HawaiianJigglyPuff
Smash Ace
@john9blue - what bout the fact that Mango ***** with his Falco just as hard?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
- Status
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
John9Blue:
So, because Isai ***** ssb64 with every character at every tournament, every character is the best!
As for the fox argument. The reason people still construct arguments such as "just laser camp" or whatever is because often times the people who are expected to do it, don't, and then lose. It is then attributed that because they didn't do that strategy is why they lost. Except lucky camping armada at genesis, that doesn't count
. Theorycrafting can only go so far, yes, but the metagame is definitely approaching the peak of the theory. Except for bowser he still sucks.
So, because Isai ***** ssb64 with every character at every tournament, every character is the best!
As for the fox argument. The reason people still construct arguments such as "just laser camp" or whatever is because often times the people who are expected to do it, don't, and then lose. It is then attributed that because they didn't do that strategy is why they lost. Except lucky camping armada at genesis, that doesn't count
. Theorycrafting can only go so far, yes, but the metagame is definitely approaching the peak of the theory. Except for bowser he still sucks.
john!
Smash Hero
I dunno, his Falco lost to Armada. But if he could beat everybody (including Armada) with Falco, then I'd be prepared to call Falco the second best. Then it would depend whether his Falco or his Puff is better overall, and I would consider that character to be the best in the game.
Hah, well I dunno. Like I said earlier, you'd have to determine which of their characters they are better with, and that requires personal judgments. But clearly Isai's best character in 64 is the best character in the game.
I have a hard time believing that people don't do something in tournament intentionally, that causes them to lose. Even if the metagame is approaching theory, there are two problems:As for the fox argument. The reason people still construct arguments such as "just laser camp" or whatever is because often times the people who are expected to do it, don't, and then lose. It is then attributed that because they didn't do that strategy is why they lost. Except lucky camping armada at genesis, that doesn't count
- The metagame will never reach theory, so theory is not all that important
- Theory is highly debatable, whereas tourney placings are indisputable
I've pretty much said most of what I think about this topic, you can agree or disagree or ask questions, but what I say might sound repetitious.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Maybe that's how he got good as falco from the mental jigglypuff stuff
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Say characters X and Y face off in an advanced game of rock paper scissors.
Character X can throw rock and it beats Y's scissors and Y's paper, only losing when Y throws rock.
Players of Character X would obviously exploit their advantage and rely on their overpowered rock.
Players of Character Y are forced to throw rock when X throws rock, and only do scissors when X throws paper. Y has absolutely no use for paper.
Which character has advantage in this situation?
edit:: i forgot to mention that Y loses when they throw rock and X doesnt throw rock.
Character X can throw rock and it beats Y's scissors and Y's paper, only losing when Y throws rock.
Players of Character X would obviously exploit their advantage and rely on their overpowered rock.
Players of Character Y are forced to throw rock when X throws rock, and only do scissors when X throws paper. Y has absolutely no use for paper.
Which character has advantage in this situation?
edit:: i forgot to mention that Y loses when they throw rock and X doesnt throw rock.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
the funny thing about tourny placings is that right after the dominant jiggs/falco players, theres always like 2-3 Falcons in the top 10.
which is hilarious because everyone in this thread probably agrees that falcon is a garbage character compared to falco/fox/jiggs/marth/sheik and we chalk it up to scar/Hax/Darkrain/SS just being VERY good.
but when we talk about the 2-3 top jiggs, all of a sudden, it turns into JIGGS as a character must be something special.
jiggs is still garbage just like falcon.
but really good players succeed regardless of who they play as.
which is hilarious because everyone in this thread probably agrees that falcon is a garbage character compared to falco/fox/jiggs/marth/sheik and we chalk it up to scar/Hax/Darkrain/SS just being VERY good.
but when we talk about the 2-3 top jiggs, all of a sudden, it turns into JIGGS as a character must be something special.
jiggs is still garbage just like falcon.
but really good players succeed regardless of who they play as.
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
Wait Rock beats paper?? ive been playing wrong alll allllooong!! 
Idk the answer to many letters.
Idk the answer to many letters.
john!
Smash Hero
Assuming this is directed at me...
X . . Y . . Winner
R . . R . . Y
R . . S . . X
P . . R . . X
P . . S . . Y
S . . R . . X
S . . S . . ?
Who wins when they both throw scissors? The players would just react and see who can react the quickest. X would have an advantage though, because more scenarios favor him.
I don't understand your point though...
If Falcon places really well in tourney, then I'd say he's definitely not a garbage character, wouldn't you?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
john, update that with my edit.
edit: and what normally happens in rock paper scissors when two people throw scissors?
edit: and what normally happens in rock paper scissors when two people throw scissors?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
So what if he was the best player, but he could never win in dittos with another player for all the characters he plays?
The thing is, matches reaching theoretical perfection is not all that far-fetched, especially when you're talking about amazingly technical players which the game is producing now. What will hold people up in the end is,
a. a lot of tech skill is useless or very situational but people WILL learn it if they need it.
b. Too many match-ups, but only a few important ones.
How can we talk about whether a match-up is actually good if we can say, "you know it really is 40-60, but if players could just reliably do [insert humanly possible tech skill here] and [insert humanly possible tech skill here] and [insert humanly possible tech skill here], then it would be a 65-35 in fox's favor.
Especially fox, fox players have shown the capacity to learn to do just about anything.
See the problem there, when players learn to do that, the value shifts, this essentially means that rather then discoveries and major shifts in the metagame that happen rarely defining it, the metagame shifts every 5 minutes as players achieve different tech skills.
