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Official MBR Tier List

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Ryan-K

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this is stupid. roy does better against fox and maybe falco than zelda. who cares both characters suck but roy is actually fun :)

and why is this still being discussed. can we wait until something big at #4 happen, cuz like everything else thats being said in here is just nonsense by theorycrafters who like don't even know how to play.
 

john!

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and why is this still being discussed. can we wait until something big at #4 happen, cuz like everything else thats being said in here is just nonsense by theorycrafters who like don't even know how to play.
Yeah I agree with Sveet, talk to Cosmo if you want to know about Zelda and Roy. Also I hope a new list comes out after #4.
 

Pi

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Considering that if Samus touches Zelda's shield with basically anything, you get kicked in the face, and that Samus can crouch cancel basically everything Roy has.... I'd say Zelda is the better choice by far vs Samus.
I think I've heard you say something similar as far as shields go about every matchup in the game.
Can't touch falcons shield
can't touch luigi's shield

who's shield can I touch!!!

yoshi's!!!
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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I will restate my point, as one of if not the only Masterhand main, I believe he should be added to the tier list as he is a playable character and is not banned by the recommended tournament ruleset. He fits nicely under Pichu, my reasoning for his position are his Pros and Cons:

Pros
Cannot be grabbed.
Cannot be comboed.
Very high priority (Higher than Brinstar’s lava) on all attacks.
Very powerful attacks.
Has a lot of spikes and metor smashes.
Unaffected by Stale-Move Negation.
Doesn’t suffer from knockback.
Large range.
Attacks greatly pressure shield.
Floats above the ground, so many grounded attacks do not affect him, and small opponents are forced to jump to reach him.
Only has to kill the opponent once to win.
Unpredictable as not many people are used to playing against him.

Cons
All attacks are very predictable.
All attacks have significant starting and/or ending lag.
Most of his attacks don’t work well on some stages.
Cannot use any advanced techniques.
Cannot spotdodge, shield, roll or move to avoid opponent’s attacks.
Not many ways to edgeguard effectively.
Very large target.
Automatically loses due to stalling on Corneria and Princess Peach’s Castle.

His cons far outway his pros.

I recommend we have rulings like follows:
If a freeze is caused by Masterhand, the Masterhand player loses.
If 2 players both want to be Masterhand, then they can decide who gets it through a coin toss, rock paper scissors, etc...
I think we should make it so if a player is using Masterhand, then the other player cannot select Corneria or Peach's Castle (Similar to the ruling reggarding Saffron City and Ness in 64) to be fair.
We could make a limit on the number of tries the Masterhand player gets at performing the glitch. E.g. If you fail at getting the timing right 10 times you just have to use a normaly character.

Opinions?
WTF?

Adum brought this to my attention but I haven't logged in in forever so I just now got it; apparently I'm a couple hundred pages behind.

Again.....WTF?
 

RDK

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As for the current tier list, there's definitely something wrong with it, namely with the bottom tiers. IMO it should be something like this:

Top
Fox
Marth
^ Falco
V Sheik

High
Peach
Captain Falcon
^ Ice Climbers
V Jigglypuff

Middle
^ Dr. Mario 6.23
V Samus
^ Donkey Kong
Luigi
V Ganondorf
Mario

Low
Link
Pikachu
Young Link
Roy
Zelda
Game and Watch

Bottom
Ness
^ Bowser
Yoshi
Mewtwo
^ Pichu
V Kirby
If you think Kirby is better than Pichu, you're just wrong; it's a scientific fact.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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I disargee with puff being lower(no reason needed),DK being higher(WTF gannon is way better gannon can kill/edge gaurd better, better chain throw, better spaceing and etc.),ness should be much lower he isn't good as m2 or yoshi.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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if anything, it should be like this.

Top
Fox
^Sheik
vMarth
Falco

High
Peach
^Jigglypuff
vCaptain Falcon
Ice Climbers

Middle
Samus
^Ganondorf
vDr. Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Mario

Low
Link
Pikachu
Young Link
Roy
Zelda
Game and Watch

Bottom
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Mewtwo
Kirby
Pichu
no other changes are really applicable, and even these are debatable.
 

edgeluca

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I dunno.

My prediction is similar to this:

Top
1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Falco
4. Marth

High
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ganondorf
9. Samus

Middle
10. Ice Climbers
11. Doctor Mario
12. Mario
13. Luigi
14. Donkey Kong
15. Pikachu

Low
16. Link
17. Young Link
18. Roy
19. Mr. Game & Watch
20. Ness

Bottom
21. Yoshi
22. Zelda
23. Mewtwo
24. Bowser
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

But what do I know? :chuckle:
My opinion is probably totally wrong!
 

llamapaste

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Shiek will probably fall to the number four spot, Falco to number two, Puff at spot number five in top tier. Also there's no way Samus and Ganon go to high tier and Ice Climbers move down. Gannon and Samus are not of Ice Climber's, Falcon's, or Peaches's ability. And i'm not even going to talk about how much better Puff is compared to Samus and Gannon.
 

