Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

Welcome to the Melee boards. Where people have serious arguments about the worst character in the game despite playing the discussed characters about two and a half times a year.

I actually read the Brawl tier list/matchup thread semi-often. They do this speculation thing a LOT less than we do, lol.

 

[Ripple]

because they have the triforce tier. who wants to argue with that?

 

[The Star King]

Mewtwo vs Zelda, gogogo

Haha, I actually always think of that when I post about stuff like this. The fact that THAT match-up was the most heated debate in t3h_icy's thread kind of says a lot about these boards.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to always be hating on this community (yes I do ). You guys are awesome. It's just this one thing that I don't like. I don't wanna be like "Max?" (my name is actually Max, harhar) and just rip on the boards constantly without contributing much.

I actually read the Brawl tier list/matchup thread semi-often. They do this speculation thing a LOT less than we do, lol.

64 community does it a lot less too. But what you said about the Brawl boards actually surprises me because I thought it was a bigger community thing. All the theorycrafters coming out to excel at myopic speculation and not being good at the game, and that's what you see because they post the most. Kind of like the loud minority effect.

Maybe the 64 community does it less because we play our lesser characters 100x more than you guys do. So the people who DON'T play whatever character and don't have much experience on the topic see their relative ignorance, so don't say much. But in Melee Discussion everybody doesn't know what the **** they're talking about on certain topics so they're like "lol no1 knows so mite as well throw out my opinion", I guess? So maybe that means Brawl players also play low tiers more? IDK much about Brawl.

But recently, the 64 boards have actually gotten a Melee boards-esque theorycrafter named Yobolight who hasn't actually played people outside of his random friends, yet tells us we're wrong about everything. He's awful. And unlike other people like him we've gotten, he's made more than like 5 posts. So now I feel the pain at home

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, the metagame hasn't changed much? Then why didn't Ken destroy everyone? The metagame has changed vastly, and proof of that is whenever people come out of retirement, they find that a huge amount of players surpassed them. In this game, everyone is still learning, and improving. Those that don't look to improve lose interest, leaving only progressive players, that will continue to pass the old metagame, more and more.

Why does metagame = performance? Is it possible that Ken performed less because he hasn't played in 5 years? People pass others because they become better or worse, not because "the metagame" is different. Your post assumes far too much about that relationship.

edit: I played taj in the mewtwo vs zelda match-up exactly once and won both games.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Wait, the metagame hasn't changed much? Then why didn't Ken destroy everyone? The metagame has changed vastly, and proof of that is whenever people come out of retirement, they find that a huge amount of players surpassed them. In this game, everyone is still learning, and improving. Those that don't look to improve lose interest, leaving only progressive players, that will continue to pass the old metagame, more and more.
"

i'm just going to say I think this is a really dumb argument. My skill level drops by ~ 20-30% with one week of not playing due to inconsistency and just failing to take action in small time windows that appear during the matchup. Usually what happens when I come back is that i slowly get back in the groove but even with 6 hrs straight of practice I don't reach anything near my full potential. it usually takes me about 12 hrs to recover my normal skill level if i haven't been playing for a week.

Recently I took a one-two month break and I have had 3 sessions since then but still haven't recovered my skill (though I would probably place myself at about 90% peak skill now)

Ken took a freaking 5 year break, and comes in cold and you argue that this means that the metagame changed too much for him to keep up.

I haven't seen any major changes to marth dittos in the last 5 years and I also don't think marth sheik or marth falcon have changed significantly either. Regardless though, I don't really have a problem with your opinion. if you want to feel the metagame has shifted massively, then go ahead and defend that statement. But using ken's performance as a basis for anything is irrational.

random aside: ken is still really good.. he had some creative ideas in some of his marth dittos. He just wasn't as efficient as his opponents

 

[KirbyKaze]

A lot of Ken's strategies are outdated. But I don't feel like explaining why.

Also, I know like 90% of you will believe me even though I offer no justification for why my views are correct because I'm KirbyKaze. So follow me off the cliff, you sheep <3

No but really some of the stuff he was doing was real bad.

I'm not gonna argue that him being shape wouldn't have placed better 'cuz it might have. I don't know - I have no way of knowing he would or wouldn't. That said, even when executed well... a bad strategy is a bad strategy.

 

[choknater]

yeah he definitely made some '06 decisions

but i like to think positively and look at the good things he was doing. he definitely did some novelty stuff that i forget marths can do. like tipper randomly. LOL.

 

[knightpraetor]

I mean I feel that's true, but I also find myself executing suboptimal strategies a lot more when the proper strategy that I normally use is too difficult for me to do. For example, if my dashdance movement is poorly timed I start increasing the amount of jab, uptilt, retreating nair, and dash side B that I do. If i feel my aerial approaches are spaced poorly I approach less and just camp grab.

