the move. Grounded kill moves tend to be very unsafe and much more telegraphed due to the fact that you're stuck in one place when you perform them.


3. As far as missiles go, again, you're really not gonna be hitting people in that situation,so functionally they're a spacing controller.


Fair enough, I really just want to point out that aerial kill moves are in general, superior to grounded kill moves.

 

[Leacero]

3. As far as missiles go, again, you're really not gonna be hitting people in that situation,so functionally they're a spacing controller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko0V96HKK2M

I think you should focus on putting your theorycraft to practice Matt. Jesse doesn't even play Samus. =P

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko0V96HKK2M

I think you should focus on putting your theorycraft to practice Matt. Jesse doesn't even play Samus. =P

Yeah, so about a year and a half ago, that sounds about right, thanks.


On a side note, yeah... I did suck then, not that I'm good now... but that was just horrible.


Do you stalk me to make snappy comments?

 

[Leacero]

Yeah, so about a year and a half ago, that sounds about right, thanks.


On a side note, yeah... I did suck then, not that I'm good now... but that was just horrible.


Do you stalk me to make snappy comments?

TBH, and not to put you down or anything, I don't see much of a difference between your past matches and current matches. Sure you added in float cancelling a lot more for Peach and are doing better moves than f-tilt for Marth, but overall your gameplay remains unchanged. I'm just saying, for all the talk you do on these boards, you should concentrate on implementing them into your game step by step instead of wasting time debating it here.

None of us here at SBU claim to be good enough to be winning decently sized tournaments (at Melee, I don't know anything about the Brawl scene here other than Will), and when there are at least 15 other people here that can beat you handily I wonder how you can argue game strategy with confidence on these boards. Again, not trying to put you down, but I struggle to grasp how you seem to discuss all this theory and yet not be top 15 in your own school.

Also, this topic is like one of 5 that are on my subscribed threads, and you happened to post in it.

 

[Divinokage]

You can theorize smash all you want. I know many people study matches, watch lots of videos and things like that. However, if you put these people in battle then they get obviously crushed. The experience of battle is a lot of different. Just saying. You can have as much knowledge in the game as possible.

To me, there is no better way to increase your skill level than to fight opponents 1v1 or 2v2 non-stop. This is the only way to realize your mistakes and then you try not to do them anymore. Eliminating your weaknesses is the key to victory. Once that is down then all you have to worry about is your opponent and making the right decisions.

 

[Merkuri]

sorry for the double post.

 

[Merkuri]

Dsmash, Fsmash, missiles, bair.

Yeah, and that is limited as f**K. She can't combo into any of those moves when her opponent are at high percents. Furthermore her Dsmash is hardly a viable kill move, with good DI any mid-weight character can survive it on FD upwards of 50%. Doc simply has far better options. He can actually combo into his killing moves, Samus can't. He can chain grab, Samus can't. All Samus can do better is recover better(her controlling space is arguably about the same as Doc due to how amazing his pils are); and as I said before killing and combo power > recovery any day(look at Falco)

You can theorize smash all you want. I know many people study matches, watch lots of videos and things like that. However, if you put these people in battle then they get obviously crushed. The experience of battle is a lot of different. Just saying. You can have as much knowledge in the game as possible.

To me, there is no better way to increase your skill level than to fight opponents 1v1 or 2v2 non-stop. This is the only way to realize your mistakes and then you try not to do them anymore. Eliminating your weaknesses is the key to victory. Once that is down then all you have to worry about is your opponent and making the right decisions.

There is some truth to this but saying theorizing smash is useless is simply wrong. I have incorporated a whole of stuff into my game by watching match on youtube, and as a result I was able to win my first tournament last week. You maybe not be able to incorporate smash theory into your game but not everyone is like you Kage. That being said you are right about fighting opponents consistently is better than theorizing about the game though.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm not saying it's useless, I'm just saying.. if all you do is talk about smash then you'll get nowhere... I mean you want to become very good.

But incorporating things, first you see it.. and then you yourself have to find a way to use it properly according to your style. I mean you can't just use a technical skill randomly, you have to understand why a certain move is so good or so bad and then you can weigh in if it's advantageous to use it or not. Which is why you need to fight a lot. Gain the wisdom or the truth about why certain decisions are bad or good.. etc. etc.

 

[adumbrodeus]

TBH, and not to put you down or anything, I don't see much of a difference between your past matches and current matches. Sure you added in float cancelling a lot more for Peach and are doing better moves than f-tilt for Marth, but overall your gameplay remains unchanged. I'm just saying, for all the talk you do on these boards, you should concentrate on implementing them into your game step by step instead of wasting time debating it here.

None of us here at SBU claim to be good enough to be winning decently sized tournaments (at Melee, I don't know anything about the Brawl scene here other than Will), and when there are at least 15 other people here that can beat you handily I wonder how you can argue game strategy with confidence on these boards. Again, not trying to put you down, but I struggle to grasp how you seem to discuss all this theory and yet not be top 15 in your own school.

Also, this topic is like one of 5 that are on my subscribed threads, and you happened to post in it.

