john!
Smash Hero
i just want the whole world to know that you are secretly the best melee player on the planet despite your losses
-
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
leffen
Smash Champion
uh, that is the opposite LOL
Picking what character you play is one of the most skill based things this game has to offer.
Armada picking YL? That took an insane amount of work and skill.
And I even said "It wouldn't make me beat any other top player" which indicates me thinking that I'm NOT the best player in the world. Even if I could beat Armada every single time, that doesn't necessarily make me the best player (which is why I haven't done it yet)
Oh, and note the use of "free wins" and not "free win". I would still have to beat him fairly several times in each sets, but my counterpicks/possibly first game would be "free" compared to playing fox.
Picking what character you play is one of the most skill based things this game has to offer.
Armada picking YL? That took an insane amount of work and skill.
And I even said "It wouldn't make me beat any other top player" which indicates me thinking that I'm NOT the best player in the world. Even if I could beat Armada every single time, that doesn't necessarily make me the best player (which is why I haven't done it yet)
Oh, and note the use of "free wins" and not "free win". I would still have to beat him fairly several times in each sets, but my counterpicks/possibly first game would be "free" compared to playing fox.
john!
Smash Hero
have you actually tried using these characters vs. armada in tournament? are there vids? you pique my curiosity.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Do you have any good Yoshi vs. Marth vids to recommend? I'm trying to pick him up, but I just get smacked by his sword 5 times and die.
Trust me, you don't want to see Leffen's Puff.
leffen
Smash Champion
no recent vids against marth
the matchups easy once you get it though
just watch how peachs play it
the matchups easy once you get it though
just watch how peachs play it
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
off the top of my head...
MLG Vegas 06 - PC w/ fox/falco (GFs was fox dittos)
MLG Long Island 07 - M2K Fox/Marth (during the transition where he just started to play marth in tournament)
0c3 - PC w/ fox
DGDTJ - Jman w/ fox
FC10R - Mango w/ Fox/Falcon
Tournaments where fox has gotten 2nd
MLG Anaheim 06 - Ken w/ fox (PC's first victory)
MLG Vegas 06 - KDJ w/ fox/sheik (sheik vs ken, fox vs basically everyone else)
Pound 3 - M2K w/ Fox/Marth (GFs he was all fox vs mango)
DGDTJ - Lucky (GFs was fox dittos)
Genesis 2 - Mango w/ Fox/Falco
Thats just off the top of my head. Since you can't stick to the facts when making your opinions and posts, I don't consider your opinions or posts to be valid.
MountainGoat
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2012
- Messages
- 247
Mango also won Big House 2 playing pretty much only Fox iirc. But that list looks pretty weak for a character that is supposed to be the obvious best. A lot of not all Fox too.
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
like he said, off the top of his head.
he's missing a lot.
he's missing a lot.
MountainGoat
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2012
- Messages
- 247
Yeah true enough. It certainly debunks the "fox never ever ever wins nationals" claim.
john!
Smash Hero
i don't think anyone here thinks that
leffen
Smash Champion
First off all, neither of these are NATIONALS (which really means, internationals/majors) except for Genesis 2.
Secondly, no one is arguing that fox isn't a good secondary/comain, but he is NOT a good solo main (relative to popular belief at least).
At FC10R, Mango used Falcon/Falco along with his Fox
as for OC3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r4vCkbBEMQ
Honestly, doesn't it make you curious that you can find so few? And its almost always different players each time (Fox's biggest flaw is being inconsistent!)
You could take Marth, Peach, Falco and even puff and get several, CONSISTENT tournament winners.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Those very same people.you mean those same guys that had marth at 2nd and falco at 4th?
CanISmash
Smash Lord
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316388 FACTS. YOU CAN SEE EVERY TOURNEY WITH 100+ PLAYERS. Last 3 apex's no fox. last few pounds no fox. many he doesn't even break top 3. You can go by year, I'm not going to sit here and grab each tourney result so you can see fox doesn't win. Everyone knows this. you hardly posted nationals.
