Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Habefiet]

Sometimes I wonder what some of the super-duper results-only people would do RE: Puff if Hbox retired or started playing a lot worse out of nowhere or something.

Just something to think about: Solo Peach still has yet to win an American major / a mega-international / whatever, a Genesis/Pound/Apex level tournament. Sure, solo Fox hasn't won anything in years... but solo Peach hasn't either

... Man it's been almost two years since Pound V AKA the last time Armada lost a tourney AKA the last time someone won a mega-international using only one character... God at this tourney every single player in the top six used more than one character in bracket at some point except Shroomed (I think--he never used Sheik/Marth in singles, did he?). Is that normal? Certainly at most majors HBox and PP never change off characters. When's the last time there was this much counterpicking?

 

[leffen]

Armada won Smashers Reunion going solo peach ;o

Theres a large difference between Armada having to not play a single player to win with only peach and m2k/mango not having to play a single non floaty

 

[S l o X]

numbers leffen, numbers.

 

[Habefiet]

Armada won Smashers Reunion going solo peach ;o

Theres a large difference between Armada having to not play a single player to win with only peach and m2k/mango not having to play a single non floaty

I was referring specifically to mega-sexy-American-super-ultra-extreme-tourneys. :D But I do see your point.

Still, for people that want Peach to go above Marth... what's the answer for Puff. Or are y'all taking the rareness of Puff into account on that one

 

[leffen]

I find talking melee in a vacuum aka tier lists less and less interesting and talking about whats practically better much more interesting.


I still have a technique for peach that will help her a decent amount in the matchup that I have yet to show armada, however keep in mind that M2K vs Mangos(or any) fox makes the matchup look like its terrible, and armada has zero puff experience, no **** hes gonna lose to hbox with peach.

I think Peach/Marth or Peach/Fox is one of the best duos to play

 

[Habefiet]

Eh, fair's fair.

 

[Browny]

How long have you cared about melee results exactly? I mean, other than just talking empirically from what I can see from playing as and against fox, there are quite a bit of statistics and results to back up fox's placing. Metaknight is the best in brawl, but he doesn't win everything (or even very much on the national level from what i've seen). Playing the best character in the game is sometimes as much of a challenge as playing someone lower: everyone (at the top level) knows the match-up much better than you know the match-up in reverse.

About 2 years I guess? I dont follow small tournaments, I only watch the streams of big ones (seeing as I live in Australia and all) so those are the only ones I know. MK is irrelevant here, I dont see why you brought him into this. Im just saying, there is NOTHING that solo fox has done (that I have seen), that solo peach/puff/falco/marth havent done. And they do it more regularly than fox has done recently... multiple times each :|

The character ranking list is a point based system of ranking the characters, by giving points based on tournament result. When I compiled the list last, Fox had 3 times as many points as the next closest characters (falco and puff). I followed the same ranking rules as the brawl counterpart, which had similar results for MK.

Whether you realize it or not, there are always at least one fox in the top 8 of any tournament. Even this past apex, mango got 4th or something using fox partially. FC had Kels, Mango and SFAT in the top 8. Look at your local/regionals, almost every region's best player plays fox and if not there is still a top fox placing high.

People need to get their heads out of their ***** in this thread.

Thats kind of irrelevant... Thats entirely based on what proportion of points you give to the lower places. I understand the method is consistent and that is whats good, but if you say, gave more weight to higher-placers and less to 5th, 7th etc you might find that foxs lead drops drastically. Instead of it being say, 1st=10, 2nd=7, 3rd=5, 4th=3, 5th=2, 7=1 you made it 1st=15, 2nd=8, 3rd=5, 4th=3, 5th=2, 7th=1 (thats how the brawl one worked AFAIK I dont know about the melee one) you might find its closer. However you do it, its either going to favour less popular high placing mains, or more popular low placing ones (used as secondaries). I just believe that the current method favours lower-placers too much.

 

[CanISmash]

Fox has literally never dominated or ran **** the way the whole "best character in the game should "
Ken era. Pc peaked with falco. M2k marth. mango jiggs then falco. Armada peach. hbox jiggs. pp falco.

The main reason I don't think he is the best is his range, his **** is not that safe and he doesn't have the big room for error others do. He gets tossed around when he gets hit, literally any character low to high tier can do superb combo of the year stuff if they get a hit or grab on fox.

