Official MBR Tier List

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

When I go home next summer (assuming people will still be playing Melee in Hawaii -_-), I want to record some data on the characters and the stages used in the tournaments. I think it would be useful to see a three-month period of results and have in-depth statistics on counterpick stages, counterpick characters, and consistency of winning players. The only problem is that Ka-Master is just going to **** up this data since he always places first with Luigi in all the tournaments lol. He's the darn Mango of Hawaii.

Also, a flaw in thinking that Falco is number 1 on the tier list is the number of people who SWITCH to fox in certain match-ups because Falco is not as good. You see it ALL the time. Yet, you rarely see it the other way around.

Going against Jiggs? I better switch to Fox. Going against Marth? I better switch to Fox since I lost to him the first time with Falco. Going against Falcon? I was beaten the first time by SS, maybe now I'll go Fox.
And it's not like the match up is necessarily terrible in some situations like Falco vs. Marth, it's just that the match-up is better for fox. Maybe I've just seen too many Jiggs/Fox matches recently, but I think it happens often and not only against Jiggs.

I feel like the match-ups should hold a little bit of weight, at least in the case I'm providing you.
If Falco is so good, then why do people switch him out to go Fox, yet rarely it happens vice versa?

*expl odes*

Rofl. QFT.

 

[Lordydennek]

Uair kills jiggs. the end.

 

[otg]

Uair kills jiggs. the end.

lmao, so does Pichu's usmash. What kind of justification is that?

 

[The Good Doctor]

Lets see how good Peach is without the option of Mute City. Yes, Armada did counter pick it at Genesis.

 

[Mogwai]

When I go home next summer (assuming people will still be playing Melee in Hawaii -_-), I want to record some data on the characters and the stages used in the tournaments. I think it would be useful to see a three-month period of results and have in-depth statistics on counterpick stages, counterpick characters, and consistency of winning players. The only problem is that Ka-Master is just going to **** up this data since he always places first with Luigi in all the tournaments lol. He's the darn Mango of Hawaii.

Also, a flaw in thinking that Falco is number 1 on the tier list is the number of people who SWITCH to fox in certain match-ups because Falco is not as good. You see it ALL the time. Yet, you rarely see it the other way around.

Going against Jiggs? I better switch to Fox. Going against Marth? I better switch to Fox since I lost to him the first time with Falco. Going against Falcon? I was beaten the first time by SS, maybe now I'll go Fox.
And it's not like the match up is necessarily terrible in some situations like Falco vs. Marth, it's just that the match-up is better for fox. Maybe I've just seen too many Jiggs/Fox matches recently, but I think it happens often and not only against Jiggs.

I feel like the match-ups should hold a little bit of weight, at least in the case I'm providing you.
If Falco is so good, then why do people switch him out to go Fox, yet rarely it happens vice versa?



Rofl. QFT.

The only 3 matchups in the high tiers that I think Fox is convincingly better than Falco at are Peach, Jiggs, and ICs. I think Falco is slightly better vs. other Spacies, Marth and Sheik, and convincingly better vs. Falcon, Ganon and Samus as well as some of the mid-low tier characters.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

and why are people suddenly going into "tier list = tournament results" mode after i just said that its not and provided some reasonable reasons why?

Fairly certain this is targeted at me.

You did not provide reasonable reasons. You simply said metagame /=/ tournament results. Which is obvious. The only reason for what I said is that I am under the impression that this tier list IS based off of tournament results. Marth, due to m2k and a bit of ken's tournament rapings for years, is tied with fox for first. If a new tier list is to be created and it is similarly based upon tournament results then Falco and Puff will undoubtedly be top. Hbox and Mango insured the puff. Chops, Zhu, PP, Shiz, and every other falco.

Again, if this tier list was not based upon mostly tournament results then please correct me. I don't necessarily agree with the placings of the characters due to tourny results, just stating that if a new tier list is created in the same way jiggs will have be top due to mango and hbox's placings.

Who really thinks marth is tied with fox for best character in the game?

 

[Mogwai]

Who really thinks marth is tied with fox for best character in the game?

Mow, Pink Reaper, I can't think of any others, but I'm sure some other people are stuck in 2007 as well.

