Official MBR Tier List

[Pi]

Then why is Mango the only one that is THAT good with her? An average puff almost always loses to an average marth.

he's not...climb out from under your rock and realize that hungrybox has been winning if not placing right behind mango at every major tournament. To5, rom2, was #3 at genesis.

darc is also doing extremely well as a puff

this is more than marth can say, or sheiks, or foxes.

and who the hell is talking about average players?

 

[Lordydennek]

Ok you have a point. I didnt know about hbox. I still dont see puff as the best. You just have to be more careful when playing against her. Stay near the middle of the stage. and when she gets close...run away. camp her with projectiles. You have to use an entirely different move-and mind-set when fighting her.

 

[null55]

Wow, Renth is like, such a ****. He's insulting VirusBlueMage JUST because he's constantly being ******** and incorrect and inflammatory and gay(possibly bi? more at 11:00) I think we should all add Renth to our ignore lists so we don't have to see his rude rude posts.


In other news, this is the first time I've posted here in a while. I'd just like to say, I personally am against changes in the Melee Tier list. Characters and character match ups haven't actually changed much in the last few years. While the skill levels of certain players have definitely made a drastic increase the characters themselves are still being played almost exactly the same as they always have been. Arguments for or against characters moving really don't hold much weight any more as there's a far smaller amount of top level players to really show what characters can do. Especially in the Marth/Peach and to some degree even Fox. Certain characters, like Falco and Jiggs are far more prominent today, something that could be attributed to the LACK of marth, and it causes a skew in results. Idk, just some thoughts.

LOL aight dawg, if you still think C.Falc is as good as Jigglypuff you have a serious issue in the brain area. M2K aside, i've thought Jiggz was broken since God created down-B.

Not to say that's the reason why she's better than Falcon... there are a multitude of reasons. first one, Falcon is the worst high tier in the game, and he sucks, and has no approaches.

i also think Jiggz is only second to Fox. who is just ridiculous, you could write a 5x bigger list of the gay **** Fox has.

Fox
Jiggz
Falco
Marth
Sheik --> match-ups are wrong, Marth is better
Peach --> untapped
Falcon

 

[Magus420]

If they decide to DI the up throw rest you can get either a 1) pound to rest (unless they DI the pound in or 2) if you think they will DI the pound in, just use your other option and Fair to regrab. 50/50 chance you get a follow up, and the pound-> rest guarantees death so you basically get a free regrab.

DI the u-throw behind and I'm pretty sure they can't reach you with anything most/all the time. DI'ing away still gets you hit. I thought I told you this years ago. Also, if you do DI the throw away wouldn't DI'ing down for the pound/f-air avoid both the rest/regrab?

 

[Pi]

Ok you have a point. I didnt know about hbox. I still dont see puff as the best. You just have to be more careful when playing against her. Stay near the middle of the stage. and when she gets close...run away. camp her with projectiles. You have to use an entirely different move-and mind-set when fighting her.

I agree, but it's easier said then done.

ideally you want to keep her at a distance, but you also don't want to be on the edge with her, which is difficult.

Her aerial maneuverability makes it a very nerve racking guessing game when the inevitable confrontation happens in the middle of the stage, the fact that she can weave in and out with attacks, while you get pretty much 1 shot at attacking her is extremely annoying to deal with.
Puff also always has the option to shield, which never ends well regardless of what character you are.

You have to, at the very least, know every one of the combo's you have on her, execute them, and retreat. Chasing puff, especially in the air, almost never ends in your favor, she's too slippery. You have to be on your game throughout the whole matchup, take every hit you can get, and do it so as not to get punished.

You juss have to pick and pick and pick and hope that your kill move doesn't get wasted, or worse, punished.

Where as puff...has combo's, amazing edgeguards, resistance to combo's, a very safe approach, an amazing grab, an amazing recovery...etc...etc...etc...