Better a theoretical value for the tiers that reflect what players CAN do rather then what they're actually doing, because you can always tell a player, "do this this and this" to make them approach that plateau.
That's because smash is a VERY difficult game to construct a proper theoretical model for unfortunately, but match-ups are pure logic, they should not be debatable, and that is an area that the community needs to improve in.
Honestly, you seemed like a troll at first, but you seem well-spoken now and bring up some valid points, props.
His point was that it's clear that rock has the advantage from a purely theoretical standpoint because rock beats two.I don't understand your point though...
JPOBS
Smash Hero
not at all.
falcon is a garbage character with no approach, no stage control, no defense other than Dash dance spacing, no options out of sheild, no ability to kill at low percents, no recovery.
but great players do well with him regardless because player skill means alot more than character attributes.
john!
Smash Hero
Dittos don't really determine which player is better at the character. Also, they don't affect the character's relation to other characters at all, so it doesn't affect the tier list.
Actually, if I was X, I would constantly throw scissors, because I would never lose.
well, if Y loses when it throws rock and X doesn't, then X just always throws Scissors and never loses.
Your example seems flawed.
pockyD
Smash Legend
why'd you have to base the example on RPS, that just made it waaaay more confusing since you changed almost all the rules
frotaz37
Smash Lord
It's funny that you guys argue so strongly in a thread called FINAL MELEE TIER LIST.
AS IN THERE WONT ME MORE.
GG
AS IN THERE WONT ME MORE.
GG
john!
Smash Hero
Hah I just noticed this, thanks. I think if people took the time to try and understand each other, we'd find more in common than we believe at first.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
meh **** it, example over.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
anyone else have an extra page on this thread for no reason?
MarioMariox2
Smash Ace
I think we should make a new tier list and not necessarily by the MBR. I mean, that's how the SSB64 tiers got updated. Now we just need to debate which characters would go up/down.
Lovage
Smash Hero
that works for the ssb64 tier list because they have an extremely small community and were able to pretty much agree on the list easily. also that game has 12 characters with lots of people who play many characters (because characters are very easy to learn in that game)
so its super easy to rank
so its super easy to rank
pockyD
Smash Legend
guys play nice, i can't wait to hear "MarioMariox2"'s take on the tier list
LAX_
Smash Apprentice
only change i think is that puff be moved to the top tier...
just disregard the placements. anyone on the same tier level can compete against each other easily. if it isn't on the same tier level, USUALLY it's harder (either slightly, moderately, or severely, depending on if you are comparing a high to a top or a bottom to a top).
just disregard the placements. anyone on the same tier level can compete against each other easily. if it isn't on the same tier level, USUALLY it's harder (either slightly, moderately, or severely, depending on if you are comparing a high to a top or a bottom to a top).
I think all 2000 of us should sit down together and talk this over like adults. I think great conversation and debate would spawn from such a gathering.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
It should be like Florida's Melee Power Rankings:
No order, simply tier placings.
No order, simply tier placings.
`DNS`
Smash Lord
i was about to LOL at this but i guess you meant falcon
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
deleted posts still count as posts, but they are sent to the realm of last page where only mods can see
or something like that
either way: moderated posts dont get seen but are still there
when i first got into smash, as in: interested enough to see who was good and who was not, i was not surprised to see sheik high, but i was surprised to see that kirby was below pichu. My question arose then and i hope the status quo on the issue never changes: why would anyone ever make pichu better than any other character? Pichu should stay #26 for eternity
JPOBS
Smash Hero
indeed haha typo fail
pockyD
Smash Legend
kirby is the dumbest character in the game and should be banned
please propose this in the backroom. he is the scourge of the melee scene and is killing the community.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I thought mods just edit posts and didnt have the ability to delete them.
And if they could edit them why would they delete them.
Its more effective to insert whatever stupidity or inappropriateness with "im a *******" or "im banned 4 lyfe"
hungrybox
Smash Legend
yea
if we can ban RIDICULOUSLY broken chars
why not really horrible chars?
if we can ban RIDICULOUSLY broken chars
why not really horrible chars?
Obv. We better ban them. It's not fair, nobody knows the MU against useless characters.
MarioMariox2
Smash Ace
Counterpick Fox only, Final Destination.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
kirby is broken.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i don't mean to start this up, but why does this thread still have the word "Final" in the title?
p.s. i'm all for kirby being banned.
p.s. i'm all for kirby being banned.
Clint_Eastwood
Smash Apprentice
I think Firestone should be higher, how about you?Lol yea what M2K said.
Sigh these threads never stop flaming do they
Ok as far as I know, the SBR ranks characters on the Tire List as of their tourney presence and how well they perform in tournies.
Therefore, theoretically, if a player is very good, and plays X character, and always does well enough that the SBR thinks his character does well enough in tournies, then that X character will be as high on the Tire List as the SBR thinks X character should be. So if, literally, EVERYONE played Pichu and ONLY Pichu at tournies, then Pichu would be the highest rank on the Tire List since none of the other characters show up in tournies nor do they have tourney presence.
If you think I am wrong and/or have a different definition of what a Tire List is, then that definition most likely is not, for lack of a better word, usable. For example, if you make a Tire List ranking each character from best to last, then there are way too many factors for people to commonly agree on who gets what rank. If theres enough of X character, then Y character will do bad in tournies because of their weakness, and then Z character will rank higher because they are even against X character but were weak against Y character. Because of situations like this, it would be very difficult to create a commonly accepted Tire List. And so, you have to incorporate Tourney Results as the main thing to consider when creating a Tire List.
A Pimp Named Slickback
Smash Lord
Michellin for top tier
- Status