Official MBR Tier List

[KAOSTAR]

I think puff is good, but high tier is good.

You have to do slightly more work with puff (as far as predicting and taking risks for rewards) than you do with other top tiers. I think you have to do more work with puff than peach.

I think you simply wait for ppl to make mistakes. You can throw out bairs, and no other character can recover from too much DI in one direction as well as puff. Puff can go in and out of hit range more frequently and easily due to massive aerial DI. I dont think it takes more work/risk, just patience and the ability to read.

Peach has inescapable edge traps in the form of float cancels and great approaches in the form of turnips and spaced fairs. She also has an incredible punish game with nair OoS having enough range and speed to break nearly any shield pressure and a dsmash that can punish many approaches and destroys shields. She has arguably the 2nd best recovery with only slightly less options than puff but she is also heavier and lives longer. Overall i'd rather have a fox or falco hit my shield than a peach simply because peach has no lag from her aerials and many strong mixups that are basically unpunishable.

Turnips are not amazing for approaches, they are just annoying. They definitely help in her approach but its nowhere near amazing.

Peach has no vertical, when she is hit high up she will usually just float back to the stage. when she is hit low, that umbrella just doesnt have enough distance to get you back to the ledge. I would argue that m2 has a better recovery than peach. He can float back when hit high, his second jump has the most vertical of any second jump and hit teleport has range and partial invisibility and invulnerability.

When you say no lag, I assume you mean landing lag, I also assume you mean when peach floats and doesnt land. If not she still has to djc or float cancel which are 1/2 and 1/4 respectively of normal lag.

Jiggz can punish much harder with rest, depending on what move is used it can also be used out of shield. On the norm, a single hit can lead into a WoP on pretty much anybody starting at lower middle percents. If thats not a hard punish I dont know what is. Do you not understand that getting hit once can somehow lead to your death. Very few characters have that potential in such as wide variety of circumstances.

So puff has a ohko... its a tiny hitbox that takes a lot of hard work to hit. It can be comboed into, but it only kills ~50% earlier than other kills moves that can be comboed into (and with characters that build percent faster/better). U can uthrow->rest to kill fox with puff at 0% or marth can dthrow->dtilt->upb gimp and kill fox at 0%. Its all the same. Not to mention you are asleep for 3 seconds which gives them a free hit on you even after they die and have to respawn (although not a charged hit). Against fox you an uthrow rest them while you're at 45% and they can come back dair->grab->uthrow->uair kill you on pretty much any stage.

A one hit KO is very different than a combo that may or may not work. Rest can miss because the hitbox is small, yess, but it is only 1 frame. All you need to do is overlap those hitboxes and press the button. Jiggz has a rail gun with no beam. When you say upB I assume you mean a reverse on the firefox to gimp fox. Thats not guaranteed at any point.You can get the Dthrow and not the dtilt, you can get the dtilt and not the upb. Upthrow rest from 0 is guaranteed dependent one only 1 variable. If they Hold left or right. 1 free hit may not be enough. You only asleep for 3 seconds, if you hit the rest, they spend most of that time dying. If they die off the top, you will not be punished.

Also note that you can rest every character, and combo into it with uptilts, thunders from grab, fairs, pounds, and uair depending on the DI.

What if the smash out of the drill? what if they smash out of your uair?

I know puff is really good and mango and hbox make them look unbeatable, and they are very tournament viable in today's metagame, but when i look at how the metagame has evolved overall i see that the tier list hasn't really changed as far as ordering even though all the top tiers have grown to be better than before.

Its not like the tier list was constantly updated. The point is that ppl are arguing for the tier list to be changed. Also, I dont think that characters get worse, they kinda are how they are when the game comes out. Ppl just have to learn more things about them, so every character should stay the same at minimum.

It's not just jiggz, it's Mango, and Hungrybox... Not every jiggs.

People need to stop crying on how they're getting outplayed. If you think she's so good and unbeatable, go play her yourself. It's sounding just like brawl + Metaknight :/

Well, at minimum m2k had a rant about him playing her and ****** a jiggz player. He was talking about her being easy to use etc. You have 0 evidence to support the contrary.