Yes, puff can be beaten, by any character, and again I could assume a lot of reasons for why she is not being beaten, but I'm not in a position to verify these reasons so I will won't share them.

But we all know she can be beaten, the next step is to take the exact steps needed to beat her. Which again, is easier said than done.

 

[Lordydennek]

Yes its true. She reminds me of fighting someone in brawl...no combos. *sigh* Well there's always the uair!

I do think that puff is better than falcon, a lot better. and maybe just a little better than Peach?

 

[Mew2King]

magus - good idea, but i still think she can follow up with at least a Bair if you DI The up throw, maybe fair

 

[Shichi_Chan]

I agree, but it's easier said then done.

ideally you want to keep her at a distance, but you also don't want to be on the edge with her, which is difficult.

Her aerial maneuverability makes it a very nerve racking guessing game when the inevitable confrontation happens in the middle of the stage, the fact that she can weave in and out with attacks, while you get pretty much 1 shot at attacking her is extremely annoying to deal with.
Puff also always has the option to shield, which never ends well regardless of what character you are.

You have to, at the very least, know every one of the combo's you have on her, execute them, and retreat. Chasing puff, especially in the air, almost never ends in your favor, she's too slippery. You have to be on your game throughout the whole matchup, take every hit you can get, and do it so as not to get punished.

You juss have to pick and pick and pick and hope that your kill move doesn't get wasted, or worse, punished.

Where as puff...has combo's, amazing edgeguards, resistance to combo's, a very safe approach, an amazing grab, an amazing recovery...etc...etc...etc...

Yes, puff can be beaten, by any character, and again I could assume a lot of reasons for why she is not being beaten, but I'm not in a position to verify these reasons so I will won't share them.

But we all know she can be beaten, the next step is to take the exact steps needed to beat her. Which again, is easier said than done.

Hardstyle sucks. Why would you even willingly subject yourself to such a terrible genre of music?

/off topic.

 

[Niko45]

M2k is 100% on point.

Top Tier:
Jiggs
Fox
Falco

Sub-Top Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Possibly Peach

Upper Tier:
Whatever else and below

I stress tournament results to the utmost, so I just want to clarify that the reason I think fox is definitely still top tier is because tho there aren't a ton of successful Fox mains at the moment, he's pretty much 80% of the community'ssecondary. He's the universal cure all for any random character/stage scenario you find yourself running into in tournament.

 

[Lordydennek]

M2k is 100% on point.

Top Tier:
Jiggs
Fox
Falco

Sub-Top Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Possibly Peach

Upper Tier:
Whatever else and below

I stress tournament results to the utmost, so I just want to clarify that the reason I think fox is definitely still top tier is because tho there aren't a ton of successful Fox mains at the moment, he's pretty much 80% of the communities secondary. He's the universal cure all for any random character/stage scenario you find yourself running into in tournament.

Falco above sheik?? i dont think so.

Fox
Marth/sheik
Jiggs
falco

 

[Pi]

Hardstyle sucks. Why would you even willingly subject yourself to such a terrible genre of music?

/off topic.

Not that you'll listen to these any ways but here:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In_8f-rd7og
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDATvDEtV2w
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6M8zILass
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j80Tw3N5Ay0
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDa5j9ZGvew
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVvBQ6Xgo8c

If these are the songs you would call terrible then I really can't relate to you whatsoever ^^

 

[Lordydennek]

Not that you'll listen to these any ways but here:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In_8f-rd7og
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDATvDEtV2w
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6M8zILass
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j80Tw3N5Ay0
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDa5j9ZGvew
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVvBQ6Xgo8c

If these are the songs you would call terrible then I really can't relate to you whatsoever ^^

They arent terrible. BUT they all sound extremely similar to me except the last one. They ALL share the exact same rythm.

Try out a band called MGMT. They're great. you might like theyre sound.

 

[null55]

alright yall, take it to pms.

besides, MGMT isn't that great. and although i don't like saying it, Radiohead is the best band on the plant currently (arguably the best yet).