 

[Lordydennek]

I think everyone is just mad that puff is beating them. they are going to put her at the top so they have an excuse.

 

[Juggleguy]

Then why is Mango the only one that is THAT good with her? An average puff almost always loses to an average marth.

... worst post ever?

The tier list does not take average players into account at all. It reflects the performance of top players using characters at their highest potential. Their metagames.

 

[Mogwai]

right, just like everyone says the Yankees are the best team in baseball. it has nothing to do with the fact that they win the most or have the best players, people just wanna feel better about losing to them. makes total sense. in fact, the Pittsburgh Pirates are the best team in baseball, they just are full of excuses about other teams being better. if they just believed in themselves, they'd be the 2009 world champions. if we just redid the baseball tier list to have the Pirates at the top, they'd win because they'd no longer have excuses.

did you think about that post at all?

 

[Lordydennek]

... worst post ever?

The tier list does not take average players into account at all. It reflects the performance of top players using characters at their highest potential. Their metagames.

We've discussed this previously. Tiers in other games are based on average players ability BECAUSE when you get to be pro you can use almost any character and win. For instance Puff was ranked high tier, then someone like mango takes her to the next level, that means that Mango is abnormally good at the game and with that character. Now the possibility that puff is better than previously thought is on the table.

 

[Vro]

The only 3 matchups in the high tiers that I think Fox is convincingly better than Falco at are Peach, Jiggs, and ICs. I think Falco is slightly better vs. other Spacies, Marth and Sheik, and convincingly better vs. Falcon, Ganon and Samus as well as some of the mid-low tier characters.

I want to hear more on this. I agree with your Fox statement about Peach, Jiggs, and IC's. I've started having the hunch Falco has a slight advantage at high level of play verse Marth. But Fox has it pretty even with Marth, how much better you think Falco has it in that matchup? I think the same about Sheik. Both spacies have it pretty close to even with Sheik, and I could only imagine Sheik's gimps are that much more ridiculous on Falco than Fox.

Okay. I don't know how much harder Falcon could be ***** by than by a Fox (no sheiks). Falco has the gun and combos, but Fox has shinespikes, infinite combos, more priority that next day mailing.

Falco is f-ing great. But I'm not convinced he's better than Fox.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

We've discussed this previously. Tiers in other games are based on average players ability BECAUSE when you get to be pro you can use almost any character and win. For instance Puff was ranked high tier, then someone like mango takes her to the next level, that means that Mango is abnormally good at the game and with that character. Now the possibility that puff is better than previously thought is on the table.

We have not discussed this previously. You said that average players are taken into account, and I told you that what the average player does is completely irrelevant to the tier list. Then you just moved on and continued posting uneducated posts.

 

[Lordydennek]

We have not discussed this previously. You said that average players are taken into account, and I told you that what the average player does is completely irrelevant to the tier list. Then you just moved on and continued posting uneducated posts.

Hey calm down. i just explained why i thought that average players would be included. i understand that it's based on metagame.

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

We've discussed this previously. Tiers in other games are based on average players ability BECAUSE when you get to be pro you can use almost any character and win. For instance Puff was ranked high tier, then someone like mango takes her to the next level, that means that Mango is abnormally good at the game and with that character. Now the possibility that puff is better than previously thought is on the table.

If the tier list were for average players, we'd STILL want to see puff go up because Puff ***** Fox at lower levels of play, learning curve not as high, etc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fairly certain this is targeted at me.

You did not provide reasonable reasons. You simply said metagame /=/ tournament results. Which is obvious. The only reason for what I said is that I am under the impression that this tier list IS based off of tournament results. Marth, due to m2k and a bit of ken's tournament rapings for years, is tied with fox for first. If a new tier list is to be created and it is similarly based upon tournament results then Falco and Puff will undoubtedly be top. Hbox and Mango insured the puff. Chops, Zhu, PP, Shiz, and every other falco.

Again, if this tier list was not based upon mostly tournament results then please correct me. I don't necessarily agree with the placings of the characters due to tourny results, just stating that if a new tier list is created in the same way jiggs will have be top due to mango and hbox's placings.

Who really thinks marth is tied with fox for best character in the game?

actually it was more targeted at john, but i'll address these points.