Ripple

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why does america not have any top sheik players anymore?
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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Ness should never he higher than anyone with a DJC or low tier. Ness has to many bad moves, gimpable as H***, lacks non-throw combos(really bad grabs), and very limited approach.
 

xbombr

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Ness should never he higher than anyone with a DJC or low tier. Ness has to many bad moves, gimpable as H***, lacks non-throw combos(really bad grabs), and very limited approach.
What?

Ness is pretty gimpable, but his recovery isn't THAT bad if you know what you're doing. It's actually got surprisingly long range.

Ness does not lack non-throw combos. His DAir, UTilt, properly spaced dash attack, and UAir chain together decently.

His grab range might be crap, but his backthrow is pretty good if you do get the grab.

His approach isn't really that limited either. DJC'ed aerials and a pretty well ranged dash attack make his approach a lot more reliable than some characters (Like Zelda) that are above him right now.

He's even got decent kills moves in his sweetspotted BAir and FSmash.

He's got bad range for sure, but if you play smart (or know how to use the YYG to get deathlines or thunder jackets lol) it's not that bad.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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How offen do people normally set-up the YYG? Ness all you have to do is projectile his up-B or ran right into it and sometimes shy guys do the job.

His most redeeming thing is his movement which other DJCs and pichu have too. His dair is pretty slow without amazing range. Uair is best set-up vs FFer from a grab otherwise yeah.
 

xbombr

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His recovery can be remedied by the method and angle you recover at. You can wrap the pk thunder around either side of him and still recover in the same directions. It just takes proper timing. Mixing it up can keep people from gimping you so easily.

I'm not sure how many people actually use the YYG since it's pretty hard to set up. I mostly just do it for fun when I use Ness in friendlies since not a whole lot of people know much about it or expect it. I was pretty much joking about that being a reliable method of extending his range, but I guess it is a possibility if you can catch people offgaurd. Not many people play Ness so it wouldn't be that hard I guess until people start catching on.

UAir can be set up from any of the moves I listed above. Up throw, dash attack, uptilt, another up air, and dair all set up for juggling non-floaties.

His DAir is pretty slow, but it's not the hard to land. Especially against people who tech in place.

His s****y recovery and low range turn a lot of people off of him, but he's not as bad as you made him out to be.
 

TresChikon

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Ness' recovery is worse than Falco's lol.

Length doesn't matter, what matters is the start-up time and that it's linear. And the start-up is outrageously horrible and leaves Ness super vulnerable.
 

xbombr

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Ness' recovery is worse than Falco's lol.

Length doesn't matter, what matters is the start-up time and that it's linear. And the start-up is outrageously horrible and leaves Ness super vulnerable.
The start up time isn't that much longer than a Firebird/Firefox and although Ness is more vulnerable during the start up, he's impossible to gimp once he actually PK thunders himself.

Fox and Falco get gimped out of their phantasms and firefox/birds all the time. Both of their recoveries are linear too.

I'm not saying Ness has a great, or even a decent recovery, but it's not so bad that it won't ever get you back to the stage.

His double jump has enough range to where you're not relying on PK thunder at really low %'s or something to where you get gimped at like <50% or something.
 

XIF

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The start up time isn't that much longer than a Firebird/Firefox and although Ness is more vulnerable during the start up, he's impossible to gimp once he actually PK thunders himself.

Fox and Falco get gimped out of their phantasms and firefox/birds all the time. Both of their recoveries are linear too.

I'm not saying Ness has a great, or even a decent recovery, but it's not so bad that it won't ever get you back to the stage.

His double jump has enough range to where you're not relying on PK thunder at really low %'s or something to where you get gimped at like <50% or something.
i... what... you...

I don't know why it is that the biggest lie that's perpetuated by the smash community is that fox and falco have bad recoveries. There's an argument for falco having a bad recovery simply because of range, but he has 9 viable angles with which he can recover to the stage with (straight up half-circling towards the stage to straight down). He also can switch between the fast side b to the slow up b, which radically changes your approach for an edge guard. Now with fox this just become infinitely better because of the fact it reaches for miles.

Fox has a great recovery. Ness has one of the 5 worst recoveries in the game.
 

xbombr

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i... what... you...

I don't know why it is that the biggest lie that's perpetuated by the smash community is that fox and falco have bad recoveries. There's an argument for falco having a bad recovery simply because of range, but he has 9 viable angles with which he can recover to the stage with (straight up half-circling towards the stage to straight down). He also can switch between the fast side b to the slow up b, which radically changes your approach for an edge guard. Now with fox this just become infinitely better because of the fact it reaches for miles.