 

[Lordydennek]

I agree with you there. You cant beat Radiohead....ever. Every album is a masterpeice.

BUT still. Jiggs isnt at the top.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Back on topic..

Then why is Mango the only one that is THAT good with her? An average puff almost always loses to an average marth.

Falco above sheik?? i dont think so.
Fox
Marth/sheik
Jiggs
falco

It sounds like you are just starting to get into melee, or are pretty behind the times, but either way you are making somewhat uneducated posts. Not a problem since you aren't throwing opinions out as fact like a troll would. Just stating so your aware

Yes, there is quite a few really good puffs out there. Raistlyn, darc, hbox and mango being the main 4. Hbox is winning everything lately and still getting better. Mango isn't the only one that is good with her by any means.

What any average player does with any character is completely irrelevant to this tier list. Any "average" smasher plays marth and wins because of the fsmash. The only relevant players to this list are the top ones, and the top metagame/play. I am not a part of this top metagame, so I don't often post.

DI the u-throw behind and I'm pretty sure they can't reach you with anything most/all the time. DI'ing away still gets you hit. I thought I told you this years ago. Also, if you do DI the throw away wouldn't DI'ing down for the pound/f-air avoid both the rest/regrab?

I am glad you are making awesome posts in so many threads I frequent.

Seeing as the tier list is based off of mostly tournament results, unless I was misinformed, this tier list needs to be changed. Unless the way the list is created is changed, marth is not nearly the top placing character anymore and therefore shouldn't be top. And it is pretty clear that Marth isn't tied for best.

 

[Lordydennek]

Fairly new to the boards, but not to the game. I guess i didnt see that the tiers are based only one what the top players can do. i was looking more at what someone who is average at the game can do. for instance an average sheik will most often beat an average pichu. I didnt realize that metagame factored that much into. My newb was showing. anyway i do agree that some changes need to be made. but i still think marth is waaay up there

 

[Tyserification]

7chars .

 

[null55]

Fairly new to the boards, but not to the game. I guess i didnt see that the tiers are based only one what the top players can do. i was looking more at what someone who is average at the game can do. for instance an average sheik will most often beat an average pichu. I didnt realize that metagame factored that much into. My newb was showing. anyway i do agree that some changes need to be made. but i still think marth is waaay up there

not just factored in. the tier list is supposed to be a reflection of the metagame. therefore it's irrelevant what "average" players can do (also that term is real general, obv the best way to do it is with the highest-level players).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Guys, metagame and tournament results are very very different things.

well not very very, but they are different.

 

[null55]

well, correct me if i'm wrong, but i see tournament results as being encompassed by the metagame. i mean, "metagame" basically refers to "high-level" play, right? it feels as if tournament results (not the numbers specifically, but just the fact that tournaments are the physical manifestation of high-level play), match-up ****, and everything else about high-levelness is a part of the term metagame.

which seems to me to be most of the reason why tourney results are so important to the tier list. it's a large part of the "metagame", and its also a method to keep from having potentially rash estimates brought into the equation, and just relying on results to find the closest answer.

lol i say this assuming you found something wrong with what i said...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

metagame is the common strategies and techniques used by players at a certain period of time in a certain location.

For example, before MLG Anaheim '06 light shielding marth's upb didn't exist in the metagame.

While the metagame influences the players, and the players influence the metagame, tournament results are simply how well specific players did that day.

 

[JPOBS]

i'd say one thing that has improved changed drastically in the last year is the OoS game.

i mean, people werent ven wavedashing OoS consistently 12-18 months ago..

