Official MBR Tier List

[KAOSTAR]

I want no part in killing ICG

 

[john!]

Think about it.

Pichu's advantages on Puff:
- Fast jerky movement, hard to space against
- Small and hard to hit with rest
- Fully charged skull bash punishes missed rests
- Can walljump for additional mindgames
- Powerful usmash for vertical kills
- Unpredictable recovery, hard to edgeguard
- Fast, effective taunt that can be canceled
- Light weight prevents comboing
- Projectile prevents edgecamping

Puff's advantages on Pichu:
- A smidge heavier
- Slightly better recovery

ichu: >

 

[Tamoo]

you forgot jigglypuff doesn't damage herself, but apart from that, the list looks about right

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

pichu can walljump????

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Really wish I could go but I will 100% make it to the one in IN. Also please don't tell me i'm high my eyes are just like that and I fail a lot of parent drug test because they don't know my eyes are just like that like 80% of the time. SO yeah please don't tell me i'm high because that's kindof an insult that my mindstate is being caused by drugs

puff can't land a rest and you really can duck under a few bairs.
plus the huge sheild helps.

but also she has more range and lives way longer, she has a way better recovery.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol @ taunt being a plus.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol @ that whole list.

I approve.

 

[victra♥]

lol that whole list is awesome.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

needs more thunder. also the best way to thunder puff if you knocked her way up is to do a running sh thunder a random way then the other random way if that hits. mostly does damage which is pretty cool.

Also I'm always glad to see victra a little after me, because it means i'm not banned yet.(gets banned)

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ppl know how to hit with thunder. Ppl also kno how not to get hit with it.

Pichu doesnt take damage if he is not at the epicenter of the thunder, is this correct?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yes and also there is less lag when you don't get hit you can combo(as in training mode combos) people with thunder if you don't get hit by it like fh over fox hit him and if your fast you could F-smash or grab or whathave you.

the random creates a wall and puff is going to di no matter she may go to the left of right it varies that's why I said random it can't hurt it makes a wall she can't cross and she isn't close at that time being.

aren't epicenters only earthquake related? Or can it work work with other things only?

 

[Fletch]

aren't epicenters only earthquake related? Or can it work work with other things only?

Usually they are earthquake-related, but they can refer to any central point in various scenarios /nerd talk.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

is it only earth related? Like could I say the epicenter of a bullet is your face or something?

 

[Tamoo]

the epicenter of a bullet cannot be your face >.>

 

[Fletch]

Ha no... An example would be that Ground Zero was the epicenter of the 9/11 attacks.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Like where the pane hit right(just checking don't want to look dumber)? But the next topic should be link because it only makes senses.

 

[KAOSTAR]

All you guys got out of that was the definition and uses of the word epicenter? LOl

What about the damage?

 

[St. Viers]

ICG said that you don't take damage

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

just epicenter is 13%
inv. hit is 4% max hits 4
all together max 29% if you hop in place

if it hits you it makes the hitbox bigger.

also it beats or slows the following projectiles
bombs,needles, arrows anything esle will just fly thought it.

Don't qoute me but I believe pikachu's can hit only once and does at max like 17% or 14% with more knockback and does much less sheild damage

really pichu's thunder does a lot of sheild damage it won't break a fresh sheild maybe if it's a 1/3 decayed or half.

pichu can combo with his thunder really but he can't be the epicenter due to the lag. full hop di left a little and thunder fox and you can combo(in training mode) into F-smash or whatever if your fast enough.

if you midair thunder roy useing his up-B it's the coolest thing ever.

you fall faster when youing thunder(so i've heard and seems I haven't tested) making it an amazing move to use to defend yourself when high up in the air, it creates a wall that they cann't pass and you fall down safely alos many times people will run into it which is really sweet if they are fox because it's legit to quickly nair them once they get out of the thunder. Also it's not the safest thing to use the refletor or shine on.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I never thought of pichus thunder being of much effect compared to pikachus. didnt know it did so much shield damage

WIth pikachu I sometimes tech chase with it if they land on a platform. Ususally on dreamland.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Pikachu's has more knockback and hits them sideways pichu's is for damage and protection when falling drop to avoid an up-air, it rarly kills but it's really sweet when it does.

I would say pikachu's is better.

Yeah I was just thinking about tech chaseing pichu is highly untapped so I try many crazy ideas many people wouldn't think of like trying to duck under get-up attacks.

 

[xbombr]

To be completely honest. I think that Pichu being below Kirby is ridiculous.

 

[Aesir]

To be completely honest. I think that a gerbils IQ listed below yours is ridiculous.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

Wow, I just realized how good this list is in terms of top tiers and high tiers. Great job to whoever finalized it.
I do think that there will be some change in the bottom-mid tier sections, but that's only expected as new techniques and usage for techniques are discovered. But overall, great job.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Overall the list is pretty close the biggest change for one person might be 3 places. Also I think they should put ice climbers Down-smash on the list really as a move it is better than everyone in the bottom and a few low tiers.

