Official MBR Tier List

[adumbrodeus]

These types of statements just baffle me. I guess in bigtime tournaments, with hundreds if not thousands of dollars on the line, people are still just too darn stubborn and won't play her properly.

Nothing, let alone fighting puff, is as simple as "camp and win". There's just no johns about it when puff is placing very high and most notably winning tournaments. This isn't 2007, nobody is sleeping on jiggs anymore, she's just good.

Also, if you do not have a % lead you can't just camp or not approach.

I'm not saying it's simple, but in general, I see fox players being too aggressive, laser camp is the way to go.

I realize that part of it is playing really defensively is a skill, still more defensive improves the situation considerably.


Also, fox gets the percent lead really easily because of his lasers, and even without it lasers often force approaches.

 

[Niko45]

In every fox vs jiggs vid I've ever seen, the fox laser camps and gets *****.

 

[Mogwai]

watch ColBol vs. HBox

 

[SonuvaBeach]

M2K - Ur the only one doing well with Marth or Sheik. They are consistently slaughtered in tournament placing by spacies/puff and even freakin CFalcon. I just don't want to hear the theory etc etc because when applied to reality these are the results for the current metagame.

Their placings doesn't change the matchups they hold with the characters. Marth still goes ~even with fox and falco as well as sheik. They are definitely right behind fox/falco and maybe puff though on the tier list and above peach/falcon/everyone else. Not sure if you were implying otherwise or not, just stating.

M2k - not good enough to tell you what your doing wrong. You do get punished for shooting lasers often too close.

 

[Niko45]

Interesting, he does laser him when he has a stock lead. It looks like its basically a response to jiggs baiting him to come near the edge.

He's getting those stock leads without lasers tho.

I mean surely no one would argue that the reason puff is winning so much is because people aren't laser camping her, right?

 

[EC_Joey]

In every fox vs jiggs vid I've ever seen, the fox laser camps and gets *****.

I saw SwiftBass vs. Darc in person at GameUnicon. IIRC the first stage was FD and Swift 3 stocked him, at one point taking Darc from 0-death while not taking any damage himself. Pretty much the most impressive laser camping I've ever seen.

Interesting, he does laser him when he has a stock lead. It looks like its basically a response to jiggs baiting him to come near the edge.

He's getting those stock leads without lasers tho.

I mean surely no one would argue that the reason puff is winning so much is because people aren't laser camping her, right?

Lasers don't kill, it's the rest of your game that does that. Lasers are mainly for baiting, forcing Jiggs to approach. Too many Fox players just fall for Jigg's tricks, jumping into those moves she throws out, and not punishing approaches.

 

[Mogwai]

Swift is too goot vs. Jiggs.

 

[Niko45]

Their placings doesn't change the matchups they hold with the characters. Marth still goes ~even with fox and falco as well as sheik. They are definitely right behind fox/falco and maybe puff though on the tier list and above peach/falcon/everyone else. Not sure if you were implying otherwise or not, just stating.

My whole point is that this type of overanalysis should not be included in the tier list discussion. Ur focusing on matchups within the outdated top tier list, which is pointless since we are questioning the whole list. At a big tournament there are at least 15 possible characters you may fight in tournament, so just focusing on the top tiers means nothing.

But I'll indulge you by disagreeing with those matchup ratings. Marth and Sheik don't have good matchups. Marth is awful vs sheik and Ganon/Puff/CF are all very tricky. Sheik struggles with fox/puff/ICs. They are both neutral at best vs spacies and puff and only sheik has a really strong matchup (marth).

 

[Cosmo!]

so someone please explain Fox vs Jiggs to me then. If Fox Nairs jiggs fair beats it LIKE EVERY SINGLE TIME (when Hbox does it). Fox's bair is risky cuz Jiggs bair has more range and pound can trade with it then if you don't tech (which can easily happen since you're already pressing L or R to l-cancel making you automatically miss the tech) you get jab->rested and you die

I would really appreciate if we could all go over Fox vs Jiggs IN DETAIL before Winterfest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roJaxU9AWb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPX_zM3TLes

etc etc. I have a ton of matches, I have a bunch of sets from TO5 and Herb2 (although I think one of the sets from herb2 weren't uploaded not sure). Anyway I would greatly appreciate if before winterfest, you guys could study these videos and tell me as much as possible everything that I'm doing wrong or habits I should get rid of or habits of his I should exploit.

you died from spot dodging a couple times, then got grabbed and thrown either off the stage or into a rest. spot dodging is clearly terrible vs jiggs

in the matches you lost it seems you weren't using anything but nair, uair, and bair as your kill moves, when theres usmash and the safer utilt to use as well

 

[St. Viers]

My whole point is that this type of overanalysis should not be included in the tier list discussion. Ur focusing on matchups within the outdated top tier list, which is pointless since we are questioning the whole list. At a big tournament there are at least 15 possible characters you may fight in tournament, so just focusing on the top tiers means nothing.