I think a lot of what ken said did not indicate that he had an extremely deep view of strategy, but I wouldn't either. PP himself forgot several statements he himself said were fundamental to marth vs jiggs when I talked to him. it's hard to keep strategies in your mind when you aren't playing the game regularly.

That said, I think that even at his prime, ken's vs spacey matchups were very unoptimized compared to watching m2k

 

[Purpletuce]

I wasn't saying the metagame didn't allow he to keep up, I'm sure if he played more he would do better, ut when he came in, he had a lot of his old mindset, if he were to "warm up" for 12 hours I would think that would be more of him starting to adapt to the new metagame, understand what still works and start implementing things in better areas. I don't think his performance can really be attributed to coming in 'cold' because I think that simply implies technical proficiency, which didn't seem to be a problem. I think his understanding of the metagame is what led him to make the decisions he did, and that is where I think some of his problems were. If he 'warmed up' for a week or so, I think that would be him adapting more to the newer scene, and he would probably do better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeah he definitely made some '06 decisions

but i like to think positively and look at the good things he was doing. he definitely did some novelty stuff that i forget marths can do. like tipper randomly. LOL.

Yeah I saw him tip f-smash on a combo break attempt by some random player and was like, "Oh yeah almost every Marth sucks now."

 

[odinNJ]

KK can you tell me some more stuff about Marth, KK, where are we going KK, what's that thing coming up KK, is Dk good KK, *falls*

 

[john!]

guys, just watch the old MLG videos from like '07 when ken, korean dj, isai, etc. were in their prime

then watch current videos from the past year

the difference is very noticeable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK can you tell me some more stuff about Marth, KK, where are we going KK, what's that thing coming up KK, is Dk good KK, *falls*

Marth has a sword.

We're going to APEX.

The thing coming up is Apex.

No.

 

[KrIsP!]

Why did he fall kk?

Spoiler

to learn to pick himself back up again?

 

[Svetsunov]

guys, just watch the old MLG videos from like '07 when ken, korean dj, isai, etc. were in their prime

then watch current videos from the past year

the difference is very noticeable.

Whatever did happen to KDJ anyway? Did everyone else just get better?

 

[Archangel]

KDJ had some games online somewhere in like 010....but idk after that he kind of vanished again slowly into the night.

 

[odinNJ]

What's the general opinion on samus anymore, havenet seen much talk about her since the big md tier organizing craze

 

[Divinokage]

Well.. Strong_Bad never uploaded my set vs KDJ's Marth from Apex 2012. It's been almost a ****ing year, unbelievable. Laziest smasher ever.

 

[Dark Hart]

*pokes head around corner*

Someone say mewtwo vs Zelda???

 

[Mew2King]

we use the result of that to determine the MU ratio

Last hit - 50/50
Strong 1 stock - 60/40
High percent 2 stock - 65/35
Strong 2 stock - 70/30
High percent 3 stock - 75/25
Strong 3 stock - 80/20
High percent 4 stock - 85/15
Strong 4 stock - 90/10
JV 5 stock - 100/0

In favour of the winner.

Marth and Sheik 100/0s a lot of matchups in that case.

but i actually think marth: (completely serious)
vs fox - 50 50 (fox may win BARELY but I am not so sure. It's very close to 50 50 in either case, except on dreamland and poke stad fox kind of ***** marth there but marth ***** fox on FD)
vs peach - 55 45 or 53 47 (marth hits easily, but difficult to KO and can't combo/gimp at high %s either)
vs sheik - 38 62 or 40 60
vs falco - 40 60
vs ICs - 50 50?
pikachu - idk I never do that MU except here for the first time like ever lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk but I felt i played pretty good but i lost so maybe marth does lose or maybe i just dont know the MU as well as axe does which is also very likely the case
puff and falcon - 50 50? and warmed up i can beat all falcons with my marth and all marths with my falcon so idk what that ratio is anymore since falcon can up throw uair and marth can up throw up tilt or up throw fair to something.
vs samus 60 40

i think marth is only countered by sheik and falco, but goes even or beats everyone else (Ken also thinks the exact same thing as me when I talked to him in 2006, with sheik being marth's worst MU with falco being a close 2nd, and fox being 50 50. Lots of evenish stuff. if FD was the only stage in the game then marth would be the best character by far, only losing to sheik head to head but being a much better character overall.

also look at this: http://www.youtube.com/results?sear....0.0.0.57.343.8.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.kAPssp3LAS4

watch match 1 then match 2. Tink mains fox, and barely uses Falco. I was watching that in person and i talked to them after that set.