That one freaking move is uber fast, disjointed, can chain throw, egde gaurd, kill,lasts longer than most smashes, hard to punish like sheild grab or CC,very little lag, you even duck when useing it to avoid attacks, rack up a lot of damage really fast, punish really hard, it is a combo in it's self, great for tech chasing and it's the perfect wavesmash attack. And it's the sexiest move ever really you can moowalk farther than falcon into it. I don't understand why this move is at least called mid tier. Really I wish I could main it.

Oh the only falw I know about is it is possible to sdi out of due to it being 2 hits(i've done it before but being prepared) however it may cause less damage but it would then do a little more knockback sssoooooo yeah.

 

[sswizzbbeatss]

I used to think kirby was good long time ago lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wow I knew kirby sucked right when I first played. But I also thought link was uber broken so yeah.
STill DOwn-smash is sooooo .. down-smashly better than sexy.

 

[xbombr]

To be completely honest. I think that a gerbils IQ listed below yours is ridiculous.

Why thank you for adding to the conversation, kind sir. I do believe that there is a flaw in my thinking, as your logic is irrefutable. I believe I should now take back what I said since there is obviously an error in my thinking.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well you didnt have to say it twice.

I think pichu is better than kirby. but I think kirby handles FF matchups better.

 

[Silent Wolf]

kirby is much better than pichu
you dont know enough about them to have a valid input lol

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Jiggs it top tier. nuff said.

 

[x After Dawn x]

like 90 % of people who say jiggs is top tier argue it for the same reason I could say peach is top tier

there's 1 person (hungrybox for puff, armada for peach) who does well at top level using that character

mango doesn't count because he beats everybody using other characters as well, which proves it's his individual skill rather than his character

 

[Mew2King]

who cares and guess what I'm the only marth in the top 32 at genesis while there was FOUR Jiggs in the top 9 or top 13 at Genesis and 3 Jiggs int he top 5 at Rom2 with like 150 people or something. Jiggs isn't just top tier she's top TWO in the game. Jiggs and spacies are the best and Fox is best if played perfectly but on a realistic level Jiggs is the best and she takes top 2 at almost everything. Yes they are obviously really good with the character but guess what I try really hard with my character too and I'm arguably the best marth/sheik and I still don't do as good as them. If you guys really are going to say jiggs is not that good because she's not that popular then you are all crazy.

POPULARITY DOES NOT DETERMINE HOW GOOD A CHARACTER IS

 

[KAOSTAR]

Except jiggz are consistently winning tourneys.

armada got second, once!

@afterdawn. m2k stole my cookies

 

[Reioumu]

Except jiggz are consistently winning tourneys.

armada got second, once!

@afterdawn. m2k stole my cookies

It's not just jiggz, it's Mango, and Hungrybox... Not every jiggs.

People need to stop crying on how they're getting outplayed. If you think she's so good and unbeatable, go play her yourself. It's sounding just like brawl + Metaknight :/

 

[x After Dawn x]

It's not just jiggz, it's Mango, and Hungrybox... Not every jiggs.

People need to stop crying on how they're getting outplayed. If you think she's so good and unbeatable, go play her yourself. It's sounding just like brawl + Metaknight :/

pretty much this.

and m2k, popularity not determining how good a character is is exactly what I'm saying. =/

character potential matters much more overall. I just wish people would debate that instead of tourney results.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the top level of play has been determined by the ability to beat fox/falco for a few years now. Hbox and mango simply abuse ways to force mistakes onto them, which is probably the best way. If you could think on their level and predict what is coming you can avoid most mistakes, the problem is hbox and mango are very good and its hard to predict what they will do and its still hard even when you can

 

[KAOSTAR]

pretty much this.

and m2k, popularity not determining how good a character is is exactly what I'm saying. =/

character potential matters much more overall. I just wish people would debate that instead of tourney results.

I think m2k means the opposite of what you are saying. He is saying jiggz has mad potential. The basics of smash are dont get hit, while still hitting your opponent.

With soooo much horizonal control while in the air, Jiggz prob has an advantage when it comes to spacing. On top of that, an unparalleled recovery. On top of that, jiggz can combo into an ultra powerful move thats pretty much a kill. and WoP everyone else.

Just because there are only two ppl who have figured it out, doesnt mean jiggz isnt top tier. Hence her being unpopular but still actually one of the best.

I think thats what m2k is saying, I could be wrong tho since I didnt ask him myself.

Also, I think its armadas skill in combination with peach being pretty good, that makes him successful. Hbox is just a jiggz master.

You cant rule mango out because when you think about it, he mains jiggs for a reason. He is good enough with alot of characters but he still mains jiggz when **** gets crazy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think puff is good, but high tier is good.