Fox has a great recovery. Ness has one of the 5 worst recoveries in the game.
Ness does have a bad recovery. I never said it wasn't bad. lol

Besides, Ness can angle his recovery too. Of course that doesn't really matter since once he actually gets hit by his own PK thunder, he's invincible except for in one really small, next to impossible to hit spot.

The only differences are the start-up speed, variability (side b and up b), and ability to be gimped out of it. The start up speeds and variability make Fox/Falco better at recovering easily, but these are top tier characters, Ness is in the bottom of the craphole, but even his recovery does have some redeeming characteristics.
 

XIF

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There's also the fact that ness simply cannot sweet spot from certain angles because of his ******** recovery.

The ONLY redeeming quality is that once he does hit himself he is pretty much unstoppable (sometimes cape doesnt even turn him around). Other than that, it's categorically garbage.
 

x After Dawn x

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I agree with XIF

although I really think you're overrating falco's recovery, as it always boils down to a low priority side B or a short *** firebird with lag frames at the starting and no fire to protect it from edgeguarding
 

XIF

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as low priority as it is, there's never a guarantee that hitting him out of it hits him off as opposed to on the stage.

Obviously Falco's recovery is not that good at all, but it's ranked by most people at like Doc's level, which is simply absurd.
 

edgeluca

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I suck at predicting :chuckle:
I just want Ganon to go up for some reason
Samus actually should stay where she is prob.
 

MarioMariox2

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What?

Mario is pretty gimpable, but his recovery isn't THAT bad if you know what you're doing. It's actually got surprisingly long range.

Mario does not lack non-throw combos. His Dair-Dsmash, UTilt-Uair, and Uair-Fsmash chain together decently.

His grab range might be crap, but his back throw is pretty good if you do get the grab.

His approach isn't really that limited either. SHFFLed aerials and a pretty well ranged dash attack (only good at mid %) make his approach a lot more reliable than some characters (Like DK) that are above him right now.

He's even got decent kills moves in his edgeguard BAirs and FSmash.

He's got bad range for sure, but if you play smart (or know how to use the Fireballs to get Fireball spikes or even a grab lol) it's not that bad.
Proof that a certain argument also works for Mario :D
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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you're just angry because ness is higher than pichu on the tier list
By that logic should I be walking around saying for nroken tier, dude ness is vrap I didn't say pichu is better (I think is) but the point is m2 is better and so is yoshi I would argue yoshi is better in nearly everyway.

yoshi can recover better(you can't hit yoshi out of the sky and yoshi is way heavier so he isn't knocked off as much always)

yoshi has a better projectile simple as that he does, I believe he can even camp.

yoshi can combo with more than upair and has better edge gaurd he can throw eggs as he holds on to the edge.

yoshi has a better time getting kills due to combos, edge gaurd, fast moving smashes, and just more ways to kill.

yoshi can do better vs marth

yoshi lacks a useless move other than F and B throw

really the only thing ness really has better is sweetspot and throws.

That mario arguement fails
 

Crimson)S(hadow

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its stupid to have this as the "final" tier list, because since melee is still being played on a grand scale, the metagame for characters will inevitably shift still.

what if pokemon becomes as popular as it was in the 90s and everyone picks pikachu out of nostalgia when ash evolves his pikachu to a raichu? we might see pika in top tier then with everyone picking him, axe already proves pika can definately compete with top tier, and is potentially top tier material.

i'm not saying pika is good, and i'm not saying pika will somehow become more popular in the future then our beloved fox falco, i'm just saying that the future will definately bring changes in popularity of characters, in metagame of characters, and therefore the tier list
 

Brick_Top

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Popularity of a character won't/doesn't have any effect on tiers. As long as there's money on the line at tournaments , people will play to win.
 

St. Viers

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um, ash doesn't evolve his pikachu....in fact there's an episode about the subject =P

on topic: brick_top is correct. It's obvious that the top tier are much better than pikachu. If the game were newer, initial popularity might make pikachu higher because of people using him more and thus evolving his metagame faster, but at this point it won't happen, as there isn't anything new about him or the game...

except puff being top tier material
 

Brick_Top

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lol, I think he meant that if pokemon came back (even though it never died) and ash evolved pikachu. By now, I wouldn't be surprised if pikachu evolves like 10 times and ash is dead, or maybe ash evolved.

Anyways, even if there was a new tier list, I don't think there would be any drastic changes to it to even make it worth changing (like puff going from high to top, not really worth changing the tier list for. Besides, if one gets to move, then people will complain about others being moved. not worth it in my opinion). I feel like it's fine the way it is, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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