It seems like if someone used fox once in a matchup for a national thats evidence of fox being played and winning. Lol m2k goes fox vs mangos jiggs and all of a sudden he played fox / marth. more like 90% marth 10% fox.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah, I would say that M2K mains Marth/Sheik and plays Fox as a secondary.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I mean you can attribute some of this to not having a Fox main that's of the same caliber of player as the people that do actually win the tournaments (Mango is not a Fox main, his Fox is mostly a counterpick and Mango's Fox does win tournaments anyways, just not against Armada). It doesn't matter how good of a character Fox is, he's not going to win the big tournaments when he doesn't have a player representing that can win nationals. When you look at tournaments where there is Fox representation that's at the level of the top players at the tournament at he does quite well.
DGDTJ is a great example of this, the Fox mains Lucky and Jman were of the same caliber as the top competition at the tournament and the Foxes swept the top two. Zhu I would say was definitely in the same skill level as Jman and Lucky and Hungrybox was actually a higher caliber player than both of them (not going to count Mango since he was sandbagging).
Maybe Fox shouldn't be considered the absolute best or whatever but the talk in here seems to suggest that he's not even top tier and that there isn't even any evidence to suggest that he is.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I'm a simple man of simple words but could it just be that Fox is such a common character it makes him his own downfall? I mean prior to a match with Fox I already know what I'm getting myself into and the kind of pain I'm going to endure. But I mean if I get a match with some sick *** Mewtwo I'm not gonna know wtf is happening to me half the time.
Mahone
Smash Champion
I agree with leffen about fox being worse than peach in a tournament environment
People should talk more about real life problems with characters because i find that super interesting
One example is that puff is really mentally draining if you play her the whole tournament, because when you play non-ffers in pools or whatever, you are required to think way more than you would have to with, lets say, falco...
I remember mango talked about it once a long time ago, but its a lot harder to beat worse people with puff than other characters, if they are like sheik or fox, u can usually just gimmick them 8 times a set and not have to drain yourself, but if they are playing samus it can be a grind
I think this happens a lot with hbox and a bunch of people "almost" beating him, when in reality he is just not trying 100% and unlike falco u can't just super stomp worse people unless they fall for gimmicks
This problem is wayyyy better than fox's problem, cuz the solution that i use is to just go falco and autopilot win in pools or whatever, and then pick jiggs vs people i know i can't beat with my secondaries, and i don't really ever feel drained after a tourney
Foxes can't really do this because they NEED warmup from earilier rounds to ensure their tech skill is up to snuff BUT if they play too much i feel like it can have a negative effect and cause them to play worse so its always about finding this magical sweetspot and hoping that the timing corresponds to the mu where u need it the most
Another issue is fox's weakness is getting punished so bad when he gets hit, but ofc ideally hes good because he can avoid getting hit and move around fast and do crazy stuff...
BUT, when its like game 5 last stock last hit, all of a sudden its (for the sake of this argument) equally likely for both people to get hit, because they are playing so sloppy and when it comes down to that situation, fox is terrible because he gets punished so badly for messing up
People should talk more about real life problems with characters because i find that super interesting
One example is that puff is really mentally draining if you play her the whole tournament, because when you play non-ffers in pools or whatever, you are required to think way more than you would have to with, lets say, falco...
I remember mango talked about it once a long time ago, but its a lot harder to beat worse people with puff than other characters, if they are like sheik or fox, u can usually just gimmick them 8 times a set and not have to drain yourself, but if they are playing samus it can be a grind
I think this happens a lot with hbox and a bunch of people "almost" beating him, when in reality he is just not trying 100% and unlike falco u can't just super stomp worse people unless they fall for gimmicks
This problem is wayyyy better than fox's problem, cuz the solution that i use is to just go falco and autopilot win in pools or whatever, and then pick jiggs vs people i know i can't beat with my secondaries, and i don't really ever feel drained after a tourney
Foxes can't really do this because they NEED warmup from earilier rounds to ensure their tech skill is up to snuff BUT if they play too much i feel like it can have a negative effect and cause them to play worse so its always about finding this magical sweetspot and hoping that the timing corresponds to the mu where u need it the most
Another issue is fox's weakness is getting punished so bad when he gets hit, but ofc ideally hes good because he can avoid getting hit and move around fast and do crazy stuff...