Mango tried all fox before and failed. Personally I'd go with falco or sheik as the best. Armada is just too good but when you really think about it peach pulling off stuff like a lot of counter hits is just the fault of the players. That should just be another thing they think of before attacking / spacing their attacks

People have given the same tired *** argument for years, fox is the best the right player just hasn't used him. Na. Fox is equivalent to giving a child a shotgun and an adult a knife and thinking well the little kid has all the tools to win so he's clearly better / gonna win.

 

[Fletch]

the truth.

how do people feel about falcon v fox / falco?

150-0 in favor of Fox/Falco

-every CF main ever

 

[CanISmash]

^ this is true til you get a grab or stomp.

then you falcons start drooling like hungry piranhas . ready to tech chase and ****

 

[leffen]

People have given the same tired *** argument for years, fox is the best the right player just hasn't used him. Na. Fox is equivalent to giving a child a shotgun and an adult a knife and thinking well the little kid has all the tools to win so he's clearly better / gonna win.

Lol this is hella true


altho #theleffenera is coming ;D


My take on it is that saying that Fox is the best character is like saying starting your own company is the best way of making money... Sure, in the perfect circumstances and with huge amounts of work you could earn huge amounts of money, but most of the times all that work could've been better spent somewhere else. And in our community, you have nothing that costs enough to justify not working at McDonald's

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox has literally never dominated or ran **** the way the whole "best character in the game should "
Ken era. Pc peaked with falco. M2k marth. mango jiggs then falco. Armada peach. hbox jiggs.

Ignoring the fact that Ken played Fox as much as Marth in tournament and PC used fox to win the 06 championship and played fox almost exclusively from then on. And that M2K started with Fox and uses him in many matchups to this day. And who did Armada pick when he was down 0-2 to mango in GFs of Genesis?

 

[iRobinhoood]

Every time I see Sveet as the latest poster in this thread, I hope to hear news about a new tier list.

 

[Wake]

It seems like most people would benefit from playing more than one character to cover MUs. I'm not a top player, but it doesn't seem that wise to me, just from watching the top players, to go completely solo with a character.

 

[leffen]

Ignoring the fact that Ken played Fox as much as Marth in tournament and PC used fox to win the 06 championship and played fox almost exclusively from then on. And that M2K started with Fox and uses him in many matchups to this day. And who did Armada pick when he was down 0-2 to mango in GFs of Genesis?

lol you cannot be serious

 

[Max?]

lol you cannot be serious

Agreed .

 

[CanISmash]

Ignoring the fact that Ken played Fox as much as Marth in tournament and PC used fox to win the 06 championship and played fox almost exclusively from then on. And that M2K started with Fox and uses him in many matchups to this day. And who did Armada pick when he was down 0-2 to mango in GFs of Genesis?

facepalm. How many tourneys did m2k when with fox again? and for how long?

Same question about ken.


Same question about armada.

again, fox never wins nationals. Never ever wins. Ever. He's been the best character for 12 years but you can't even tell me a dominant fox in 12 years of this game? The closest was PC which was short. and he used falco as well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox has literally never dominated or ran **** the way the whole "best character in the game should "
Ken era. Pc peaked with falco. M2k marth. mango jiggs then falco. Armada peach. hbox jiggs. pp falco.

The main reason I don't think he is the best is his range, his **** is not that safe and he doesn't have the big room for error others do. He gets tossed around when he gets hit, literally any character low to high tier can do superb combo of the year stuff if they get a hit or grab on fox.

Mango tried all fox before and failed. Personally I'd go with falco or sheik as the best. Armada is just too good but when you really think about it peach pulling off stuff like a lot of counter hits is just the fault of the players. That should just be another thing they think of before attacking / spacing their attacks

People have given the same tired *** argument for years, fox is the best the right player just hasn't used him. Na. Fox is equivalent to giving a child a shotgun and an adult a knife and thinking well the little kid has all the tools to win so he's clearly better / gonna win.

Your views on Fox and Peach are contradictory.