How didn't i give reasonable reasons? i said a lot more than metagame =/= tournament results. Marth was "tied" (its not tied, go look) with fox not because of how m2k placed in tournaments, but rather the advances he made with the character.

And i think marth was tied for fox as the best character in the game. Now i see why falco is a better character and see marth tied with sheik or directly under her.

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

The only 3 matchups in the high tiers that I think Fox is convincingly better than Falco at are Peach, Jiggs, and ICs. I think Falco is slightly better vs. other Spacies, Marth and Sheik, and convincingly better vs. Falcon, Ganon and Samus as well as some of the mid-low tier characters.

I agree with your first statement.

I think Falco has a slight advantage over Fox, but not a terribly large one.

Does Falco really have THAT much of an advantage over Marth than Fox?
I keep hearing that Marth>=Falco. And if Fox is = Marth, how can that be? I mean, I didn't know that general consensus was that Fox has a bad match-up against Marth.
(Correct me where I am blatantly wrong)

I do realize that Falco has a much better advantage over Sheik than Fox. However, limited Sheik players getting high rankings in national tournaments is disappointing because it makes it harder to analyze this sort of thing. Like does the fact that Fox has a disadvantage against Sheik matter as much as say Fox having an advantage over Peach, just in terms of tournament results?

Versus Falcon, I don't know if I'd give more of an advantage to Falco over Fox. They both just kinda **** in the match-up. Fox combos Falcon pretty easily like Falco does.

Anyway, I guess I see that Falco has good match-ups in the list of characters but I still think Fox is so good that people will play him even if the match-up chart says play falco instead.

And I realize that all the top falco players have fox mains (chops? PP?) whereas JMan and Lucky don't have secondary Falcos, so you can't really ask them to switch to falco against a sheik player. But all those guys have fox back ups for a reason...

 

[Turnip T]

Fox ≥ Jiggz
Fox ≤ Falco (I can't see why people think this match is dead, or how Fox can even win...)
Fox = Marth
Fox > Sheik
Fox > Peach
Fox > Falcon
Fox > Ganon

Jiggz > Falco
Jiggz ≤ Marth
Jiggz = Sheik
Jiggz = Peach
Jiggz > Falcon
Jiggz ≥ Ganon

Falco ≤ Marth
Falco > Sheik
Falco = Peach
Falco > Falcon
Falco > Ganon

Marth ≤ Sheik
Marth > Falcon (yea, I said it, and I believe it.)
Marth ≥ Ganon

Sheik > Falcon
Sheik > Ganon

Falcon = Ganon

I'll be more than happy to explain any of these... I thought I'd throw my basic thoughts out...

~ Dark Hart

≠

 

[Mogwai]

I want to hear more on this. I agree with your Fox statement about Peach, Jiggs, and IC's. I've started having the hunch Falco has a slight advantage at high level of play verse Marth. But Fox has it pretty even with Marth, how much better you think Falco has it in that matchup? I think the same about Sheik. Both spacies have it pretty close to even with Sheik, and I could only imagine Sheik's gimps are that much more ridiculous on Falco than Fox.

Okay. I don't know how much harder Falcon could be ***** by than by a Fox. Falco has the gun and combos, but Fox has shinespikes, infinite combos, more priority that next day mailing.

Falco is f-ing great. But I'm not convinced he's better than Fox.

ok, so here goes:

Falco beats Fox by a slim margin, most people agree to this. That means that he's better vs. Fox than Fox is and also that he's better vs. himself than Fox is. Easy enough.

Top level sheiks **** off stage spacies equally. Her fair and bair are sufficiently ******** that once you are comfortable with the spacing, Fox's fire is irrelevant. Her recovery is also sufficiently ******** that she doesn't care much about Fox's extra distance because she can always go down there and get him. Yes, it is more difficult that gimping Falco, but once you're comfortable with sheik's offstage stupidness, it's not much more difficult to just kill him. On the flipside of the coin, Falco controls sheik much better than Fox does because of lasers which severly ****s with Sheik's platform and ground game. He also sets up priority walls that sheik cannot deal with in the form of bairs and dairs which are both better than Fox's equivalent moves. Fox still has speed on his side, but because sheik wants to stay grounded most of the time anyway, I find this aspect to be less relevant than Falco's laser and spacing advantages, because Falco can force sheik to approach with aerials which can lead to easy CC shine ****. This point is up for debate though, and while I personally think Falco's better at the matchup, I believe there's a legitimate case for Fox being at least as good at it.