 

[Twinkles]

Marth-Marth 100/0

 

[Stevo]

I think it is important to take into consideration the current ruleset.

being that, Marth might beat Spacies on FD, but since everyone gets 1 ban, the chances of that happening are pretty slim. It matters more that Spacies have more than 1 good stage against marth. Also, with the current recommended ruleset we only have a few stages to pick from. That, combined with the 1 ban makes it more realistic to bring in stage choices into making these ratios.

 

[Mew2King]

not being able to ban a stage is a much better ruleset since it means you must be good on all the neutrals and some chars need it (spacies are WAY too good of characters overall if they can just ban FD every time, since the other characters that are worse than them can't even chain grab them. Fox ***** Marth on poke stad the same amount that Marth ***** Fox on FD, but Fox still wins on the other stages).

Marth is nearly unviable if you combine stage striking with being able to flat out ban a stage. He has a MEH first stage (no stage that favors him) and no CP stage that favors him vs spacies (loses on DL64 and Poke badly, evenish or slightly disadvantaged on the rest). I often consider quitting marth or not depending on the ruleset used. I often feel sheik's not good enough either (vs falco) and i sometimes ponder using peach/puff/falco/fox but idk if or when id do that. I'm good with those characters, but I never tried it so I'm not confident.

btw, imo, marth doesn't just beat fox on FD, he utterly DESTROYS him (based on my experience fighting Fox's on FD). I've Jv 5 stocked good players (that I won't name) on that stage, and 4 stocked like everyone cept mango's fox there i think (i even did that to sfat at genesis2 when he cpd fd on me cuz of chain grabbing). Marth needs that stage. Roy and Mewtwo can actually go kind of even with Fox on that stage. It's the exact opposite of Poke stadium for fox vs marth flipped around, but marth still slightly loses on the next 4 stages so he needs it to just be slightly-worse but still viable.

 

[Stevo]

I agree Mew2King, I don't think we should have a ban either.

What is the reasoning behind people getting 1 ban these days anyway?


and why can't a poor bowser player have his Yoshi's story for his counterpick if they really want to lol

 

[Europhoria]

Why do you think Marth Fox is so horrible on Stadium?

 

[odinNJ]

A few things,

Wall shines
Akward ledge, easy shine kills
spacies are good on transforming stages

I also don't think that the platform structure is favorable for marths particular brand of defense, but correct me if Im wrong on this one


also @ m2k. roy can be close to fox on fd, I agree, combos become viable and edeguarding is one dimensional (no safe platform landing for fox). id say 55-45 foxes favor (also lol chain grab)

m2 on the other hand. I still think that he loses on fd, he can use utrhow fair combos/ infa wave-dtilting I guess, Id say its like a 60-40 foxes favor

But who cares about low tiers, what m2k is saying is that without fd there is nowhere to have a reliable advantage over species for marth specifically and a few others. However the fact that poke stadium is on the stage list and the fact that spacies autoban fd makes it akward to even consider the stage list to be balanced.

 

[Europhoria]

Wut? I don't see how Marth gets ***** on stadium at all. By design the neutral part of stadium is the closest thing to FD and suddenly he gets ***** instead of ****** Fox?

Easy shines? How is it easier specifically on stadium to get shine spikes....
Awkward ledge? It doesn't hinder how Fox will generally edgeguard Marth unless they just stand on stage and down-smash maybe >_> If anything all it does is benefit Marth as it leads to a lot of cheese grabs out of shines that wouldn't normally occur/take away recovery options from Fox/make the edgeguarding easier for Marth
No top platform? Also good for Marth as Fox's ability to extend combos and chase via the top platform is much greater then Marth's. Also takes away any ability for a space animal to realistically platform camp.

Transformations+Wall Shines? Ok I can't really dispute that Fox is likely stronger on them but the last time I can recall someone getting legit wall-shined to death in tournament (or even at all really) was like Cort vs. CKit from FCD regional crews. Does that even count as tournament? This certainly hasn't been for a lack of Fox vs. Character that can get infinited on Stadium, or for a lack of technical Foxes.

Do the space animals get **** combos extended or aided by the wall? Sure. Do other characters? Obviously. Let's take a look at say, Hungrybox vs. Unknown522 from the big house. Game 5 on stadium is fairly close up until where Ryan gets cheese rested on his last stock, and the rest had nothing to do with the stage so I think this is a reasonable reference. Unknown gets ***** on the Rock stage (should work to Fox's benefit right?). The game is close cause he does very well on the neutral part of stadium >_> I mean, is it really that hard to like b-air to b-air to b-air to b-air off a wall? Or any other move? I'm not gonna say it isn't scary vs. like Fox in these scenarios but it's definately a double edged sword for the Fox --- even if their edge is slightly bigger in that specific scenario. I just don't see any significant amount of real evidence to justify "omg fox can wall shine you!!! he 1000000-0s everyone stadium" from like 6 years of tournament matches.