 

[Browny]

I was going to say that I'm glad some people agree with me, but it seems the idea that fox isn't the best (or anywhere near it for that matter) is actually kind of common and has been for a while.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm happy to accept that Fox isn't the best if we accept that Peach is. It just depends on how high you value results over theory or vice versa.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How about both?
Theory doesn't necessarily have to assume that a character is being played perfectly, ya'know. You can factor in things like reaction time, technical errors, timing/spacing errors, etc. Theory doesn't necessarily have to disagree with results either, or at least, it doesn't have to disagree with practicality, unless it's bad theory.
I feel like, if Fox had been overwhelming the best at a human level it would have become ridiculously obvious in the 12 years the game has had to develop... not to say that he hasn't been developing this whole time or that he has no more room for development, but fox development just isn't going that much faster than the other characters anymore, and until it shows signs of doing so, there's no reason to believe that tourney results are going to start changing dramatically in fox's favor. The same applies to the other top/high tiers of course, but they actually have results that show that at their current pace of development, they compete well (again, at a human level).

 

[john!]

fox doesn't do well because people know exactly how to play against fox, because everybody plays fox, because he is fast and exciting and straightforward. meanwhile floaties do better than you'd expect because people don't have the experience/patience to deal with them.

the fact that lots of people find them boring to play makes them uncommon and deprives people from gaining experience in the floaty matchups. the fact that they find them boring to play AGAINST makes people play worse against them than they would play against other characters.

peach and puff's success at the top level, and fox's lack of success, can be explained largely by their popularity. fox's massive popularity ends up hurting the results of each individual fox player. this is why it's beneficial to main a floaty despite the fact that fox is a far better character.

 

[Bones0]

fox doesn't do well because people know exactly how to play against fox, because everybody plays fox, because he is fast and exciting and straightforward. meanwhile floaties do better than you'd expect because people don't have the experience/patience to deal with them.

the fact that lots of people find them boring to play makes them uncommon and deprives people from gaining experience in the floaty matchups. the fact that they find them boring to play AGAINST makes people play worse against them than they would play against other characters.

peach and puff's success at the top level, and fox's lack of success, can be explained largely by their popularity. fox's massive popularity ends up hurting the results of each individual fox player. this is why it's beneficial to main a floaty despite the fact that fox is a far better character.

This perspective seems dumb to me. Okay, I can see it being true for some of the more obscure matchups (ICs, Ganon, Samus, etc.), but I have a hard time believing the top Fox mains don't have a decent amount of experience vs. Peach or any other top tier (with Puff being the main exception). And the thing about Puff is, Fox mains tend to do pretty good vs. her despite being outclassed by a lot of Fox experience for the Jiggs player. Unknown and Leffen both came extremely close to beating Hbox, but Hbox clearly has MUCH more experience in the matchup than they do.

I do think Fox being popular hurts him a measurable amount, but I doubt it would sway results one way or the other if he had maintained popularity closer to Falcon or Peach. He'd still get comboed to no end, and he'd still have **** priority with flimsy combos.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well the match-up is quite squarely in Fox's favour...

And almost everyone (Fox or otherwise) gets death touched at top level in 2013, it's an exaggeration, but not a large one with the notable exceptions being Peach and Jigglypuff

 

[john!]

I have a hard time believing the top Fox mains have a decent amount of experience vs. Peach or any other top tier

I do think Fox being popular hurts him a measurable amount, but I doubt it would sway results one way or the other if he had maintained popularity closer to Falcon or Peach.

these sentences don't make sense

also fox players come close to beating hbox because that matchup is heavily in fox's favor

 

[Bones0]

I fixed it. My point was Fox players tend to have a lot of solid experience vs. Peach, and next to none vs. Jiggs, but when you look at the results, it's still quite clear that Fox has an edge over Jiggs, but people frequently make that argument and then turn around and say Fox getting wrecked by Peach all the time doesn't mean anything, the Fox players are just playing the matchup wrong, etc.


What about the second quote doesn't make sense? I don't think Fox would do much better if he was less popular.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And then you evaluate the matches on more than just results, and find out that Fox does indeed have the advantage, and Armada is just really good?

I mean Mango would've beaten him at Genesis 2 if not for a few silly mistakes (his side-b recoveries...) and an overall overly aggressive playstyle.

 

[leffen]

Fox - Peach is NOWHERE as bad as armada tries to make people believe it is. Armada has always been one to stick to his ideas for wayyyy too long, even though everything speaks against it.

thats all I have to say, you guys are really just going nuts and making zero sense. let me know when you have a reasonable debate going on again LOL

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think it's Fox's advantage, but only slightly. What do you think the MU is?

 

[Bones0]

And then you evaluate the matches on more than just results, and find out that Fox does indeed have the advantage, and Armada is just really good?

I mean Mango would've beaten him at Genesis 2 if not for a few silly mistakes (his side-b recoveries...) and an overall overly aggressive playstyle.