Also, when has every player of one character ever done anything in smash melee(MK lol) history. I dont recall all the marths sheiks foxes or falcos ever winning, placing, losing, playing brawl all at the same time.

I guess u could probably argue that if jiggz(Mango, Hbox) are winning, then all the foxes are losing?
*shrug*

Edit: Ur full of ****

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think you simply wait for ppl to make mistakes. You can throw out bairs, and no other character can recover from too much DI in one direction as well as puff. Puff can go in and out of hit range more frequently and easily due to massive aerial DI. I dont think it takes more work/risk, just patience and the ability to read.

yup thats all pretty good. nothing out of the ordinary for a top 10 character

Turnips are not amazing for approaches, they are just annoying. They definitely help in her approach but its nowhere near amazing.

really? have you played any good peaches? turnips combo directly into aerials.

Peach has no vertical, when she is hit high up she will usually just float back to the stage. when she is hit low, that umbrella just doesnt have enough distance to get you back to the ledge. I would argue that m2 has a better recovery than peach. He can float back when hit high, his second jump has the most vertical of any second jump and hit teleport has range and partial invisibility and invulnerability.

sorry, i meant to say 2nd best recovery of characters that actually matter.

When you say no lag, I assume you mean landing lag, I also assume you mean when peach floats and doesnt land. If not she still has to djc or float cancel which are 1/2 and 1/4 respectively of normal lag.

sorry mr. technical. yes, there is exactly 4 frames of lag for a float cancel. same as fox's upb and the same as landing on the ground without doing any move. Its the same this as no lag to me.

Jiggz can punish much harder with rest, depending on what move is used it can also be used out of shield.

yeah and falco can kill anyone off the top of dreamland at 10% too. too bad both rarely happen at high level play.

On the norm, a single hit can lead into a WoP on pretty much anybody starting at lower middle percents.

if by WoP you mean bair->bair combos, that only works if they are ******** and DI the bair into you during combo percentages.

If thats not a hard punish I dont know what is.

Idk... a grab that leads to death or a single frame move that auto combos into kill moves and combo moves and smashes and aerials and itself. Also, ganon hits harder in single repeated hits than puff does.

Do you not understand that getting hit once can somehow lead to your death. Very few characters have that potential in such as wide variety of circumstances.

really? because i was under the impression that everyone in high and top tier can already do that.

A one hit KO is very different than a combo that may or may not work.

you're right, combos always work huh...

Rest can miss because the hitbox is small, yess, but it is only 1 frame. All you need to do is overlap those hitboxes and press the button. Jiggz has a rail gun with no beam.

And how do you get that close to someone without them fighting back? You're talking about a slow character that relies on keeping people away and then suddenly being able to hit with a move that is smaller than her hurtbox... Its definitely not something that only comes from precise setups that can be escaped.

When you say upB I assume you mean a reverse on the firefox to gimp fox. Thats not guaranteed at any point.You can get the Dthrow and not the dtilt, you can get the dtilt and not the upb. Upthrow rest from 0 is guaranteed dependent one only 1 variable. If they Hold left or right.

Really? Because i consider dthrow->dtilt->upb much more reliable. They have 3 options, recover with their jump to the edge (safest; covered by dtilt) or recover with sideb (covered by dtilt or jab or grab->dthrow->repeat if they go above you) or recover with upb (stupid easy to cover).

uthrow->rest is "guaranteed" as long as they don't do something relitively simple to prevent it. dthrow->**** is guaranteed no matter what option they decide to take. Thats the strength of a real top tier.

1 free hit may not be enough. You only asleep for 3 seconds, if you hit the rest, they spend most of that time dying. If they die off the top, you will not be punished.

novice mistake.......................................

Also note that you can rest every character, and combo into it with uptilts, thunders from grab, fairs, pounds, and uair depending on the DI.

WOAH DUUUUUUUDE ALL THEY GOTTA DOOOOOOOOO ISSSSSSSSS GIVE IT TOOOOOO YAAAAAAA

What if the smash out of the drill? what if they smash out of your uair?

what if they learn to hold the stick away and not fall into any of your rest combos?