The more likely scenario on transformations is usually a stalemate anyways >_> where no one engages in combat and then you back to fighting on the regular part of the stage which is the closest thing to FD you can get as Marth without actually going to FD.

I dunno, I'm just not on board with M2K's like "oh Marth loses to everyone if he can't chain throw them to death without escape from 0" or the Falco players with their "laser sucks, falco loses to fox, marth, sheik, dk, doc, ics, puff, peach, falcon cause they can all shield grab him and backthrow him apparently" kind of attitudes. I'm trying to be honest about match ups and not get as emo about them >_> It's not only a bad way to go about playing, but from an objective point? You play Marth and Sheik - shut up. If you mained Roy or DK or some character that lose these match-ups like 8-2 at least this ****ing state would be understandable.

Maybe Marth/Sheik doesn't lose to Falco Jason, but you just lose to PP because he's better then you. Have you considered this yet? At what point after like garning a 1-10 record in tournament sets does this become a realistic scenario to you? You have close matches all set and then you just choke. Doesn't that make him the better player and entitle him to winning?

Ugh >_> ranting done now

 

[Lovage]

definitely reading 0% of euphoria's above post





m2k how come you think marth sheik is so bad. i can't make up my mind on it

edit: in regards to the stagelist, i agree marth is the one character that gets ***** the hardest in best of 3's

 

[strawhats]

not being able to ban a stage is a much better ruleset since it means you must be good on all the neutrals and some chars need it (spacies are WAY too good of characters overall if they can just ban FD every time, since the other characters that are worse than them can't even chain grab them. Fox ***** Marth on poke stad the same amount that Marth ***** Fox on FD, but Fox still wins on the other stages).

Marth is nearly unviable if you combine stage striking with being able to flat out ban a stage. He has a MEH first stage (no stage that favors him) and no CP stage that favors him vs spacies (loses on DL64 and Poke badly, evenish or slightly disadvantaged on the rest). I often consider quitting marth or not depending on the ruleset used. I often feel sheik's not good enough either (vs falco) and i sometimes ponder using peach/puff/falco/fox but idk if or when id do that. I'm good with those characters, but I never tried it so I'm not confident.

btw, imo, marth doesn't just beat fox on FD, he utterly DESTROYS him (based on my experience fighting Fox's on FD). I've Jv 5 stocked good players (that I won't name) on that stage, and 4 stocked like everyone cept mango's fox there i think (i even did that to sfat at genesis2 when he cpd fd on me cuz of chain grabbing). Marth needs that stage. Roy and Mewtwo can actually go kind of even with Fox on that stage. It's the exact opposite of Poke stadium for fox vs marth flipped around, but marth still slightly loses on the next 4 stages so he needs it to just be slightly-worse but still viable.

Are you sure its just that Jman and PC Chris are just really good on that stage. I know you've said something like jman always beat you on that stage, and I know alot of your opinions are based from experience. Makes sense though that you hardly use marth these days, and have been using sheik more(even against fox/marth, your two best MUs with marth)...sigh. I feel like posting a lion king video with the scene where mufasa comes back in Ghost form(remember who u r and all that good ****)/horrible post

P.S. m2k, have you ever played out a marth vs doc set ( vs shroomed, etc) I wonder about that MU all the time.

 

[Mew2King]

definitely reading 0% of euphoria's above post





m2k how come you think marth sheik is so bad. i can't make up my mind on it

edit: in regards to the stagelist, i agree marth is the one character that gets ***** the hardest in best of 3's

throw combos mostly, and combos in general, where as marth cannot KO sheik easily compared to other MUs where his throws are generally more useful.

marth's the perfect weight to be 0-deathed by sheik and falco on many stages via combos, same with c.falcon too but marth can 0-death him or camp him out easily at least

 

[hungrybox]

I hope Jigglypuff is 8th in the next tier list.

Right where she belongs.

 

[hungrybox]

And why do you call it "cheese rest" when I pull off a good rest?

Stop being bitter.

 

[Mew2King]

Wut? I don't see how Marth gets ***** on stadium at all. By design the neutral part of stadium is the closest thing to FD and suddenly he gets ***** instead of ****** Fox?