Marth's entire game vs. spacies is about punishment and the fact that Falco controls his approaches better with lasers and bair just makes him better at it than Fox. Again, it could be debated that Fox is at least as good at the matchup because of movement, but ultimately I think that good Falcos have been showing this match to be a slight advantage for Falco if he's patient. The difference is slight, but I believe that it's pretty clearly there.

Short of Cactuar vs. Darkrain, I don't see Foxes ****** Falcon that hard. Yes, Fox's rushdown game vs. Falcon is better, but he can be caught by a stupid little trick and death comboed because he has to approach and stay on Falcon the whole time. Falco just gets to use lasers to put Falcon in the right place for the entire match and then savagely ***** him with auto combos and the run off dair and f-smash edgeguarding options that inexplicably cover basically all of Falcon's recovery options. His utilt is also monstrous and destroys Falcon way harder than Fox's does. Basically, I'd be surprised to see a random mid-level Fox beat a top level Falcon, but random mid-level Falcos are something that Falcon players don't wanna see (Aarosmashguy and Ryan K beating Scar come to mind). Falco can just control the whole match and has a larger margin for error than Fox does. And if we want to talk about top level, near-perfect play, they both molest Falcon, so who cares if Fox would do it harder.

Essentially, I think Falco has a much better control game than Fox, so any character that can be comboed by Falco as easily as they can be comboed by Fox has a harder time with Falco than Fox because they get fewer opportunities to score a hit. The reason Fox is so much better vs. Peach/Jiggs/ICs is because he combos and kills Peach better, kills Puff with uthrow uair at ludicrously low %s and auto gimps Nana with a move that comes out in 1 frame, while Falco needs to work harder for his kills on all of them due to floaty weights.

 

[Zephynazo]

^ That is not a bad argument. But i really do think Fox and Faclo both do equally well vs Marth.

 

[john!]

Lmao, I love how people reject my reasoning because it's different than what they want to think. What other reason do you have to explain how Mango and Hbox are almost unbeatable? If there exists a Jigglypuff that can beat everybody, Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. You can't use hypotheticals such as "Fox can do xxx to Puff so Fox wins" because clearly the matchup is not so easy in real life. Is this really so confusing?

Oh, and if Jigglypuff is so easy, start playing her and win tournaments. Oh wait, you aren't, because you'd get steamrolled. Don't make judgments when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Lordydennek]

Lmao, I love how people reject my reasoning because it's different than what they want to think. What other reason do you have to explain how Mango and Hbox are almost unbeatable? If there exists a Jigglypuff that can beat everybody, Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. Is this really so confusing?

Oh, and if Jigglypuff is so easy, start playing her and win tournaments. Oh wait, you aren't, because you'd get steamrolled. Don't make judgments when you don't know what you're talking about.

Wait doesn't that contradict your point? If jiggs is the best then she would always win no matter what right???

 

[pockyD]

If there exists a Jigglypuff that can beat everybody, Jigglypuff is the best character in the game.

you really believe this?

there probably exists at least a jigglypuff, a falco, and a peach that can beat everybody

whoops now we have a bunch of best characters

 

[Mogwai]

Lmao, I love how people reject my reasoning because it's different than what they want to think. What other reason do you have to explain how Mango and Hbox are almost unbeatable? If there exists a Jigglypuff that can beat everybody, Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. Is this really so confusing?

no it's just that most people don't believe that the fact that the best player in the world plays Jigglypuff leads to the conclusion that Jiggs is the best character. It's not confusing it's just that the way you chose to define "best character in the game," doesn't conform with how most players do.

 

[onedayafter7]

sure the character helps. but its really the player that makes the match. imo at least.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I am too frustrated with dumb people to make educated informative posts any longer. I am now becoming a troll.