BUT, when its like game 5 last stock last hit, all of a sudden its (for the sake of this argument) equally likely for both people to get hit, because they are playing so sloppy and when it comes down to that situation, fox is terrible because he gets punished so badly for messing up
Like I said when we talked about this in America. I don't wanna sound cocky but Leffen need to understand some things here.
Im better then you
I have more experience in the MU
Seen as more consistent
And according to you Im goodlike against Fox (basically no one else is as good against any char compared to me against Fox)
Also Im playing the char that has the advantage.
Playing a char that takes no skill to place top ten in America.
In average you take 2 games per Bo7 against me in PAL.
When you played Falco according to you Fox was WAY better but now when you play Fox he is not viable?
Another funny thing you told me when we talked about teams is that Peach/Sheik is doing alright against Puff/Samus. But Fox (not even saying Marrth or something) /Luigi is completly HORRIBLE against Fox/Falco. Not hard to figure out why you say that when AJP is the person you teamed with last tournament in Sweden
Fox is nowhere near as good against Falcon either compared to what people say according to you. Sheik is also underrated as **** against spacies according to you.
Maybe some of the things you say is true but the fact is that basically every single MU is way worse for Fox now compared to before you started playing him.
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Yo everyone sucks tho
Ecspecially marth.
Ecspecially marth.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Even fox
he only seems good because everyone else sucks worse
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I will rustle a tustle if Armada's jimmies get rustled. Fox is good but can get busted up.
leffen
Smash Champion
jeez I really don't wanna do this in english against you but fine.
prepare for a long read.
---
Im better then you
- Yes, and picking the right character is a skill that helps you become the best. You would not be "better" than me if you played pichu.
I have more experience in the MU
- I'm not arguing that the matchup isnt in fox's favor on paper, im talking about the reality. Which is why this is an argument in my favor, since there are no other good peach players while there are tons of fox ones.
Seen as more consistent
-I play Fox, how can you not see that this is one of my main arguments and you're trying to use it as yours. LOL.
And according to you Im goodlike against Fox (basically no one else is as good against any char compared to me against Fox)
- And one of the reasons for this is that you play a character which is easy to be consistent with, and that outrank everyone in experience by ten times. (This is m2k biggest flaws compared to you : he still loses to foxes at times, and he doesnt have an experience advantage)
Also Im playing the char that has the advantage
-That is talking OVERALL, not individual matches. As I get more experience over playing you more and more the matchup gets more even since you no longer have as big of a experience advantage. In the absolute majority of cases, Fox is gonna have a disadvantage against fox, at least in pal, because of how the metagame/circumstances currently is.
Playing a char that takes no skill to place top ten in America.
-That was obviously an exaggeration, but yes, peach does take less skill to place in the top 10 area with than most. I said and I will again that its breaking the top 5 thats really hard.
In average you take 2 games per Bo7 against me in PAL.
-And I've never ever taken a single set. Taking games with a character whos main problem is consistency just helps my point. Its altho worth to note that I may just be way better at you on Pokemon stadium or that the matchup is just hard there. Are you honestly trying to imply that a 100% win rate is SOMEHOW proves that the matchup is in fox's favor?
When you played Falco according to you Fox was WAY better but now when you play Fox he is not viable?
I NEVER said that Fox is not viable, and I constantly talk about how the top 6 characters are really more about preference and varying circumstances than one character being the better pick for everyone.