 

[DtJ Jungle]

*obligatory "i was wding and shining OOS two years ago"*

 

[St. Viers]

I've been Wding oos shield since I learned to WD--then again, my best friend played marth, so I kinda had to XD

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'd say one thing that has improved changed drastically in the last year is the OoS game.

i mean, people werent ven wavedashing OoS consistently 12-18 months ago..

i would have to say thats untrue. On mid level players, its been going up recently, but on the highest level its been there for a while in one way or another.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I know hugs has been wd'ing out of shield since the beginning of time

 

[x After Dawn x]

The shield game has probably improved more than anything, tbh. Falcos and Foxes alike have learned to pressure shields better; they don't really miss as many L-cancels, and double shines, shine jc grabs and shine nairs are more common against shields. As well, people have learned that rolling can be severely punished, and they're starting to use other options like up B oos, wd oos, upsmash oos, shine oos, etc.

Of course, I'm speaking primarily about the middle level of competitive play as that's what rises the most, but I don't think anybody can doubt that the metagame for high level play has changed either.

 

[john!]

Here is a scenario:

The best Jigglypuff beats everybody. Jigglypuff is therefore the best character in the game. However, an average Jigglypuff player loses to some other characters. Therefore Jigglypuff has a steep learning curve.

The best Peach beats everybody except the best Jigglypuff. Peach is therefore the second best character in the game. However, an average Peach player loses to some other characters. Therefore Peach has a steep learning curve.

The best Fox loses to the best players of Jigglypuff, Peach, and Falco, and beats everyone else. Fox is therefore the 4th best character in the game. However, an average Fox player beats the average Jigglypuff/Peach/Falco. Therefore Fox has a gentle learning curve.

The best Kirby loses to the best players of everybody else. Kirby is therefore the worst character in the game. Also, an average Kirby player loses to average players of every other character. Therefore Kirby has a moderate learning curve.

The tier list can only be decided by the absolute peak of the metagame, because that is what we know the maximum potential of each character is. It's the only real objective data we have! The levels below the top tell us only how easy it is to approach the top level with a character, as shown above. Here's a crappy MS Paint chart, not at all to scale:

Therefore I believe that the tier list, representing the top of the metagame, should be almost exclusively based on tournament placings by the best for each character. This means that the best character of the best player is the best character in the game, because no other character can beat them. A matchup chart representing the top of the metagame should be based exclusively on tournament matches, or money matches if necessary, among the best for each character. Hypotheticals and "Super Theory Brothers" should not factor into it at all. If you want to make a matchup chart for the average player using hypotheticals, and a corresponding tier list, that's fine, but you should make it clear that it is not a tier list or matchup chart in the traditional sense and does not represent the current "metagame" as the term is traditionally used.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Therefore I believe that the tier list, representing the top of the metagame, should be almost exclusively based on tournament placings by the best for each character.

No, why?

Hypotheticals and "Super Theory Brothers" should not factor into it at all. If you want to make a matchup chart for the average player using hypotheticals, and a corresponding tier list, that's fine, but you should make it clear that it is not a tier list or matchup chart in the traditional sense and does not represent the current "metagame" as the term is traditionally used.

Why shouldn't it factor? Are you saying discussion and legitimate facts and tactics are completely void and we should only look at tourney placings?

And since when is the "traditional" term of all of this using tourney placings only?

 

[JPOBS]

i just went back and watched the Fast 1 set between m2k and shiz

as of summer 2008, fast 1, running powershields->wd oos was not a big part of m2k's (marth) games vs falco. he did use wavedash oos sparringly to escape sheild pressure though

fast forward a year and a half, and running PS -> wd oos is a staple of pretty much everyone when facing falcos now.

im not saying that its a game changing mechanic, but i think we generally underestimate how certain tactics have become more popular and more efficient even thoguh they've been around forever.

people use the arguement that "______ isnt played any different than as a char than they ever ever, _____ still uses the same techniques that we've seen for 2 years so the teir list doesnt need to be changed"

As true as that is, even though new things havent been discovered, we cant deny how increased utility of even old techniques has a effect on the metagame.

like m2k vs mango at pound 3. on corneria, the famous arwing rest. He jab->reset to grab -> upthrow. Why didnt mango just jab reset to rest right there? game over.
Fastforward to today and if that happened again, mango/hbox would have for sure gone for the rest right away because an upthrow was way to risky. any other tech other than an inplace tech on that arwing would have saved m2k but mango got lucky/made a great read.

my point is in the end, there hasnt been any revolutionary tactics to be uncovered since this tier list was made, but its pretty obvious that there have been changes/advancements in old techniques that have led to differences in todays metagame imo and thats why the list needs a revamp imo.