Its not like the tier list was constantly updated. The point is that ppl are arguing for the tier list to be changed. Also, I dont think that characters get worse, they kinda are how they are when the game comes out. Ppl just have to learn more things about them, so every character should stay the same at minimum.

what? who cares what "people" say. i read a thousand idiotic posts a day here at smashboards and some people think that because a number of people believe something is true that it must be valid.

Well, at minimum m2k had a rant about him playing her and ****** a jiggz player. He was talking about her being easy to use etc. You have 0 evidence to support the contrary.

Also, when has every player of one character ever done anything in smash melee(MK lol) history. I dont recall all the marths sheiks foxes or falcos ever winning, placing, losing, playing brawl all at the same time.

I guess u could probably argue that if jiggz(Mango, Hbox) are winning, then all the foxes are losing?
*shrug*

Edit: Ur full of ****

none of this has any logical value and i'm not even sure if you understand the arguments you're trying to use, such as backing m2k's post.





Bonus:

Quick lesson on combos: except for a few, all of them are escapable in one way or another. What is better than combos is leaving your opponent with no valid options. The difference between fox/marth and falco/puff/peach is the difference between leaving a maximum 1 option and leaving 2-3 options. Just because the best players make very good decisions on the options they cover doesn't mean what they are doing is easy or infailable.

Math puff is pretty **** good, but math marth and math fox are a LOT more dangerous.

 

[john!]

Just want to say that I don't think Rest has been fully utilized by the top pros. A single missed OR read tech can lead into rest, but Mango doesn't bother and Hbox plays too safely.

Also, dodging turnip approaches is the easiest thing in the world. You seem to perennially overestimate Peach...

And I don't know what you saw in combo videos, but 1 grab does not always lead to death combos. If Marth gets a grab on Fox at low percent on any stage, it leads to death easily less than half the time. People are getting good at escaping combos. Puff is the only character who can instant kill at such low percents.

 

[xbombr]

you dont know enough about them to have a valid input lol

While I tend to agree that I didn't bother taking the time to learn either Pichu or Kirby because both are totally terrible, I was thinking more in terms of ability and potential. I also don't think there are many Pichus or Kirbys out there that are actually at the metagame level.

Pichu's biggest downfall is hurting itself. Keep in mind that not every move hurts you and it's usually only a few % anyway if you do choose to use one of those moves.

In terms of an approach, Pichu can cover itself with a SH or FH nuetral B to make up for a lack of range and help it get inside. Kirby doesn't have anything that helps him approach and WD back ruins pretty much everything if Kirby commits himself.

In terms of recovery, Pichu can recover from very long distances and isn't very easy to gimp. Kirby has 5 jumps, sure, but he lacks the aerial mobility and a good supplementary recovery move (such as jiggs pound) to help him get back from being knocked out of one of his double jumps.

Pichu has a chaingrab on fast fallers and gets around the stage pretty well. While Kirby doesn't really have that either.

I dunno. I see a number of advantages that Pichu has over Kirby. If you can overlook hurting yourself, then I then I think Pichu is probably easier to win with if you know what you're doing.

 

[Devil Ray]

puff needs to banned. seriously, no joke.

 

[Tamoo]

While I tend to agree that I didn't bother taking the time to learn either Pichu or Kirby because both are totally terrible, I was thinking more in terms of ability and potential. I also don't think there are many Pichus or Kirbys out there that are actually at the metagame level.

Pichu's biggest downfall is hurting itself. Keep in mind that not every move hurts you and it's usually only a few % anyway if you do choose to use one of those moves.

In terms of an approach, Pichu can cover itself with a SH or FH nuetral B to make up for a lack of range and help it get inside. Kirby doesn't have anything that helps him approach and WD back ruins pretty much everything if Kirby commits himself.

In terms of recovery, Pichu can recover from very long distances and isn't very easy to gimp. Kirby has 5 jumps, sure, but he lacks the aerial mobility and a good supplementary recovery move (such as jiggs pound) to help him get back from being knocked out of one of his double jumps.

Pichu has a chaingrab on fast fallers and gets around the stage pretty well. While Kirby doesn't really have that either.