Fox is better, on paper/in theory tier lists, which was what I was ALWAYS talking about then. I never considered practicality and we were always talking about a "fantasy" metagame (in the future looking). I've also several times said that I'm not sure if I think Fox is better in PAL, since I don't think hes that much better even in NTSC.
Its also worth to note that there has been several "anti fox" techniques getting more and more use and I've found lots of these myself (that I'm obviously not mentioning to anyone but a few certain people so they don't get used against me)
Oh, and my placement of Falco has also fallen since I stopped maining him, so your idea of me just underrating the character I main is just stupid (just look at how highly i place yoshi god dammit)
Another funny thing you told me when we talked about teams is that Peach/Sheik is doing alright against Puff/Samus. But Fox (not even saying Marrth or something) /Luigi is completly HORRIBLE against Fox/Falco.
This is stupid. You can't be serious. We weren't "talking about teams", it was you who were going on your normal Puff rant and complaining over how IMPOSSIBLE the matchup is for Sheik/Peach in teams. I then said that "I don't think its that bad" and then you continued to talk about how both of the characters are COUNTERED by puff (lol what about samus?) and then I said that its nothing to complain about.
When you again, argued against it I said "Dude, I team with a LUIGI, and I never complain about our matchups" and then you went on saying how its not as bad as sheik/peach against puff, and when I said that Fox/Falco vs Fox/Luigi is worse you went LOL NO WAY NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Here comes the most hilarious line:Not hard to figure out why you say that when AJP is the person you teamed with last tournament in Sweden
WHATTTT. COME ON ARMADA. Anyone with a brain can see that Luigi/Fox is a wayyyy worse team than Sheik/peach, but because I teamed with AJP a single tournament that makes my opinion invalid and just "bias"? Do I seriously need to remind you that you've been playing Peach Sheik at every single tournament for at least 5 years?YOU are the one who has buttloads of bias up your ***, and you're accusing me of being biased? HILARIOUS.
Fox is nowhere near as good against Falcon either compared to what people say according to you. Sheik is also underrated as **** against spacies according to you.
I have ALWAYS talked about the Fox-Falcon matchup not being that bad, even back when I was just starting out. You could find proof of me saying this 3 years ago.
I have no idea where you got the "sheik is underrated as **** against spacies" either. That was a long time ago, and that was when loads of people still thought that Fox/Falco beat Sheik like 60-40... which is clearly not the case and you also agree with this yourself.
Maybe some of the things you say is true but the fact is that basically every single MU is way worse for Fox now compared to before you started playing him.
Thats because I was talking about in theory before, which I no longer am. Talking about melee in a vacuum doesn't help a player AT ALL, which is what tier lists are supposed to do.
prepare for a long read.
---
Im better then you
- Yes, and picking the right character is a skill that helps you become the best. You would not be "better" than me if you played pichu.
I have more experience in the MU
- I'm not arguing that the matchup isnt in fox's favor on paper, im talking about the reality. Which is why this is an argument in my favor, since there are no other good peach players while there are tons of fox ones.
Seen as more consistent
-I play Fox, how can you not see that this is one of my main arguments and you're trying to use it as yours. LOL.
And according to you Im goodlike against Fox (basically no one else is as good against any char compared to me against Fox)
- And one of the reasons for this is that you play a character which is easy to be consistent with, and that outrank everyone in experience by ten times. (This is m2k biggest flaws compared to you : he still loses to foxes at times, and he doesnt have an experience advantage)
Also Im playing the char that has the advantage
-That is talking OVERALL, not individual matches. As I get more experience over playing you more and more the matchup gets more even since you no longer have as big of a experience advantage. In the absolute majority of cases, Fox is gonna have a disadvantage against fox, at least in pal, because of how the metagame/circumstances currently is.
Playing a char that takes no skill to place top ten in America.
-That was obviously an exaggeration, but yes, peach does take less skill to place in the top 10 area with than most. I said and I will again that its breaking the top 5 thats really hard.
In average you take 2 games per Bo7 against me in PAL.