Easy shines? How is it easier specifically on stadium to get shine spikes....
Awkward ledge? It doesn't hinder how Fox will generally edgeguard Marth unless they just stand on stage and down-smash maybe >_> If anything all it does is benefit Marth as it leads to a lot of cheese grabs out of shines that wouldn't normally occur/take away recovery options from Fox/make the edgeguarding easier for Marth
No top platform? Also good for Marth as Fox's ability to extend combos and chase via the top platform is much greater then Marth's. Also takes away any ability for a space animal to realistically platform camp.

Transformations+Wall Shines? Ok I can't really dispute that Fox is likely stronger on them but the last time I can recall someone getting legit wall-shined to death in tournament (or even at all really) was like Cort vs. CKit from FCD regional crews. Does that even count as tournament? This certainly hasn't been for a lack of Fox vs. Character that can get infinited on Stadium, or for a lack of technical Foxes.

Do the space animals get **** combos extended or aided by the wall? Sure. Do other characters? Obviously. Let's take a look at say, Hungrybox vs. Unknown522 from the big house. Game 5 on stadium is fairly close up until where Ryan gets cheese rested on his last stock, and the rest had nothing to do with the stage so I think this is a reasonable reference. Unknown gets ***** on the Rock stage (should work to Fox's benefit right?). The game is close cause he does very well on the neutral part of stadium >_> I mean, is it really that hard to like b-air to b-air to b-air to b-air off a wall? Or any other move? I'm not gonna say it isn't scary vs. like Fox in these scenarios but it's definately a double edged sword for the Fox --- even if their edge is slightly bigger in that specific scenario. I just don't see any significant amount of real evidence to justify "omg fox can wall shine you!!! he 1000000-0s everyone stadium" from like 6 years of tournament matches.

The more likely scenario on transformations is usually a stalemate anyways >_> where no one engages in combat and then you back to fighting on the regular part of the stage which is the closest thing to FD you can get as Marth without actually going to FD.

I dunno, I'm just not on board with M2K's like "oh Marth loses to everyone if he can't chain throw them to death without escape from 0" or the Falco players with their "laser sucks, falco loses to fox, marth, sheik, dk, doc, ics, puff, peach, falcon cause they can all shield grab him and backthrow him apparently" kind of attitudes. I'm trying to be honest about match ups and not get as emo about them >_> It's not only a bad way to go about playing, but from an objective point? You play Marth and Sheik - shut up. If you mained Roy or DK or some character that lose these match-ups like 8-2 at least this ****ing state would be understandable.

Maybe Marth/Sheik doesn't lose to Falco Jason, but you just lose to PP because he's better then you. Have you considered this yet? At what point after like garning a 1-10 record in tournament sets does this become a realistic scenario to you? You have close matches all set and then you just choke. Doesn't that make him the better player and entitle him to winning?

Ugh >_> ranting done now

The reason marth is ***** on stadium but not FD is a number of small changes that add up:
1) The ceiling is lower, and Fox KOs upwards (sometimes falco sometimes not), and Marth rarely ever KOs upwards
2) platforms make it so you cannot CG to death. However it's still good for CGing compared to the other stages but much, much worse than on FD
3) Every transformation benefits fox in some way with unortodox terrain. Chain grabs are much worse
4) The main stage is the longest, giving fox the most room to laser. This is good in all matchups. The main stage platform is slightly bigger than FD's main stage platform, which is bigger than any other stage in the game and by far the best stage for laser camping which is good in a large number of MUs. This is good for falco too, but fox is better on poke stad than falco is, even though they are both really good there.

Even though these are small things on their own, if you consider that all of these 4 changes benefit Fox against the Marth, you can see why it's his worst stage to fight fox alongside with Dreamland 64.

on DL64, Marth can't kill falco if he just recovers high a lot. Mango does this a lot. Sheik is better there.

I absolutely think Marth and Sheik lose to Falco, easily. Zhu can beat my marth/sheik too and i think he's really good but he's certainly not my skill level against most of the rest of the world, and at Impulse I did much better vs Mango's Fox than his Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7aGt9GQVWo#t=20s

I 4-0d his fox in friendlies with sheik and then in tourney i got a 3 stock before he went to falco and did much better. I generally win like 2/3rds with my marth vs his fox and he wins 70 30 in fox dittos (I win if he's not warmed up but his warmed up fox is insane) and his falco wins most frienldies vs my marth/sheik.

I do much better vs PC's fox than falco too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QhGurghf1s
or kels when i played him in the midwest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILgpiojn8w (his falco can win vs my sheik sometimes but i 4 stocked when he went fox). I know these are extreme examples but even on the average it is similar to this (the point being a large difference, despite their fox's being their official mains during those times).