I dunno. I see a number of advantages that Pichu has over Kirby. If you can overlook hurting yourself, then I then I think Pichu is probably easier to win with if you know what you're doing.

You lose ALL credibility in any of your arguments as soon as you say pichu's biggest downfall is self harm. Sorry but you clearly don't know enough about pichu to make any valid well backed up points if you think that this is his single biggest weakness.

And Sveet providing the ****, kaostar must be feeling pretty violated right about now

 

[xbombr]

You lose ALL credibility in any of your arguments as soon as you say pichu's biggest downfall is self harm. Sorry but you clearly don't know enough about pichu to make any valid well backed up points if you think that this is his single biggest weakness.

And Sveet providing the ****, kaostar must be feeling pretty violated right about now

I was speaking in comparison to Kirby. (Obviously poor wording) Pichu obviously has a ton of weaknesses. :\

Weight, range, self harm, damage, ect.

I'm not saying that Pichu's biggest downfall in general is the self-harm. Although when you couple that with his weight, then it's a pretty big deal.

Maybe he's not better than Kirby overall due to his weaknesses, but I think Pichu has a lot more potential than he's given credit for.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@sveet. Bull****!

Pm me if you care enough for my actual response. Looking back, this argument was pointless in that neither of us stated what we were arguing for.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Edit:

This is what the "puff is top tier" thread was for.

 

[X1-12]

to be fair there is a leetle bit of arrogance floating around...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

WTF pichu's only major flaws are takeing hits and range. Kirby can tech chase FFer like pichu can dude you really lack info. It's better me and KK argue which we have stopped for now.

Really your not even hitting on the important things. Pichu has amazing movement for that alone he is better than kirby. THat's the number one reason.

 

[xbombr]

WTF pichu's only major flaws are takeing hits and range. Kirby can tech chase FFer like pichu can dude you really lack info. It's better me and KK argue which we have stopped for now.

Really your not even hitting on the important things. Pichu has amazing movement for that alone he is better than kirby. THat's the number one reason.

I'm on your side?

If that's directed at me I mentioned his movement > Kirby's. :embarrass

I don't think it's the number one reason he's better though.

I'm just trying to start a discussion. We have no bearing on what the tier list looks like anyway and I'm pretty doubtful they're going to change it with it being final and all.

 

[Tamoo]

No, he's on your side, I just don't think you quite understand just how insignificant pichu hurting himself is. Like, it's an inconvenience at most, that you shouldn't really be thinking about too much apart from moderating how much you pummel in grabs.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced that pichu is better than kirby, it's easy to play pichu and kirby momentarily and come out of it thinking that pichu is much better simply because he is much easier to use imo. Kirby is played fairly unconventionally compared to pichu.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pICHU IS better I argee however I felt your missing some really important facts like if a noob says fox is better than bowser he is right but doesn't fully understand why and isn't going to argue as way as needed to prove it really If I knew all the good things about bowser I could easily prove that bowser is better.

Why is pichu better besides his movement? What's his number one reason? the self damage also plays a very small role anymore most people 100% stay away or use his self-damageing moves logicly and make sure they land.

The kirby arguement is normally about range and kirby's spaceing which isn't really good, but better than pichu's.

Always reseach before you argue it always helps.

Why I said movement is huge is because pichu really becomes smallerwhen he is moveing. if he is in the full run stae he can ran right under samus's missles. Pichu becomes very hard to hit and it's near impossible to hit him with many moves that would work with other people i've ducked under incomeing air attacks before pichu is low enough to sometimes.

this hard to hit state added with his hardto predict nature makes his DD very good plus pichu has a sercet movement that no one esle in the game has. His up-B Can be used to slip in and attack from any direction. he can be on the ground and up-b laglessly to them(perfect up-B fairly hard) he can jump up in the air and bait people to attack while he quickly slips under them and easily outrange evveryone but roy and marth with his up-air.