1. Analysis is a COMPLETELY different (though often related) skillset then actually playing.

2. Lol, even mike said it was ridiculous to say that it's reflective of my current level of play (I love how your analysis of my current play is of my peach where the vid is of my marth.

3. I only theorycraft with Melee occasionally, and it's mostly for more basic stuff, most of my theorycrafting is with Brawl, and whether or not I'm actually good at the game it's obvious I know my **** when it comes to Brawl.

4. Stop derailing the thread.

 

[EC_Joey]

Yeah, and that is limited as f**K. She can't combo into any of those moves when her opponent are at high percents. Furthermore her Dsmash is hardly a viable kill move, with good DI any mid-weight character can survive it on FD upwards of 50%. Doc simply has far better options. He can actually combo into his killing moves, Samus can't. He can chain grab, Samus can't. All Samus can do better is recover better(her controlling space is arguably about the same as Doc due to how amazing his pils are); and as I said before killing and combo power > recovery any day(look at Falco

Crouch canceling, spacing, smart edgeguarding. 50%? Magic numbers. Doc's grab range is pitiful, so good luck chaingrabbing and landing that dthrow to kobe on someone who doesn't get shieldgrabbed.

 

[Merkuri]

Yeah, and that is limited as f**K. She can't combo into any of those moves when her opponent are at high percents. Furthermore her Dsmash is hardly a viable kill move, with good DI any mid-weight character can survive it on FD upwards of 50%. Doc simply has far better options. He can actually combo into his killing moves, Samus can't. He can chain grab, Samus can't. All Samus can do better is recover better(her controlling space is arguably about the same as Doc due to how amazing his pils are); and as I said before killing and combo power > recovery any day(look at Falco)




There is some truth to this but saying theorizing smash is useless is simply wrong. I have incorporated a whole of stuff into my game by watching match on youtube, and as a result I was able to win my first tournament last week. You maybe not be able to incorporate smash theory into your game but not everyone is like you Kage. That being said you are right about fighting opponents consistently is better than theorizing about the game though.

sorry for the double post.

Crouch canceling, spacing, smart edgeguarding. 50%? Magic numbers. Doc's grab range is pitiful, so good luck chaingrabbing and landing that dthrow to kobe on someone who doesn't get shieldgrabbed.

Yeah and Samus has to space well(which I said before) and crouch cancel to get kills in, which is something very character can do. Her kill options as a character herself are limited, she is limited to essentially what all the cast can do and that is limited. Doc can crouch cancel and space effectively but still has other viable methods to kill, this is what seperates him from Samus. The last part of your post is just ignorant. Have you seen matches of HMW vs Cactuar or Shroomed vs PC Chris? Even the top player get chain grabbed(and by extension kobed) by doc, it's not something that's easily avoided.

 

[EC_Joey]

Yeah and Samus has to space well(which I said before) and crouch cancel to get kills in, which is something very character can do. Her kill options as a character herself are limited, she is limited to essentially what all the cast can do and that is limited. Doc can crouch cancel and space effectively but still has other viable methods to kill, this is what seperates him from Samus.

Other viable methods? You mean his lackluster combo potential?

The last part of your post is just ignorant. Have you seen matches of HMW vs Cactuar or Shroomed vs PC Chris? Even the top player get chain grabbed(and by extension kobed) by doc, it's not something that's easily avoided.

My point was that it's very hard to land the initial grab in the first place unless it arises from a tech read or poor DI since his grab range is very limited.

EDIT: I'm done. The way you talk it's like Doc has huge kill combo potential and grabs come as easily to him as Marth. Until we meet again!

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah its not easy for us docs. To get a grab on a fox, would be a miracle. Samus is just as good as Doc.

Doc has options. Samus has options. Merkuri, who do you main again?

Also, you say Samus has to space well? Her tilts are much better than doc's.

Doc definetly has to space very well also.

 

[Cactuar]

Yeah I feel bad for Doc mains.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah Fox is so fast. But I still do my best (and still isn't good enough yet).

 

[Merkuri]

Other viable methods? You mean his lackluster combo potential?

Actually I meant more his stronger smashes and set ups to finishes(in particular up throw to fair, and dthrow to Fsmash)

My point was that it's very hard to land the initial grab in the first place unless it arises from a tech read or poor DI since his grab range is very limited.

EDIT: I'm done. The way you talk it's like Doc has huge kill combo potential and grabs come as easily to him as Marth. Until we meet again!

And I'm saying that grabbing them isn't as hard as you say it is. I've never seen HMW or Shroomed play a match(even against the best players) without getting off a bunch of grabs(go watch the vids if you don't believe me) You're working off of theory too much, look at the practical side of the game and what actually happens in the match up.

Yeah its not easy for us docs. To get a grab on a fox, would be a miracle. Samus is just as good as Doc.

Doc has options. Samus has options. Merkuri, who do you main again?

Also, you say Samus has to space well? Her tilts are much better than doc's.

Doc definetly has to space very well also.