 

[john!]

Why shouldn't it factor? Are you saying discussion and legitimate facts and tactics are completely void and we should only look at tourney placings?

If we're measuring how well characters do in tournament, them yes, they are completely void until someone actually uses them.

And since when is the "traditional" term of all of this using tourney placings only?

By "traditional" I mean "referring to the top of the metagame".

 

[null55]

Therefore I believe that the tier list, representing the top of the metagame, should be almost exclusively based on tournament placings by the best for each character. This means that the best character of the best player is the best character in the game, because no other character can beat them. A matchup chart representing the top of the metagame should be based exclusively on tournament matches, or money matches if necessary, among the best for each character. Hypotheticals and "Super Theory Brothers" should not factor into it at all. If you want to make a matchup chart for the average player using hypotheticals, and a corresponding tier list, that's fine, but you should make it clear that it is not a tier list or matchup chart in the traditional sense and does not represent the current "metagame" as the term is traditionally used.

and this would only be an issue if there was previously a player who was better than the current one. which is (1) hard/impossible to make a case for without inui logic, so it shouldn't really change anyway, and (2) IMO definitely not the case for our current generation in competitive Melee Brothers.

 

[x After Dawn x]

If we're measuring how well characters do in tournament, them yes, they are completely void until someone actually uses them.



By "traditional" I mean "referring to the top of the metagame".

a) don't use inui logic into graphs, that's just stupid.

b) don't make a tier list as a direct reflection of tourney placings.

 

[Lordydennek]

Peach is not second best. (say the period out loud after this sentence.) Idk why M2K didnt use his sheik against Armada. I think he would have won.

 

[john!]

a) don't use inui logic into graphs, that's just stupid.

b) don't make a tier list as a direct reflection of tourney placings.

Yes, sir... Really, though, giving valid arguments might help your case.

Peach is not second best. (say the period out loud after this sentence.) Idk why M2K didnt use his sheik against Armada. I think he would have won.

If Armada is capable of beating everyone except Mango's Jigglypuff (he might not be, but let's assume he is) then it's entirely reasonable to assume that yes, Peach is the second best character in the game. A "perfect" Fox would beat him, but that's not realistic and has no effect on the tier list.

 

[Lordydennek]

Id like to see M2ks shiek against her honestly. And if Mute City is banned, which i hear rumors that it will be, then I say that peach and jiggs wont be at the top. especially not peach

 

[Devil Ray]

hmmm, i agree with some of what john said. if other ppl could replicate what armada did at genesis, then i could see peach moving up.

only problem is that armada isn't invincible against anyone not named mango. placings can go up and down like crazy. and i still think m2k could beat armada. shiz got mad close too.

the tier list is trendy, but there's a lot more to it than just placings or who's on top. it's not easy figuring out what characters are capable of.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lmao puff has a pretty shallow learning curve. What do you have to learn? how long her foot is and how to empty full hop and bair if they enter your zone.... if you hit them off the stage follow and keep hitting.

btw john, all your "logic" in your post was full of non-logic and blatant wrong information.

and why are people suddenly going into "tier list = tournament results" mode after i just said that its not and provided some reasonable reasons why?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Armada is capable of beating everyone except Mango's Jigglypuff (he might not be, but let's assume he is) then it's entirely reasonable to assume that yes, Peach is the second best character in the game. A "perfect" Fox would beat him, but that's not realistic and has no effect on the tier list.

*expl odes*

 

[Lordydennek]

Link for Mid tier???? sorry just had to say it. And I'm serious too. I believe he's got way more power than he's given credit for.