Really he has more defense than just his amazing movement. he has the best sheild in the game(not counting yoshi that could go back and forward) he has the best sheild to body ratio makeing him the easiest to powersheild with in the game(not counting people who duck and powersheild) and the hardest to sheild stab. and his up-smash can beat many low ranged attacks like falcon's dair.














taboo your a lost cause lol.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

who cares and guess what I'm the only marth in the top 32 at genesis while there was FOUR Jiggs in the top 9 or top 13 at Genesis and 3 Jiggs int he top 5 at Rom2 with like 150 people or something. Jiggs isn't just top tier she's top TWO in the game. Jiggs and spacies are the best and Fox is best if played perfectly but on a realistic level Jiggs is the best and she takes top 2 at almost everything. Yes they are obviously really good with the character but guess what I try really hard with my character too and I'm arguably the best marth/sheik and I still don't do as good as them. If you guys really are going to say jiggs is not that good because she's not that popular then you are all crazy.

POPULARITY DOES NOT DETERMINE HOW GOOD A CHARACTER IS

Pretty much. We've seen it so much now I'm surprised the changes haven't been made. I main falcon and i know well enough that he does NOT have the same capabilities that Jiggs does. Yet they are currently tied on the Tier list at 8.00. What a ****ing joke. Jiggs has won like the last dozen or so tournaments save mango who occasionally wins with something else because he is amazing and Jiggs is STILL tied for ...6th? LMFAO

Whens the last time Captian Falcon won a tournament? Hmmm, lets go back to 2005 when Isai still played and occasionally won because people sucked. Lets fast forward to OCCASIONAL top 3 placings from SS/darkrain at semi-huge tournaments.

Jiggs and falcon tied? What a ****ing joke. Jiggs IS top tier. I agree completely with M2K.

 

[xbombr]

Why is pichu better besides his movement? What's his number one reason?

Well movement plays into what I consider the number 1 reason.

Pichu has tools that allow him to approach grounded enemies while Kirby does not against anyone with a decent WD back or more range. Almost every character has one of those two even amongst low tiers.

Approaching with nuetral b is like approaching with a single really crappy laser, but it can help you get the job done. Anything that can force them to shield or commit to a certain action is something that can help you approach or force something punishable.

That's the number one reason in my book since having a way to approach or force mistakes is probably one of the most major factors in what makes one character better than another.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Whens the last time Captian Falcon won a tournament? Hmmm, lets go back to 2005 when Isai still played and occasionally won because people sucked. Lets fast forward to OCCASIONAL top 3 placings from SS/darkrain at semi-huge tournaments.

uh there was saffron city or whatever it was called a couple months ago. I believe it was hax who got 1st.

but I get what you're saying.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i believe PC and Azen have both won tournament grand finals (of majors) using falcon

 

[x After Dawn x]

yup. I remember watching azen beat chu in an MLG a few years back using falcon.

regardless, falcon isn't a terribad character, he's just not as good as jigglypuff (obviously).

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm just trying to start a discussion. We have no bearing on what the tier list looks like anyway and I'm pretty doubtful they're going to change it with it being final and all.

Some ppl do actually have valid opinions. I dont think that this one is final. It was posted right b4 melee exploded.

 

[St. Viers]

are there any pound 4 vids of mango/hungrybox against marth?

I still don't see how puff wins that matchup (on paper)

 

[MarioMariox2]

SS wins bi-weeklies and smashfests often. Does that count?

 

[xbombr]

I still don't see how puff wins that matchup (on paper)

Basically if both parties are playing the match up correctly no one gets hit for the entire 8 minutes while Marth does FAir and NAir to keep Jiggs from getting in and Jiggs does BAir just outside of range waiting for Marth to screw up his spacing or throw out a laggy move.

Marth and Puff when they both know the match up is really boring, imo. Marth's best offense in the match is his defense and Puff's in the exact same boat. They basically just camp about a sword and a quarter's length away from each other hoping for the other to try to rush in and mess up their spacing. :\

Jiggs doesn't really win by a large amount on paper, as on paper it's relatively even. Marth will probably lose slightly more since he's much easier for jiggs to punish than the other way around.

In practice, the more patient one that screws up less will win....just like in any match.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0&feature=related
Although it's a couple years old seems pretty accurate to what I'm saying.

 

[victra♥]

freaking SS used to dominate WC for a long time with falcon didn't he?