-And I've never ever taken a single set. Taking games with a character whos main problem is consistency just helps my point. Its altho worth to note that I may just be way better at you on Pokemon stadium or that the matchup is just hard there. Are you honestly trying to imply that a 100% win rate is SOMEHOW proves that the matchup is in fox's favor?
When you played Falco according to you Fox was WAY better but now when you play Fox he is not viable?
I NEVER said that Fox is not viable, and I constantly talk about how the top 6 characters are really more about preference and varying circumstances than one character being the better pick for everyone.
Fox is better, on paper/in theory tier lists, which was what I was ALWAYS talking about then. I never considered practicality and we were always talking about a "fantasy" metagame (in the future looking). I've also several times said that I'm not sure if I think Fox is better in PAL, since I don't think hes that much better even in NTSC.
Its also worth to note that there has been several "anti fox" techniques getting more and more use and I've found lots of these myself (that I'm obviously not mentioning to anyone but a few certain people so they don't get used against me)
Oh, and my placement of Falco has also fallen since I stopped maining him, so your idea of me just underrating the character I main is just stupid (just look at how highly i place yoshi god dammit)
Another funny thing you told me when we talked about teams is that Peach/Sheik is doing alright against Puff/Samus. But Fox (not even saying Marrth or something) /Luigi is completly HORRIBLE against Fox/Falco.
This is stupid. You can't be serious. We weren't "talking about teams", it was you who were going on your normal Puff rant and complaining over how IMPOSSIBLE the matchup is for Sheik/Peach in teams. I then said that "I don't think its that bad" and then you continued to talk about how both of the characters are COUNTERED by puff (lol what about samus?) and then I said that its nothing to complain about.
When you again, argued against it I said "Dude, I team with a LUIGI, and I never complain about our matchups" and then you went on saying how its not as bad as sheik/peach against puff, and when I said that Fox/Falco vs Fox/Luigi is worse you went LOL NO WAY NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Here comes the most hilarious line:Not hard to figure out why you say that when AJP is the person you teamed with last tournament in Sweden
WHATTTT. COME ON ARMADA. Anyone with a brain can see that Luigi/Fox is a wayyyy worse team than Sheik/peach, but because I teamed with AJP a single tournament that makes my opinion invalid and just "bias"? Do I seriously need to remind you that you've been playing Peach Sheik at every single tournament for at least 5 years?YOU are the one who has buttloads of bias up your ***, and you're accusing me of being biased? HILARIOUS.
Fox is nowhere near as good against Falcon either compared to what people say according to you. Sheik is also underrated as **** against spacies according to you.
I have ALWAYS talked about the Fox-Falcon matchup not being that bad, even back when I was just starting out. You could find proof of me saying this 3 years ago.
I have no idea where you got the "sheik is underrated as **** against spacies" either. That was a long time ago, and that was when loads of people still thought that Fox/Falco beat Sheik like 60-40... which is clearly not the case and you also agree with this yourself.
Maybe some of the things you say is true but the fact is that basically every single MU is way worse for Fox now compared to before you started playing him.
Thats because I was talking about in theory before, which I no longer am. Talking about melee in a vacuum doesn't help a player AT ALL, which is what tier lists are supposed to do.
Im better then you:
Yeah I agree. But trying to make it sound like Peach is a better choice is something I do not agree with. Mostly because Fox has way better MU spread.
I have more experience in the MU :
How is it in your favor? If Im the only good Peach then it makes my argument even stronger cause then it basically is impossible for anyone to have the same ammount of experience in the MU as I have.
Seen as more consistent:
Yeah I know you are playing Fox. The fact you in average take two games with a char that is "impossible to be consistent with" is making my point even stronger. If you play a char that is way harder to be consistent with in combination with having a bad MU/less experience in the MU and also is a worse player why are you CONSISTENTLY taking 2 games from me in tournament?
If you do not try to make it sound like you are better then me overall you kinda lost this one.