OC3 is the only time i lost to him but that was due to a combination of me choking and him playing very well. That's just him outplaying me, but total record I've beaten (and *****) his fox many times where has he has 3-0d me many times with falco. (at two MLGs in a row, I would 3-0 KDJ in fox dittos then PC would 3-0 me back with Falco. This happened to me in 2 or 3, I think 2 MLGs in a row).

I haven't seen anyone switch mains from Falco to Fox and do better in tournaments. It's usually the other way around. I've struggled with Falco more than other MUs since 2005. Nothing has changed in 7 years except the Falco's are using even more of their options.

I don't WANT to think falco is that good, but from the conclusion of everything I've seen (I've seen like every high level falco vs sheik/marth match that exists on youtube more than once each), there is no way I can believe otherwise. I don't just look at it from a win/loss perspective, I look at it from situations, and risk/reward ratios, probability, options covered and not covered, etc. That's the main way I look at things. My mindset is if you cover all their options, that no matter what, you can make your opponent lose. Falco's lasers and ridiculous combos allow him to do this the best of the other characters. The only reliable approach to falco is powershielding and that is very inconsistent because in 60 frame per second, sometimes if you press the R button down all the way during the same frame, it won't always work. For 2 possible reasons: 1) With regular fast human hands, pressing the R button down all the way in a short period of time may sometimes produce a light shield first. This is because the game runs at 60 FPS. 60 frame per second. What if I pressed the R button down and it registered at frame 58.9, and then ended on 60.1. That right there is 3 possible frames covere that could be accidentally be light shielded on frame 58 or 59 in those 0.02 seconds (which normally would only encompass 1.2 frames not 3, but it spans over 3 frames). That part is luck, which is why it won't always be consistent. The transition from real time to frame-game-time. (In most situations it should only encompass 2 frames or less than 0.02 seconds and more like 0.01 sconds. So say if you press the R button and it registers the light shield on frame 59.2 and ends on 59.7, well that was only about half a frame and in that situation you would get the full shield of the powershield, but if that 0.5 frame time was used from say, 58.8 to 59.3, then it would light shield first (registered at 59.0) and then go into the full shield a frame later. IN THIS SITUATION, A POWER SHIELD WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

I am probably explaining this really poorly so maybe you should ignore this, but basically powershielding is very inconsistent no matter who you are BECAUSE the game is 60 FPS and relies on being frame perfect. You can't do something frame perfect like that consisetntly every time. It's like trying to do 5 JC shines in a row with fox consistently. One time I even got 18 JC shines in a row but other times I can't even do 2 in a row, because you need to be frame perfect. Tactics that are 1-frame-away from being frame perfect are like 10 times easier to do consistently, which is a large reason that frame-perfect things are so unreliable, despite how much practice you have. Again I am unsure if I am explaining this correctly as it makes sense in my head, but hopefully I explained it decently enough so you can understand why that is such an unreliable strategy, but to beat Falco, it may be a necessary one for many MUs.

I know about the light shield trick also but sacrificing light shield is often not good since it's useful in a lot of situations, but also because a laser moves such a large distance per frame, even if you get the perfect shield (instead of the light shield, which is partial luck in the situation that I explained above in normal circumstances) you may not get the shield on the right frame unless you have an inhuman reaction time. It's mostly skill but there is a lot of luck involved so it's not really very consistent. (The only exception to this may be using the light shield trick by holding the R button before the match for easier light shields, but then using Marth's dash away into a powershield. I will be honest in saying that I have not experimented with this much so I cannot give an input on how useful this will serve me).

I do understand I have a choking problem vs a lot of people. I threw tons of sets away vs pp/hbox/mango/armada from getting nervous and having it mess me up. Unfortunately I've been unable to overcome this and it's a huge problem I have that holds me back a lot. I still think Marth/Sheik get ***** by Falco and go even with Fox, since my marth/sheik are positive vs every single fox in the world. I can 2-3 stock the top fox's with those characters consistently, but i struggle with quite a number of falcos over the past 7 years where as with fox it is rarely the case (even KDJ I used to beat in dittos 2/3rds of the time we played). I also have yet to see a marth/sheik play the falco MU better than me (I think Mango/pp were playing bad vs Taj or at least pp was playing bad and mango told me himself he thinks he played like an idiot; I watched the set to learn stuff but it was just the Falcos not playing well, and that's the only example I ever hear brought up over and over again). I'm not talking about just 1 fox player or 1 falco player, I'm talking about like the top 5 or 10 fox's vs the top 5 or 10 falcos - The fox's are much easier to me with both characters. Then, I also see Falco's doing better in tournament, since PC in 2005 to Shiz ****** people to Zhu to Mango to PP, but I haven't seen a Fox rise. Without seeing better strats vs falco as marth or sheik from other players (a lot of the strats rely on the falco being sloppy, and if you need specific examples I can provide them), with seeing falco's constantly do better than fox, and with a number of falco players giving me trouble than even the best fox's in the world consistently, I have good reason to believe falco is a ridiculous character. I wouldn't base that opinion on only 1 instance, I look at results over a period of time, my own opinion, my thoughts on studying the MU myself and studying it from other players, and I try to consider everything when I form an opinion, despite how biased you call me it's not as much as you think - I have actual legit reasons for what I think that go far beyond just "he lost to X character so X is the best". I still don't think Peach is anything special for example, I think Armada is just really good with him (although I do think peach can go kind of evenish with Falco since her Jab/Grab/Dashattack all cannot be short hopped over, where as Falco can easily jump over most other characters jabs/grabs/dash attacks (especially grabs). Overall I think Peach is still 6th on the tier list although very close to marth (Marth is very easy to JV 5 stock people with though more than any other character).