But I'll indulge you by disagreeing with those matchup ratings. Marth and Sheik don't have good matchups. Marth is awful vs sheik and Ganon/Puff/CF are all very tricky. Sheik struggles with fox/puff/ICs. They are both neutral at best vs spacies and puff and only sheik has a really strong matchup (marth).

Except that tier lists are not simply tourney results. Also, Marth goes even spacies, loses to sheik, and should go even/slightly advantaged over the other 3 you mentioned. Sheik is slightly disadvantaged against the space animals (falco moreso than fox), beats marth, and continues down the list to beat every other character in the game.

On the other hand, fox and falco, although very good, and punished for their mistakes much harder than marth/sheik are. Most chars have CGs on the spacies, and once offstage they pretty much have no options.* Unlike marth and sheik, who have ways of deterring edge guarding.

 

[Scar]

cosmo if foxes don't dodge they get grabbed

so the idea is dodge to evade the grab

what jiggs then does is waits for the dodge and grabs

it's not that dodging is bad it's that you can't be predictable in melee in general, the only difference is that fox vs jiggs in practice jiggs kills you for it regardless of % or how minor your predictability was

 

[Cosmo!]

cosmo if foxes don't dodge they get grabbed

so the idea is dodge to evade the grab

what jiggs then does is waits for the dodge and grabs

it's not that dodging is bad it's that you can't be predictable in melee in general, the only difference is that fox vs jiggs in practice jiggs kills you for it regardless of % or how minor your predictability was

I think instead of spot dodging he should roll or jump, which wouldn't give jiggs a rest/edgeguard opportunity as easily

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mew2King

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gox777#p/u/3/rerzrhDMNDc

Start at 3:03

You're the matchup correctly except those two times you jump in on her and your moves trade because you spaced them on the same horizontal plane as Puff's move

In general you jump in too much and at bad times

You also seem to get desperate for the KO and u-smash randomly and then you get gimped a lot

 

[Niko45]

Except that tier lists are not simply tourney results. Also, Marth goes even spacies, loses to sheik, and should go even/slightly advantaged over the other 3 you mentioned. Sheik is slightly disadvantaged against the space animals (falco moreso than fox), beats marth, and continues down the list to beat every other character in the game.

On the other hand, fox and falco, although very good, and punished for their mistakes much harder than marth/sheik are. Most chars have CGs on the spacies, and once offstage they pretty much have no options.* Unlike marth and sheik, who have ways of deterring edge guarding.

Except everything you just said is also based on outdated conventional wisdom, which should likewise be updated alongside the tier list. Why would a new tier list be based on old matchup theory?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think instead of spot dodging he should roll or jump, which wouldn't give jiggs a rest/edgeguard opportunity as easily

Shine defeats everything.

 

[St. Viers]

Except everything you just said is also based on outdated conventional wisdom, which should likewise be updated alongside the tier list. Why would a new tier list be based on old matchup theory?

Please explain how it's outdated? Did fox and falco manage to suddenly not get chaingrabbed? Did they suddenly gain invincibility for their upB? Please explain how it's no longer true, rather than simply claiming that it isn't.

 

[Mogwai]

Please explain how it's outdated? Did fox and falco manage to suddenly not get chaingrabbed? Did they suddenly gain invincibility for their upB? Please explain how it's no longer true, rather than simply claiming that it isn't.

they make fewer mistakes and no longer get grabbed half as often as they used to. they're also smarter about their recovery. the issue is that old Sheik/Marth play was fairly refined while Spacy play was still rough around the edges. Fox and Falco have grown where they needed to and meanwhile, Sheik and Marth have gone pretty much nowhere. Perhaps there are untapped facets to their games, but as things have fleshed out, Spacies don't fall for their lame **** anymore and don't miss l-cancels.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its good to see m2k preparing for war

 

[Scidadle]

I can't wait to get 4stocked by m2k at winterfest.

Gonna be fun

 

[MarioMariox2]

M2K just remember your data and mold your meta on that. Frame-perfect matches all the time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

they make fewer mistakes and no longer get grabbed half as often as they used to. they're also smarter about their recovery. the issue is that old Sheik/Marth play was fairly refined while Spacy play was still rough around the edges. Fox and Falco have grown where they needed to and meanwhile, Sheik and Marth have gone pretty much nowhere. Perhaps there are untapped facets to their games, but as things have fleshed out, Spacies don't fall for their lame **** anymore and don't miss l-cancels.