And according to you Im goodlike against Fox (basically no one else is as good against any char compared to me against Fox)
So the reason Im goodlike against Fox is because Peach is easy to play?
This proves my point even more. The fact I do consistently drop games is proving my point even more.
Playing a char that takes no skill to place top ten in America.
Yeah with people having less experience against Peach is a good argument for her being easier. BUT you always seems to forget that the fact Fox is having WAY better MU spread is also a really strong argument for Fox/other chars that is having a better MU spread then Peach has.
In average you take 2 games per Bo7 against me in PAL.
Except for a very few players over the past 3,5 years I do have 100% winning ratio against ALL of them. Does that argument work for Peach having advantage in all MUs then?
You seem to have a very big problem to actually look at if from a player perspective rather then "results logic"
When you played Falco according to you Fox was WAY better but now when you play Fox he is not viable?
"I am, however, considering if its worth it to stick with Fox. Fox is just a terrible ****ing tournament character, especially in PAL. I think its time to face the truth. EVERYTHING speaks for Fox just being a really bad character to single handedly main"
Well at least that sounds like Fox is not worth playing
From what I remember you did not talk about "on paper" all the time. A lot of this discussion have also been in reality/not on paper. So no I do not agree with what you are trying to say here.
Yeah but for example Falco was completly horrible against Peach when you played him. Nowadays you say he is 10 times easier then Fox and the MU is "way easier" then you remember it was. The fact you have Yoshi really high is actually not that proves your point because you never play him against really good people. That means you are not losing/do not need to whine about it.
And all Fox MUs being way worse according to you is something that speaks for me, not you.
Another funny thing you told me when we talked about teams is that Peach/Sheik is doing alright against Puff/Samus. But Fox (not even saying Marrth or something) /Luigi is completly HORRIBLE against Fox/Falco.
Yeah we were talking about teams. And when we started to talk about this specific topic yes I said I think Peach/Sheik is horrible against Puff/Samus. Samus have disadvantage against both Peach/Sheik but the fact that no one can kill them fast or punish rest in a good way is some out of 1000 things why I think like I does.
YOU NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT MUs?
Come on you are the one that consistently complain most in this community. 3 Second after WF last tournament in Sweden you complained about how terrible Fox/Luigi is and how they get super countred against Peach/Sheik. I think you showed some really bad sportmanship that time too but I did not wanna make a big deal of it. But when you actually are lying like that I have to mention it.
:Not hard to figure out why you say that when AJP is the person you teamed with last tournament in Sweden
I have never ever said Fox/Luigi is a better team then Peach/Sheik. I do think Peach/Sheik is a better team. I do not agree with Fox/Luigi having a worse time against Fox/Falco then Peach/Sheik agaianst Puff/Samus but that dosen't, in any way, proves that I think Peach/Sheik overall is worse as a team when I clearly thinks otherwise.
Yeah you are way more biased then me. If you consider it funny it's up to you but that is clearly the case. I will just tell you that when I started playing Peach I did not agree with her being "not able to win nationals" and tons of bull**** people were talking about before I showed up. I will be honest here and by that I mean I changed the view people had on Peach. Just because I don't agree with everyone that looks at results only does not mean Im biased. Im biased like everyone else but you talk about it like Im extremly biased in all situations which clearly is not the case.
Long time ago?
Well if 2-3 months is a very long time then I agree. I have never heard you taking those words back anyway so I assumed you still had the same opinion.
I do think Sheik lose solidly against both spacies so I do not agree with you on this one.
Yeah I agree. But trying to make it sound like Peach is a better choice is something I do not agree with. Mostly because Fox has way better MU spread.
I have more experience in the MU :
How is it in your favor? If Im the only good Peach then it makes my argument even stronger cause then it basically is impossible for anyone to have the same ammount of experience in the MU as I have.