I'm not just pointing at results and saying, "see, Peach beats Fox!" What I am doing is seeing people claim Fox-Peach is 65-35 or 70-30 in his favor and saying the reason it doesn't reflect results is because of matchup inexperience. No one ever cares to point out exactly what top Foxes do wrong vs. Peach that could be fixed to sway the matchup in their favor by 15+ points.

Accusing me of basing my opinion purely on results is pretty ironic because you then go on to mention the only time a Fox has ever come close to beating Armada in recent history and cite it as a reason that Fox is good at the matchup...

 

[leffen]

in a vacuum fox has the advantage

in reality peach does, at least in pal.

there being extremely few peaches compared to foxes obviously helps peach heavily in the non vacuum state of the matchup.

along with peach just being better for the tournament format that is what we use to determine skill


edit: Puff is in fox's favor though, altho their being so few puffs definitely helps puff A LOT

 

[JPOBS]

The smashers of old knew what they were talking about.

you mean those same guys that had marth at 2nd and falco at 4th?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Leffen: I like that you evaluate things out of a vacuum. It's somewhat unique.
But I think due to the constantly changing nature of the meta, it's better to have the tier list in a vacuum and let players make judgments after that? I dunno if that makes sense or not, it's 3.30AM here

Bones: But the result was that Armada won, how is that ironic? I was basing it on the match itself, where both players displayed the tools of each character at top level really well and were basically evenly matched mentally.

 

[MountainGoat]

According to the tier list, it should be defined as "a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results". Is Fox really expected to be number one in a tournament setting? Certainly not based on recent, relevant tournament results. I think he has more potential than any other character but according to the definition of the tier list he doesn't seem to be the number one character.

 

[john!]

just out of curiosity bones, do you think space animals should be mid tier, or low tier? i can't decide based on the tone of your posts.

I fixed it. My point was Fox players tend to have a lot of solid experience vs. Peach, and next to none vs. Jiggs, but when you look at the results, it's still quite clear that Fox has an edge over Jiggs, but people frequently make that argument and then turn around and say Fox getting wrecked by Peach all the time doesn't mean anything, the Fox players are just playing the matchup wrong, etc.

substitute "armada" for "peach" and then tell me whether your post makes sense.

What about the second quote doesn't make sense? I don't think Fox would do much better if he was less popular.

"fox being popular hurts him a measurable amount"

"fox's results wouldn't change if he was less popular"

According to the tier list, it should be defined as "a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results". Is Fox really expected to be number one in a tournament setting? Certainly not based on recent, relevant tournament results. I think he has more potential than any other character but according to the definition of the tier list he doesn't seem to be the number one character.

great point, but there are lots of people who hate "results-based tier lists" who don't want this to be true.

 

[Bones0]

Leffen: I like that you evaluate things out of a vacuum. It's somewhat unique.
But I think due to the constantly changing nature of the meta, it's better to have the tier list in a vacuum and let players make judgments after that? I dunno if that makes sense or not, it's 3.30AM here

Bones: But the result was that Armada won, how is that ironic? I was basing it on the match itself, where both players displayed the tools of each character at top level really well and were basically evenly matched mentally.

It is ironic because you told me to stop basing everything on results, and then said "see, Fox vs. Peach really is that bad; Mango was a handful of mistakes away from winning!" If you think they were evenly matched mentally and the matches were so close, wouldn't that mean Fox-Peach is close to even? derp

 

[leffen]

all this talk


makes me cringe

i wanna co main yoshi and fox

but ughhh

two hardest characters in the game to play... Q_Q

so close to just starting to counterpick puff and falcon against armada for free wins
but that wouldnt make me beat the rest of the top players

 

[john!]

so close to just starting to counterpick puff and falcon against armada for free wins against him
but that wouldnt make me beat the rest of the top players

quoting this so everyone can see it

 

[leffen]

uh, what?

i've told this to armada in person too

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is ironic because you told me to stop basing everything on results, and then said "see, Fox vs. Peach really is that bad; Mango was a handful of mistakes away from winning!" If you think they were evenly matched mentally and the matches were so close, wouldn't that mean Fox-Peach is close to even? derp

Fox/Peach is close to even. It's just in Fox's favour.

You know that the result is the thing that happens after the match, right? If I was ironically basing my opinion on results after calling you out for doing that, I'd say that Peach is better...?