My understanding of fox/falco vs. Marth has always been that marth has been able to force grabs, through moves that combo into grabs and through frame traps, it's never been that we expected them to make stupid mistakes and miss l cancels.


Marth still ***** their recoveries as well, he's just got too many good options on reaction.

 

[Ryan-K]

My understanding of fox/falco vs. Marth has always been that marth has been able to force grabs, through moves that combo into grabs and through frame traps, it's never been that we expected them to make stupid mistakes and miss l cancels.


Marth still ***** their recoveries as well, he's just got too many good options on reaction.

at low percents marth can only combo into grabs from grabs unless you get caught in the air. marth is only dangerous by the edge which is why dreamland is such a ****ty stage for him.

 

[KAOSTAR]

what does that really mean?

unless you get caught in the air? For the most part thats the art of comboing. Hit them into the air and do more **** to them.

if marth being only dangerous by the ledge was true then dreamland would not be a bad stage for him because it also has 2 edges. I guess that makes japes the best marth stage having 6 edges.

Dreamland is a bad stage for marth because he lacks the pure killing ppwer, he cannot control the platforms because of their height and they are longer than some stages, they also get in the way of vertical comboing, and there is a marth only glitch that just laggs up random grabs and tilts. Not to mention its large base make it easier for spacies to angle to the ledge and other to live longer. In matchups like peach and jiggs it becomes easy to get frustrating simply because killing requires more effort due to the bigger stage.

Alot of marths dont like the fact that their opponent has room to move around.

 

[x After Dawn x]

what does that really mean?

unless you get caught in the air? For the most part thats the art of comboing. Hit them into the air and do more **** to them.

if marth being only dangerous by the ledge was true then dreamland would not be a bad stage for him because it also has 2 edges. I guess that makes japes the best marth stage having 6 edges.

Dreamland is a bad stage for marth because he lacks the pure killing ppwer, he cannot control the platforms because of their height and they are longer than some stages, they also get in the way of vertical comboing, and there is a marth only glitch that just laggs up random grabs and tilts. Not to mention its large base make it easier for spacies to angle to the ledge and other to live longer. In matchups like peach and jiggs it becomes easy to get frustrating simply because killing requires more effort due to the bigger stage.

Alot of marths dont like the fact that their opponent has room to move around.

That Marth Only glitch seems fairly negligible compared to your other points, but otherwise I agree with mostly everything. Platforms get in the way of vertical comboing, but in cases like YS, they can actually help, it's just Dream Land's platforms are way too high and Marth can't do much with them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

at low percents marth can only combo into grabs from grabs unless you get caught in the air. marth is only dangerous by the edge which is why dreamland is such a ****ty stage for him.

Tippered fair I believe true combos, as does up-tilt, I need to double-check that though.


Still, frame-traps on sheild still apply, dtilt for example, fair and nair are both good (especially AC nair)


And no, it depends on what other features are there, for example it's good for platform control. Also the fact that it's really really large hurts him.

 

[Ryan-K]

cc doesnt let those combo

marth doesnt really have any shield pressure aside from running around and hitting you from really far. not enough stun

 

[adumbrodeus]

cc doesnt let those combo

marth doesnt really have any shield pressure aside from running around and hitting you from really far. not enough stun

Very little is truly guaranteed, but you do get frame advantage with nair and dtilt, and I'm pretty sure with fair too, mixing in a grab there can capitalize off that.


As far as CC, yes, CC does that to a lot of things, but if the move comes out faster then reaction time it only gets CC'ed on a read. Don't be predictable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

but if the move comes out faster then reaction time it only gets CC'ed on a read. Don't be predictable.

If they just hold down and mash buttons when they see they're going to be hit because they screwed up in some way, they'll be safe. No reading required.

Many other characters already do this. Sheik, Samus, Peach, Jiggs, Marth...

 

[adumbrodeus]

If they just hold down and mash buttons when they see they're going to be hit because they screwed up in some way, they'll be safe. No reading required.

Many other characters already do this. Sheik, Samus, Peach, Jiggs, Marth...

That's the thing, by the time they realize they're getting hit, they're well, getting hit. If people are consistently CCing you then you're being predictable and you deserve to be punished, it's like everything else.

 

[KAOSTAR]

That Marth Only glitch seems fairly negligible compared to your other points, but otherwise I agree with mostly everything. Platforms get in the way of vertical comboing, but in cases like YS, they can actually help, it's just Dream Land's platforms are way too high and Marth can't do much with them.

Either way its icing on the cake. It does happen and its similar to missing an L cancel which is very punishable.

The lag on it is significant and its highly punishable simply because you can miss a counter(not down B) and get hit with whatever you were trying to counter.