If I wanted to just make my characters look better, I would say "sheik sucks vs fox like everyone says and im just THAT good with sheik", but I'm not saying that, I am saying that I think the MU is close to even (I think sheik fox is nearly 50 50) and the sheik's need to step it up vs fox imo. I think Fox is a slightly overrated character because I **** Fox players and I feel the reason is because I am more familiar with Fox's flaws (lack of range / being 0-deathed very easily upon a hit easier than most characters) than most other people are. The highest level sheik vs the highest level fox I know has sheik (me) winning most of the time. Because of this, I have come to the conclusion that the match can't be that bad. I think sheik only loses on FD/Poke stad (although badly there), and goes even or wins vs fox on the other stages.

Hbox - you're a really good player but be real, puff is pretty RIDICULOUSLY good. Comparing Captain Falcon to Puff is not even remotely close (Falcon is around 8th on the tier list. I actually think Ice Climbers are better than C.falcon; the primary exception to this is vs Peach. ICs handle all the other top characters better than falcon does imo). I can play all of the top 8 characters (except ICs) pretty well (imo I'm best sheik/marth, 2nd/3rd best fox on good day, 3rd/4th best puff, decent falco/decent falcon, 2nd best peach even though armada is liiiightyears ahead) and I've logged 100s of hours into every character and I play them a lot in frienldies when I do play this game (I have not played the game recently but in the grand total of time invested into melee I almost definitely have the most among the pro players, but I never focused on one cuz I never wanted to which was probably a bad idea for me). I do think I have a good idea of each character but comparing Puff to C.Falcon (around where 8th on the tier list should be) is absolutely absurd. I consider puff around fox/sheik level, below falco.

strawhats - jman does not always beat me there but i ban it vs him cuz it's his best. Our fox dittos there last time we fox dittoed half a year ago i 3 stock low %ed him then he won 2 stock (I forget %) next time. My matches with Jman are so random, often depending how we're both playing. I've double 4 stocked him before and he's beaten me twice in a row before. It varies greatly. I believe Poke is great for fox vs marth because of the 4 reasons I stated at the top of these paragraphs.

 

[Europhoria]

And why do you call it "cheese rest" when I pull off a good rest?

Stop being bitter.

A 2 step that kills *across* the whole stage at sub 20% isn't cheesey? I'd be less bitter if well... Lots of characters can kill you from that % if you mess up on their shield but it's a result of long chain, which is very far from a 2 step that you could teach someone on their first day, that no one with maybe 2 exceptions historically have been able to perform with consistency (and certainly never at 100%). Without considering some kind of scenario where you fall through the stage/phantom hits, then death at 20% from a 2 step is about as gay a death as you're going to get in smash.

Also what @ Jiggs in 8th? lol don't tell me not to be bitter

Response

Low ceiling, really? I never buy into this arguement that because u-throw u-air kills like, 1 double short hop laser earlier that it's some kind of stage advantage.
I don't know how I feel about stage length for Fox. I understand laser camping is gay but like, every Fox will say you should never be near the ledge against Marth/Sheik/etc. It's like a pillar of spacies mantra. Eventually if they keep running they reach an edge on stadium >_> and I don't think there's a real easy way to just run over Marth without Dream Land platforms for example.

Yeah, I understand the transformation are awful. It's just never come across to me as a historical game breaker in the sense that it causes the Marth to directly lose (like they're even until it changes then he just starts getting ***** until it changes back). At the very least I feel like you can play defensively until you're safe again. You've had no qualms doing this in a lot of tournament scenarios so I don't see why it wouldn't apply here. I can certainly see why the stage would be sub-optimal. I just don't think it's like the vicious **** you're outlining it to be on Stadium in general.