Seen as more consistent:
Yeah I know you are playing Fox. The fact you in average take two games with a char that is "impossible to be consistent with" is making my point even stronger. If you play a char that is way harder to be consistent with in combination with having a bad MU/less experience in the MU and also is a worse player why are you CONSISTENTLY taking 2 games from me in tournament?
If you do not try to make it sound like you are better then me overall you kinda lost this one.
And according to you Im goodlike against Fox (basically no one else is as good against any char compared to me against Fox)
So the reason Im goodlike against Fox is because Peach is easy to play?
This proves my point even more. The fact I do consistently drop games is proving my point even more.
Playing a char that takes no skill to place top ten in America.
Yeah with people having less experience against Peach is a good argument for her being easier. BUT you always seems to forget that the fact Fox is having WAY better MU spread is also a really strong argument for Fox/other chars that is having a better MU spread then Peach has.
In average you take 2 games per Bo7 against me in PAL.
Except for a very few players over the past 3,5 years I do have 100% winning ratio against ALL of them. Does that argument work for Peach having advantage in all MUs then?
You seem to have a very big problem to actually look at if from a player perspective rather then "results logic"
When you played Falco according to you Fox was WAY better but now when you play Fox he is not viable?
"I am, however, considering if its worth it to stick with Fox. Fox is just a terrible ****ing tournament character, especially in PAL. I think its time to face the truth. EVERYTHING speaks for Fox just being a really bad character to single handedly main"
Well at least that sounds like Fox is not worth playing
From what I remember you did not talk about "on paper" all the time. A lot of this discussion have also been in reality/not on paper. So no I do not agree with what you are trying to say here.
Yeah but for example Falco was completly horrible against Peach when you played him. Nowadays you say he is 10 times easier then Fox and the MU is "way easier" then you remember it was. The fact you have Yoshi really high is actually not that proves your point because you never play him against really good people. That means you are not losing/do not need to whine about it.
And all Fox MUs being way worse according to you is something that speaks for me, not you.
Another funny thing you told me when we talked about teams is that Peach/Sheik is doing alright against Puff/Samus. But Fox (not even saying Marrth or something) /Luigi is completly HORRIBLE against Fox/Falco.
Yeah we were talking about teams. And when we started to talk about this specific topic yes I said I think Peach/Sheik is horrible against Puff/Samus. Samus have disadvantage against both Peach/Sheik but the fact that no one can kill them fast or punish rest in a good way is some out of 1000 things why I think like I does.
YOU NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT MUs?
Come on you are the one that consistently complain most in this community. 3 Second after WF last tournament in Sweden you complained about how terrible Fox/Luigi is and how they get super countred against Peach/Sheik. I think you showed some really bad sportmanship that time too but I did not wanna make a big deal of it. But when you actually are lying like that I have to mention it.
:Not hard to figure out why you say that when AJP is the person you teamed with last tournament in Sweden
I have never ever said Fox/Luigi is a better team then Peach/Sheik. I do think Peach/Sheik is a better team. I do not agree with Fox/Luigi having a worse time against Fox/Falco then Peach/Sheik agaianst Puff/Samus but that dosen't, in any way, proves that I think Peach/Sheik overall is worse as a team when I clearly thinks otherwise.
Yeah you are way more biased then me. If you consider it funny it's up to you but that is clearly the case. I will just tell you that when I started playing Peach I did not agree with her being "not able to win nationals" and tons of bull**** people were talking about before I showed up. I will be honest here and by that I mean I changed the view people had on Peach. Just because I don't agree with everyone that looks at results only does not mean Im biased. Im biased like everyone else but you talk about it like Im extremly biased in all situations which clearly is not the case.
Long time ago?
Well if 2-3 months is a very long time then I agree. I have never heard you taking those words back anyway so I assumed you still had the same opinion.