Its been happening to me alot recently, Ive hit 2 in a row. I think it just depends on the cube.

Marth does well on all the other platforms, I was referring to DL ones specifically getting in the way.
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That's the thing, by the time they realize they're getting hit, they're well, getting hit. If people are consistently CCing you then you're being predictable and you deserve to be punished, it's like everything else.

As far as Cc stopping combos, thats only if they Cc. If they dont then they can be knocked airborn.

There are plenty of times when you know you are going to get hit. Such as you do a marth Fsmash and its sidestepped at close range. You can either try to stick tech it or CC and punish by mashing on buttons while holding down. falco can easily CC and shine for an excellent punish.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought we play rock paper scissors.... saying marth only gets grabs from grabs i like saying you only get hits from other hits.

at one point or another, your opponent leaves themselves open (usually from you doing something unexpected) and you then get a hit in. Nobody (good) runs around throwing random attacks out hoping they can start a combo from there.

 

[Niko45]

CCing is like good DI so it's not about being predictable. It can be done on extremely short notice. And everyone knows they are going to be hit before they get hit or good DI wouldn't be possible.

In general, to counter the argument of "be less predictable", the point i'd make is that marth and lower tiers in general are inherently more predictable characters. A general point about high level play is that getting grabs is HARD bc good players don't get grabbed much. So a character that is overly reliant on grab without as many options for getting those grabs is at a disadvantage. I think this also largely speaks to why Falco and Puff are doing so well is bc they don't need grabs to beat you. Then the fact that their grabs are secondary concerns opens up grabs for them, making them even better.

Vs Marth everyone knows he not only wants, but needs to grab you. So they focus on not getting grabbed.

Besides all of this nonsense is the fact that Marth is placing significantly lower than other characters in major tournaments, so you can really type up all you want to theorize how marth is amazing but the results just say otherwise.

 

[Ryan-K]

That's the thing, by the time they realize they're getting hit, they're well, getting hit. If people are consistently CCing you then you're being predictable and you deserve to be punished, it's like everything else.

???

you can cc during anything except being airborne. it's not like you're just standing there waiting to get hit lol. you don't even have to react. if im sheik and im far from marth and say i do something stupid like whiff ftilt if he goes in for like a fair or something you can cc still...like ur just DIing down lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I disagree with marth being extremely predicatable, unless you mean consecutive counts of attempted ****.

He has plenty of ways to get grabs of including a large grab range. Not to mention that grabs take priority over all other moves. Marth also has alot of options out of grabs.

IMO marth is hard to play as a top professional. He is easy to be good with but hard to master.

 

[adumbrodeus]

???

you can cc during anything except being airborne. it's not like you're just standing there waiting to get hit lol. you don't even have to react. if im sheik and im far from marth and say i do something stupid like whiff ftilt if he goes in for like a fair or something you can cc still...like ur just DIing down lol.

Except fair's not the only thing he can do from that position, that's what I was getting at.

 

[Aesir]

It's not like it isn't easy for marth to grab fox out of nair or anything.

CCing is like good DI so it's not about being predictable. It can be done on extremely short notice. And everyone knows they are going to be hit before they get hit or good DI wouldn't be possible.

In general, to counter the argument of "be less predictable", the point i'd make is that marth and lower tiers in general are inherently more predictable characters. A general point about high level play is that getting grabs is HARD bc good players don't get grabbed much. So a character that is overly reliant on grab without as many options for getting those grabs is at a disadvantage. I think this also largely speaks to why Falco and Puff are doing so well is bc they don't need grabs to beat you. Then the fact that their grabs are secondary concerns opens up grabs for them, making them even better.

Vs Marth everyone knows he not only wants, but needs to grab you. So they focus on not getting grabbed.

Besides all of this nonsense is the fact that Marth is placing significantly lower than other characters in major tournaments, so you can really type up all you want to theorize how marth is amazing but the results just say otherwise.

I'LL JUST DODGE ALL OF MARFS GRABS, THAT WAY HE'LL DO BAD. THEREFORE MARTH IS BAD IN TOURNAMENTS.

 

[Doc71890]

tier lists are for scrubs, fox and marth will always be top 2, but if your good you an beat their faces in with anyone

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

marth isnt that good.

 

[Mew2King]

marth is not that great he's like 5th best

i am not joking

marth vs spacies are even I just did it a bunch of times in the past, sheik and falcon **** marth, marth beats peach, marth loses to ganon slightly or goes even, marth jiggs is even i just suck *** at it (marth can't combo or gimp her or kill her until like 130% but jiggs can get an easy edge guard to rest and quick gimp if she gets in)

then when you pick non-neutrals he's screwed

 

[Zephynazo]

^ I approve of this post!

=D