The character you play doesn't matter. If you play Puff, since she has the rest and is the best character as Mango has shown, then it makes it a little bit easier. But still, Mango is the one that makes puff good. If he really wanted he could **** with any character because he is that good and the character isn't really important.

lawl at you guys debating when anyone can when with anyone

 

[strawhats]

Will there ever be another marth to ascend m2k and Ken, and rid the world of the menace that is Jigglypuff? (find out on the next episode of DBZ)

Well in terms of mango ****** with any character (His marth is a no so...yeah)

 

[Mew2King]

yeah i guess it's just a huge coincidence that when mango doesn't win huge huge tournaments, hungrybox does, with Darc always doing very well. Just coincidences (or the fact that hbox beat all of mango's characters in money matches at Rom1 and Rom2 both except puff dittos at genesis tourney). Coincidence.

 

[-ACE-]

M2K has a point. I don't wanna hear everyone ***** about him being biased either lol

 

[john!]

Also I know I sound like a cocky nobody online, but any critics should take what I say at face value instead of attacking the one who said it.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol yea what M2K said.

Sigh these threads never stop flaming do they .


Ok as far as I know, the SBR ranks characters on the Tire List as of their tourney presence and how well they perform in tournies.

Therefore, theoretically, if a player is very good, and plays X character, and always does well enough that the SBR thinks his character does well enough in tournies, then that X character will be as high on the Tire List as the SBR thinks X character should be. So if, literally, EVERYONE played Pichu and ONLY Pichu at tournies, then Pichu would be the highest rank on the Tire List since none of the other characters show up in tournies nor do they have tourney presence.

If you think I am wrong and/or have a different definition of what a Tire List is, then that definition most likely is not, for lack of a better word, usable. For example, if you make a Tire List ranking each character from best to last, then there are way too many factors for people to commonly agree on who gets what rank. If theres enough of X character, then Y character will do bad in tournies because of their weakness, and then Z character will rank higher because they are even against X character but were weak against Y character. Because of situations like this, it would be very difficult to create a commonly accepted Tire List. And so, you have to incorporate Tourney Results as the main thing to consider when creating a Tire List.

 

[pockyD]

Also I know I sound like a cocky nobody online, but any critics should take what I say at face value instead of attacking the one who said it.

pretty arrogant of you to assume that what you said wasn't just incredibly stupid in and of itself

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lmao, I love how people reject my reasoning because it's different than what they want to think. What other reason do you have to explain how Mango and Hbox are almost unbeatable? If there exists a Jigglypuff that can beat everybody, Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. You can't use hypotheticals such as "Fox can do xxx to Puff so Fox wins" because clearly the matchup is not so easy in real life. Is this really so confusing?

So what if the game was exactly the same and the best player in the world played marth? Or Falco? Or Pichu?


I'm sorry, but it's often pretty obvious that (and I said this with Marth before when alphazealot was saying that Marth is the only tournament viable character because he was the only char that won nationals) the best player in the game is simply the best player. The fact that the best player is better then everyone else means that he's good enough that he can overcome the fact that his character is not the best in the game. Is it that much of a stretch to think that that player is just that much better then everyone else?

Regional top players do it all the time as do locals, otherwise the best character would win every tournament ever and never be beaten.


As for hypotheticals, as time goes on, the hypotheticals get closer to reality, because players improve, a tierlist is supposed to tell how good a character is at the TOP of the metagame. Nothing less nothing more.

Players help indicate, but the tiers themselves are set by the attributes of the actual characters a long time ago.


Oh, and you remember what I said, about what if the top player plays Falco?

Well Mango is currently the top player, and while yes he plays jiggs, who else does he play? Falco.



edit: I think Hbox may be better now, but I'll hold out for a bit before calling it.

Oh, and if Jigglypuff is so easy, start playing her and win tournaments. Oh wait, you aren't, because you'd get steamrolled. Don't make judgments when you don't know what you're talking about.

Relative to the rest of the tournament viable cast. She still requires a great deal of work and dedication.

Will there ever be another marth to ascend m2k and Ken, and rid the world of the menace that is Jigglypuff? (find out on the next episode of DBZ)

Well in terms of mango ****** with any character (His marth is a no so...yeah)

I'll do it!!!!


Except I suck against Jiggs. Eh, but I'm ambitious and improving, maybe eventually I'll move up from an ok nobody and become the jigglypuff slayer... preferably with my Zelda, that would be sweet.