You have to do slightly more work with puff (as far as predicting and taking risks for rewards) than you do with other top tiers. I think you have to do more work with puff than peach.

Peach has inescapable edge traps in the form of float cancels and great approaches in the form of turnips and spaced fairs. She also has an incredible punish game with nair OoS having enough range and speed to break nearly any shield pressure and a dsmash that can punish many approaches and destroys shields. She has arguably the 2nd best recovery with only slightly less options than puff but she is also heavier and lives longer. Overall i'd rather have a fox or falco hit my shield than a peach simply because peach has no lag from her aerials and many strong mixups that are basically unpunishable.

So puff has a ohko... its a tiny hitbox that takes a lot of hard work to hit. It can be comboed into, but it only kills ~50% earlier than other kills moves that can be comboed into (and with characters that build percent faster/better). U can uthrow->rest to kill fox with puff at 0% or marth can dthrow->dtilt->upb gimp and kill fox at 0%. Its all the same. Not to mention you are asleep for 3 seconds which gives them a free hit on you even after they die and have to respawn (although not a charged hit). Against fox you an uthrow rest them while you're at 45% and they can come back dair->grab->uthrow->uair kill you on pretty much any stage.

I know puff is really good and mango and hbox make them look unbeatable, and they are very tournament viable in today's metagame, but when i look at how the metagame has evolved overall i see that the tier list hasn't really changed as far as ordering even though all the top tiers have grown to be better than before.

 

[Winston]

like 90 % of people who say jiggs is top tier argue it for the same reason I could say peach is top tier

there's 1 person (hungrybox for puff, armada for peach) who does well at top level using that character

mango doesn't count because he beats everybody using other characters as well, which proves it's his individual skill rather than his character

and yet Armada could not beat Amsah in NTSC, whereas Hbox did.

Also, Mango was forced to go Jigglypuff vs Hungrybox at Pound. I'm sure he would have played Fox or Falco if he was confident he could win with them. You basically are implying that Mango is the best player in the world, and he went Jiggs instead of fox against the second best Jiggs.

Sure, it was only one tournament, but it does say something. My main argument would be this:

Looking at it from the angle of matchups, Jiggs beats Peach by a large margin also. I think it's pretty clear by now that the only disadvantaged matchup Jiggs has is Fox, and Fox has to be playing extremely well for that to be the case. Peach, on the other hand, is definitely at a disadvantage vs Fox, Sheik, and Marth at least.

I think puff is good, but high tier is good.

You have to do slightly more work with puff (as far as predicting and taking risks for rewards) than you do with other top tiers. I think you have to do more work with puff than peach.

Peach has inescapable edge traps in the form of float cancels and great approaches in the form of turnips and spaced fairs. She also has an incredible punish game with nair OoS having enough range and speed to break nearly any shield pressure and a dsmash that can punish many approaches and destroys shields. She has arguably the 2nd best recovery with only slightly less options than puff but she is also heavier and lives longer. Overall i'd rather have a fox or falco hit my shield than a peach simply because peach has no lag from her aerials and many strong mixups that are basically unpunishable.

So puff has a ohko... its a tiny hitbox that takes a lot of hard work to hit. It can be comboed into, but it only kills ~50% earlier than other kills moves that can be comboed into (and with characters that build percent faster/better). U can uthrow->rest to kill fox with puff at 0% or marth can dthrow->dtilt->upb gimp and kill fox at 0%. Its all the same. Not to mention you are asleep for 3 seconds which gives them a free hit on you even after they die and have to respawn (although not a charged hit). Against fox you an uthrow rest them while you're at 45% and they can come back dair->grab->uthrow->uair kill you on pretty much any stage.

I know puff is really good and mango and hbox make them look unbeatable, and they are very tournament viable in today's metagame, but when i look at how the metagame has evolved overall i see that the tier list hasn't really changed as far as ordering even though all the top tiers have grown to be better than before.

I think this is an incredibly inaccurate look at Jiggs' strengths as a character. Looking at how the matches play out between the top players, it seems clear that Jiggs' ability to punish is very very very disproportionately large compared to other character's ability to punish her.

Nobody can combo Jiggs beyond 2-3 weak hits, and nobody can edgeguard or KO Jiggs reliably. Fox is the best at it, but even his ko setup (grab -> uair) is not guaranteed to work.

On the flipside, any of the top tiers off the stage vs Jiggs is basically dead. Miss a DI on a move like uptilt, uair, uthrow and you're dead. Miss a tech as a fastfaller, jab, and dead. Miss a DI on a backair as a floaty and you eat two more hits and you're off the stage and probably dead. There are a dozen other rest/gimp traps that you are probably familiar with if you watch enough Hbox videos.

Really the simplest and strongest argument for Jiggs being top tier is that she either has either one or zero bad matchups, though. With what we currently know about the game, I don't think you can make a good case against that.