Anyways, about the rest of the stuff. Don't get me wrong, I think Falco is better then Fox overall... like by a pretty noticeable margin. The way his combo game is structured and the small amount of characters with the range and options to deal with his neutral game/game (if you can really call it neutral) is dumb and offers him a crazy level of consistency in tournaments. If you tried explaining to people in other fighting game communities about the concept that is Falco's projectiles in this game + frame 1 launcher that you can like... cancel into anything on block or hit including itself is ludicrous.

At no point have I ever thought power shielding was the answer to Falco. Not every player outside of the US is leffen and thinks that it's god mode strategy in the match up. You can talk to me about this at RoM if you'd like. I'm pretty tired doing this and the writing is choppy on my end as well. I have my own set of thoughts on the neutral/first game vs. Falco that I've kind of come to from watching and talking to like KK/other Marths. The neutral game is so hard against Falco and much easier on his end >_> I just feel like there is considerable room for improvement on the end of the non-Falco players.

I understand you're historically incredible vs. Fox and have iffy records - or at least harder times - with Falco players of comparable skill level. But with that being said >_>

You have these last hit type sets/games with say PP's Falco. Usually those games are determined by who makes like 1 extra error >_> It's hard to agree that the match up is then even in those scenarios. You're clearly not out-playing him by some large margin to have those close games (in terms of like jockeying for position, etc) when I'm watching unless you'd like to offer up that you are and why. I feel like a lot of this is in your head and you could turn the situation around. Then we'll see all the Falco players posting even more about how their character loses to everyone because they die from grab/can be thrown off the stage at 0. There's also plenty of Youtube videos of your Marth specifically with these same games and moments against Fox.

I'd like to see you do well and stop choking. Don't take what I said as some kind of hate towards you as a player. I'm a big fan of your Marth and Fox (less of your Sheik for like, the reason I told you at my during Impulse). It makes me sad to see you choke and throw away sets that you were doing well in/play Brawl/deteriorate your melee skills by not keeping up with practice/john.

 

[choknater]

m2k droppin the knowledge and storytelling

all i gotta say is this........







KK is good at everything in this game

except commentating

 

[Beat!]

M2K, you can do the "light shield trick" with only one of the L/R buttons and use that one for powershielding. That way you can still lightshield with the other one. Best of both worlds.

Cool posts btw.

 

[Mew2King]

i can't use L or Y. only R and X

 

[Beat!]

Oh. Well, that's unfortunate.

 

[Ripple]

power shielding a projectile is a 2 frame window. just FYI

 

[leffen]

so because m2k is too lazy to learn using another button, falco is broken.

You main sheik and marth and think powershielding is inconsistent? LOLLLL
It blew my mind when I found the dash back powershield, because it was so stupidly obvious and I found it in a couple of minutes (and I don't even play Marth, or even knew that his shield was bugged which quite a few people knew).

Its a result of the top players just being lazy and not doing enough lab work, its a disgrace.
PP (and mango) cannot doubleshine (please don't try with "1 frame is inconsistent/random" because its not, look it up), M2K can't powershield, Hbox doesn't do a bazillion different things, mango cannot do second hit only with fox's uair and I've taught armada way too many things to count...


and M2K, you still forgot the by far biggest argument against you and falco. What if you're just bad at the matchup? What if he just counters your style? Its not hard to see that you could then let this get this to your head and develop a mental block against this character (something which you're known to do in both melee and brawl).

You said the exact same thing with Diddy, Falco, Olimar and so on in Brawl, claiming them all to be wayyy too good for your opponent, but then after you spent time learning it (which you haven't done with Falco in melee) you realized its not that bad.





also PS is not even close to as bad as DL64 for marth against fox. The platforms aren't even good for Fox, since they're small enough that marth can cover every option super easily (just watch ken counterpick this all the ****ing time for this very reason).


oh and a pikachu came 3rd at KOC, almost beating the FALCO that won the tournament, and the 4th placer was a Dr mario, who also came decently close against the 2nd best Falco at the tournament.
Even if falco is "the best", characters outside of top 10 constantly show that they can still compete (and those players are also considered to a whole lot worse in general, just not against falco)

A peach (which is currently outside of the top 5) is dominating every single Falco, and only PP really has a shot (and he has a pretty bad record against armada overall).
M2K himself came dangerously close to beating Mango/PP and he even beat PP solidly in winners, and then brought it extremely close in GF, even though M2K is considered to be a whole tier below the top 4, and he never beats Armada/Hbox, who neither play Falco, and he is known to try way less than the Falcos that beat him.