 

[john!]

pretty arrogant of you to assume that what you said wasn't just incredibly stupid in and of itself

Posts like this are just... come on, this is just flaming. No reason at all behind what you just said. You are sounding like a jerk when you say that.

no it's just that most people don't believe that the fact that the best player in the world plays Jigglypuff leads to the conclusion that Jiggs is the best character. It's not confusing it's just that the way you chose to define "best character in the game," doesn't conform with how most players do.

This I can agree with. I dislike any personal bias being put into these sorts of rankings. That's why I'm extremely uncomfortable with theorycrafting and tend to look towards objective data such as tourney placings for results. Many people will say "If Fox did such and such in a matchup, he would win, so he's better than that character". What right do they have to say that when the best strategies of the best Fox players are being beaten by the best Puff players? How can they assume that they know what goes on in the mind of the top players, especially when the results contradict their theories? It's just unreasonable.

If people like to construct a fictional metagame based on what they think each character can do, that's fine, but it can't be taken seriously if it contradicts reality.

 

[JPOBS]

Also, a flaw in thinking that Falco is number 1 on the tier list is the number of people who SWITCH to fox in certain match-ups because Falco is not as good. You see it ALL the time. Yet, you rarely see it the other way around

people switching to fox has absoluting zero bearing on falco's placement. For two reasons

1. there are falco only mains and
2. People also switch from Falco to character X in many other matchups.

Switching to a secondary is natural and means absolutely nothing in tier list discussion.

 

[Fletch]

Marth > Falcon (yea, I said it, and I believe it.)
Falcon = Ganon

These are the only two I'd have trouble believing, Falcon beats down Ganon pretty hard and Marth v. Falcon I think is pretty stage dependent.

 

[Mogwai]

part of the reason why people don't think Jiggs is the best is the huge lack of high level Jiggs players outside of the big 3 (Mango, HBox, Darc), while there are a plethora of players contending for 9-32nd place at nationals with Fox and Falco. This argument also happens to pertain to Marth and Sheik at this point in time too, and we're seeing the almost top-level-but-not-quite portion of the community overloaded with spacies, which IMO is a pretty good indication that they're the best.

 

[hungrybox]

"Jiggz ≤ Marth
Jiggz = Sheik
Jiggz = Peach"

I would've written a big LOL, but then I realized how much trouble I used to have with those characters when I was still getting good.

Maybe a "tier list" shows who would MOST LIKELY win between two players of EQUAL SKILL. But what do I know...

Sure, Jiggs have won the past dozen or so big tournaments (mainly mango, i won one or two?), but c'mon, is that anywhere near Ken? Ken (and M2k) is the MAIN reason (imo) that Marth is still top tier - because he shows (or used to show) outrageous maneuvers against all characters. Then again, that's only tournament placings...how that affects the tier list is a whole different formula (or lack of one)

Note: Marth was the HARDEST matchup for me to learn. I started in 7th grade and perfected it like in the end of 9th grade...

 

[Mogwai]

Sure, Jiggs have won the past dozen or so big tournaments (mainly mango, i won one or two?), but c'mon, is that anywhere near Ken?

yes, I'd argue it's actually more impressive than what Ken did with Marth IMO, because:

1. Ken wasn't winning everything
2. when other players were winning, they usually weren't using Marth
3. the average level of play was lower back then.

 

[john!]

part of the reason why people don't think Jiggs is the best is the huge lack of high level Jiggs players outside of the big 3 (Mango, HBox, Darc), while there are a plethora of players contending for 9-32nd place at nationals with Fox and Falco. This argument also happens to pertain to Marth and Sheik at this point in time too, and we're seeing the almost top-level-but-not-quite portion of the community overloaded with spacies, which IMO is a pretty good indication that they're the best.

See, to me this indicates that Jiggs is better than spanimals, but it is very hard to be good enough with her to reach this level. It's easier for space animals because with enough practice anyone can drillshine, pillar, etc. I know people are resistant to the idea that Jiggs is a difficult character because she has a simple design and her gameplay is straightforward (from what I know), relying heavily on spacing and reading. But the degree to which you have to perfect your spacing and reading is so high that very few are capable of getting there.