I do think Sheik lose solidly against both spacies so I do not agree with you on this one.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
When i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, i thought that i'd never be able to laugh so hard at written text ever again. Then I saw leffens posts.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I think falco is way better than fox against most of the top important characters, and easier for consistency since his SH is 2 frames slower
and fox is way better in teams and way better vs peach
armada i don't think sheik solidly loses to fox i have said for years i think its even
im not saying im necessarily right i could be wrong, but i think its 50 50
peach/sheik is horrible vs puff/samus compared to fox/peach, because there are many opportunities to get KOs from team combos or just randomly since they are both floaty
i still think fox can **** peach in ntsc cuz of his speed/power; pal i could see peach winning though barely but idk.
and fox is way better in teams and way better vs peach
armada i don't think sheik solidly loses to fox i have said for years i think its even
im not saying im necessarily right i could be wrong, but i think its 50 50
peach/sheik is horrible vs puff/samus compared to fox/peach, because there are many opportunities to get KOs from team combos or just randomly since they are both floaty
i still think fox can **** peach in ntsc cuz of his speed/power; pal i could see peach winning though barely but idk.
leffen
Smash Champion
Armada, I don't have time to read/reply atm, so lets just do this IRL next time instead, this is such an in optimal way of discussing anyway, too many misunderstandings.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Mahone brings some good points to the table. I think others have basically been saying the same things, but it's a good and clear post, nevertheless.
Fletch
Smash Master
What are your thoughts on Falco vs Peach and Marth vs Peach now? Just want to know ratios. I think Falco would be the clear best if the Peach matchup didn't look so bad; I still think he's #1 in realistic terms, but Fox still has better matchups overall. No one can play him consistently enough though still, everyone knows how to fight him, and against the most prevalent characters, his ratios are only good, not obnoxiously great.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
That would be cool, but when would you play Yoshi? When you're facing someone who has handling Fox down to a science, like hbox maybe? (Certain stages like fountain?)
Pretty much he is good at spacing in all, but if you're in his face you can CC, and if you're far he can wiff. Tippers will screw you over, but once you get in, you can beat on him (like pretty much every char does) Definitely one of Yoshis better MUs.Do you have any good Yoshi vs. Marth vids to recommend? I'm trying to pick him up, but I just get smacked by his sword 5 times and die.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You can beat on bad Marths but a Marth who knows that MU (somehow) is gonna wreck yo' *** imo
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Grim Tuesday! Do you still main Samus? I noticed you were still logged as a Samus main in the official Samus player thread.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I do think that ease of play and ease of consistency play a large factor, especially in long, large tournaments. Even 6-7 years ago I thought Fox beat Peach but that it was so stressful a matchup, that Peach ends up winning a lot of the time.
I think it's funny how difficulty of play should really not be a factor for a game that is over a decade old, but somehow it still is. <3 Melee.
Also, someone should make a movie like Crank with Jason Statham, except, instead of andrenaline, he needs HYPE to survive. Then, for a comical scene, the antagonist forces Jason to watch Brawl while tied to a chair and gagged.
I think it's funny how difficulty of play should really not be a factor for a game that is over a decade old, but somehow it still is. <3 Melee.
Also, someone should make a movie like Crank with Jason Statham, except, instead of andrenaline, he needs HYPE to survive. Then, for a comical scene, the antagonist forces Jason to watch Brawl while tied to a chair and gagged.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Why have I heard that like three times now? Not even clever... Why steal it?
Stevo
Smash Champion
because iRobinhoood has it in his signature and it ends with "said no one ever"
I play with PewPewU often and even though he's a better player than me he thinks the MU is even or slightly in Yoshi's favor.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Yoshi vs Marth is my best, and fave MU.. I hope I get a Marth bracket one of these tourneys.. Yoshi v Marth is much easier for yoshi then people may want to believe..
Yoshi v Marth is much easier for yoshi then people may want to believe.. 
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Did I play Marth vs you? I forget.. lol.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I do not. You'll find me in the character main thread for like... half the characters in this game lol
I use Peach, Fox, Falco, Ice Climbers, Sheik or Marth depending on my mood.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Roger that thanks for the update!