I hate to say it but the problem is your skill level and not the character himself. If you'd need a miracle to grab Fox then Cactuar and PC Chris wouldn't be getting grabbed over and over again by HMW and Shroomed.

I'm willing to give that Samus has slightly better tilts, although Doc's up tilt is amazing and I believe his down tilt has a whole bunch of untapped potential(it has an almost vertical reverse knock back)

I play Shiek and Peach.

 

[ranmaru]

Well some of his smashes aren't as long as we would like them to be. Only downsmash is the longest we have. We probably have stronger smashes because we can get killed a bit sooner than Samus.

Grabbing as doc compared to others grabbing us is hard. Not saying we don't get them, but against fox, its much harder due to his speed and small size. Marth? I try to grab, but miss, and then he grabs from where I MISSED and grabs me. ;-; So I misspaced, so its not that easy for us. Merkuri, I sure hope you are going to Apex. ;D

Don't tell me doc can outrun fox. But if we do get that grab, we'll have a field day.

 

[EC_Joey]

If you'd need a miracle to grab Fox then Cactuar and PC Chris wouldn't be getting grabbed over and over again by PC Chris and Shroomed.

I love it when PC grabs himself.

 

[ranmaru]

Actually I meant more his stronger smashes and set ups to finishes(in particular up throw to fair, and dthrow to Fsmash)




And I'm saying that grabbing them isn't as hard as you say it is. I've never seen HMW or Shroomed play a match(even against the best players) without getting off a bunch of grabs(go watch the vids if you don't believe me) You're working off of theory too much, look at the practical side of the game and what actually happens in the match up.



I hate to say it but the problem is your skill level and not the character himself. If you'd need a miracle to grab Fox then Cactuar and PC Chris wouldn't be getting grabbed over and over again by PC Chris and Shroomed.

I'm willing to give that Samus has slightly better tilts, although Doc's up tilt is amazing and I believe his down tilt has a whole bunch of untapped potential(it has an almost vertical reverse knock back)

I play Shiek and Peach.

Well yes skill does matter, skill matters with every character anyone uses. I like to use Doc's down-tilt at times because it can surprise someone, but remember it comes out slow. If we downtilt, we are asking the opponent to jump in the air instead.

Of course, my skill compared to cactuar isn't good yet, but I do practice and will hopefully reach that level someday. Skill is always someone's problem, isn't it? ;p

but of course, fox is fast and doc isn't. Hmw is really good. Of course I have gotten grabs myself, never said I didn't, I said it was hard. We as docs have to work much harder than higher tiers. We have less options that are as great as their options are, so we have to make sure EVERY area of things to cover, are covered and that we don't make ANY mistakes. Ask Hmw himself. Although I do need to watch the vids a bit more myself (I have watched them, but its hard to tell what is happening on my computer, its not that good ;_; )

 

[MarioMariox2]

Yeah I feel bad for Doc mains.

Here's my chance for a Mario main to make a quick "elitist" comment (lol).

Fox DDs, Mario Fsmashes. Mario: 1 Doc: 0

Lol. But yeah I'd go with trying to outprioritize at least SOME of Fox's stuff by dair-pproaching.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Your skill with whatever character you are playing is your current skill level.

lol wrong thread

 

[Blistering Speed]

This needs a bump.

Well, seeing as I haven't posted one in about a year:

Fox
Falco
Puff
Sheik
Marth

Peach
Falcon
Icies
*After this, doesnt particularly matter as no longer tournament viable unless you're really really really good e.g. HugS.*

 

[Merkuri]

This needs a bump.

Well, seeing as I haven't posted one in about a year:

Fox
Falco
Puff
Sheik
Marth

Peach
Falcon
Icies
*After this, doesnt particularly matter as no longer tournament viable unless you're really really really good e.g. HugS.*

I agree with this list completely except Ganon should be equal or slightly above ICs.

 

[TheManaLord]

More like

puff
falco
fox
sheik
marth
peach
falcon
ganon
ic
samus
doc

 

[Mahone]

More like

PUFF

....
*After this, doesnt particularly matter as no longer tournament viable unless you're really really really good e.g. HugS.*

 

[t3h Icy]

More like

puff
falco
fox
sheik
marth
peach
falcon
ganon
ic
samus
doc

lolno.....

 

[KAOSTAR]

These lists all suck, they dont even have all the characters on em lol.

How else are ppl gonna know who is in he game

 

[Merkuri]

These lists all suck, they dont even have all the characters on em lol.

How else are ppl gonna know who is in he game

After a certain point it becomes i relevant because the other characters are so bad that it doesn't matter who is better than who. I say the current tier list is.

Fox/Falco
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Doctor Mario
Samus
Luigi

I feel as if DK has the potential to be good enough to put on the list but someone needs to actually do something worthwhile with the character first(Bum was too long ago)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox
Sheik
Marth
Puff
Peach
Falco
Falcon
ICs
Ganon
Doc
Samus
Luigi
Zelda
Pikachu
DK
Mario

 

[john!]

i agree with merkuri's list

and the other chars... idk enough about them really...