Personally, I don't get how Falcon can do so good unless the player is like...psychic or something.

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ you just gotta be good with him like every other character. you wouldn't know cause your falcon sucks. =)

 

[Sasha]

freaking SS used to dominate WC for a long time with falcon didn't he?

Personally, I don't get how Falcon can do so good unless the player is like...psychic or something.

Hmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxgk2NfqOoM

Interesting how that works.

 

[KAOSTAR]

freaking SS used to dominate WC for a long time with falcon didn't he?

Personally, I don't get how Falcon can do so good unless the player is like...psychic or something.

irrelevant! m2 is psychic and he is terribad lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Darkrain is only limited in combos because the stage needs to be bigger go to HRC and he can combo you more than fox waveshineing you against a wall.

no I think m2 just looks to far into the future like he sees himself getting kneed grabed nair knee or something and he thinkswow I better watch out for that(gets kneed) knee Falcon is mindreading when he is DDing around the world m2 can't

 

[The Good Doctor]

Darkrain is only limited in combos because the stage needs to be bigger go to HRC and he can combo you more than fox waveshineing you against a wall.

no I think m2 just looks to far into the future like he sees himself getting kneed grabed nair knee or something and he thinkswow I better watch out for that(gets kneed) knee Falcon is mindreading when he is DDing around the world m2 can't

You sir, have an overactive imagination....

 

[x After Dawn x]

He's always like that. That's why there's an ignore button. >_>

jk though, I don't have you ignored but your posts seriously are irrelevant or make no sense, ICG.

 

[Jim Morrison]

He's always like that. That's why there's an ignore button. >_>

jk though, I don't have you ignored but your posts seriously are irrelevant or make no sense, ICG.

Just because he plays Pichu...

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, it doesn't have to do with that. They just don't make sense or go extremely offtopic / don't relate to what the topic is.

I'd like to say I'm the only person who thinks this way, but I definitely am not. >_>

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, I'm trolling, I think the same way. Seems every post relates to Pichu in some way, or doesn't make sense at all.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I understand sorry i'm just like this and I do try to make sense and sorry I ramble it's just I think about a lot of things at once.(prevented long ramble). Also I do pretend still.

Also x After Dawn x my veiws are worth S*** just like everyone esles but you have found meaning in them and given them a reason or meaning to be. This S*** has been created into something better more even if it is a little insulting(not to me) I thank you.


Also which way should the topic go? I could talk about pichu but no one cares really and I think we are all a little tried of puff being talked about(above peach at least I think no higher than that for now)

Anyone argee that falco should move up at least one space?

 

[adumbrodeus]

... But I wanna talk about pichu!



And puff is definitely better then peach and definitely a top tier character, I'm confused why nobody noticed this before.

Spoiler

Presumably because everyone dismissed the stuff that puff could do as "theorycraft".

 

[Jim Morrison]

People need to stop rushing at Jigglypuff.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

O then K let's talk about why pichu>kirby , kirby>pichu or pichu>world.

What do you think of perfect up-B? Does it count more as a mindgame or a way to moves and approach?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody cares.

 

[Incronaut]

I understand sorry i'm just like this and I do try to make sense and sorry I ramble it's just I think about a lot of things at once.(prevented long ramble). Also I do pretend still.

Also x After Dawn x my veiws are worth S*** just like everyone esles but you have found meaning in them and given them a reason or meaning to be. This S*** has been created into something better more even if it is a little insulting(not to me) I thank you.


Also which way should the topic go? I could talk about pichu but no one cares really and I think we are all a little tried of puff being talked about(above peach at least I think no higher than that for now)

Anyone argee that falco should move up at least one space?

falco moving up? that would make him beat... sheik...

hmmm, well, sheik has better overall matchups, and although like 70% of the matchups are high/top tier, when those good low tier players come along i feel like falco can struggle

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Falco controls the stage way to good and is highly reped, plus some match-ups are WAY more important like falco doing good vs fox is more important than him vs DK(which is really good for him), sheik has many crazy good match-ups but one of the most important ones are falco and fox. Just why I was thinking falco above sheik