Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[General Heinz]

You're making an assumption that no player will ever play a game (from a technical standpoint) perfectly, which I do not believe is a valid assumption to make. You could argue, "Even top players mess up their spacing / wavedashing / ledgedashing now, 10 years into the game", which is true, but I believe that is a matter of pressure moreso than practice.

I will again say:

It's human nature to decry that which we find difficult, but ability is not limited, only effort.

It's easily a valid assumption to make. "Perfect" is meaningless. It's not clear what "perfect" would even mean in relation to smash.

Take a game like chess. With relatively few variables/options compared with smash, over time there has developed a correspondingly refined set of setups, more of less, such that in order to reach the upper echelons of play there's a lot of memorization of just the situations themselves, and the different ways of routing through them.

Of course the same applies in smash--certain strategies lead to certain situations with certain reliably consistent methods of retaliation, but the number of possible outcomes is astronomical just given the innumerably minute possibilities in spacing.

Also it's blatantly foolish to say ability is not limited. Your abilities are only that which is endowed upon your physicality, and ability is not invariant across individuals. That would be like saying what a human looks like now is the insuperable apex of all evolution that will ever or could ever take place. It's for this reason, the one that impacts the execution side the most (which isn't even present in chess), that I'm disagreeing with you.

Actually I'm not even really disagreeing with you on the main topic of powershielding, because I don't necessarily think/know that/whether powershielding is or isn't consistently doable because I haven't set to applying it really (I guess stylistically I prefer other options), but I can't help but take issue with the notion that all abilities are just a matter of time and effort. That's a patent falsity.

EDIT: I also disagree that it's all just muscle memory, because being a frame-precise input it will invariably change in timing based on distance.

 

[Gea]

So question. If powershielding Falco's laser consistently on reaction is obtainable for any player, what is stopping the Falco player from powershielding the powershielded laser right back? I mean if enough people got consistent enough at it.

 

[Europhoria]

Or just shooting the laser low and jumping >_> Oh wait there are already examples of that Youtube

 

[MaskedMarth]

The powershielded laser isn't meant to be the definitive riposte. It isn't hard to see why it's still useful even if Falco powershields or shines it back.

 

[EthereaL]

Muscle memory is for things that are hard to input. Straining on your, you know, muscles.

I don't even know why I bother.

It's easily a valid assumption to make. "Perfect" is meaningless. It's not clear what "perfect" would even mean in relation to smash.

Take a game like chess. With relatively few variables/options compared with smash, over time there has developed a correspondingly refined set of setups, more of less, such that in order to reach the upper echelons of play there's a lot of memorization of just the situations themselves, and the different ways of routing through them.

Of course the same applies in smash--certain strategies lead to certain situations with certain reliably consistent methods of retaliation, but the number of possible outcomes is astronomical just given the innumerably minute possibilities in spacing.

I don't know what you meant to say by this, and you didn't follow it up with anything. I think that a mistake-less game on a technical aspect is very clearly what I meant.

Also it's blatantly foolish to say ability is not limited. Your abilities are only that which is endowed upon your physicality, and ability is not invariant across individuals. That would be like saying what a human looks like now is the insuperable apex of all evolution that will ever or could ever take place. It's for this reason, the one that impacts the execution side the most (which isn't even present in chess), that I'm disagreeing with you

Forgive me that I don't specify that there are physical limitations on what the human body can do.


People who argue for the sake of arguing are frustrating, especially when they ignore the vital points in the discussion just to argue detracting ones.


Edit:

Actually I'm not even really disagreeing with you on the main topic of powershielding, because I don't necessarily think/know that/whether powershielding is or isn't consistently doable because I haven't set to applying it really (I guess stylistically I prefer other options), but I can't help but take issue with the notion that all abilities are just a matter of time and effort. That's a patent falsity.

Why are you even a part of this discussion then?

Good God

EDIT: I also disagree that it's all just muscle memory, because being a frame-precise input it will invariably change in timing based on distance.

I give up.

 

[Ripple]

KK has been banned!

BY ODIN'S BEARD! thank the gods.

 

[General Heinz]

I don't know what you meant to say by this, and you didn't follow it up with anything. I think that a mistake-less game on a technical aspect is very clearly what I meant.

Haha yeah I didn't follow up.

I guess what I was trying to get at is the idea that...okay, say you could define what "perfect" actually was. I'm just going to speculate here, so correct me if your preferred definition would differ at all, but let's say we call playing perfect something like choosing the best possible option in every situation, and never making a mistake in the execution of that option. Actually we could sort of combine those two things just by saying that any time you choose the wrong option, you've made a mistake, so then the goal is just to never make a "mistake." Not once.

You're saying we should all practice the best options (in this case powershielding) until we can do them with 100% accuracy. That would be a sort of mistakeless play. Except games are lost over time. It is often the case that a player throws out a laggy move, one that wasn't going to hit and was just a pure bad decision, and from that dropped beat alone the other player can combo to death. Stocks are lost like that. But the ground that was lost leading to that point happened gradually and surely isn't available to the kinds of black-and-white analysis that "aww, he shouldn't have gone for that dsmash/grab/whatever there" is.

So in essence what I'm saying is games are lost between the lines more often than not, and you might have technically lost that stock due to some other factor before they even touched you. Sorry if the analogy wasn't clear.

Forgive me that I don't specify that there are physical limitations on what the human body can do.


People who argue for the sake of arguing are frustrating, especially when they ignore the vital points in the discussion just to argue detracting ones.

First of all: It's kind of a big deal that you didn't specify that, because humans are what we're talking about. Second of all, you actually stated the exact opposite of that.

Third, we're discussing aspects of a game we both play from differing points of view. I'm not "arguing for the sake of arguing" I'm having a back-and-forth. There's my piece, now you give yours.

It goes in waves like that.

also you can be a **** or you can have a conversation, but if you'd like to admit to being the almighty flying spaghetti monster i'd love to hear all about your omniscient noodley appendage

EDIT: this all precludes any discussion of individual style because it necessarily means all players would choose the same option unanimously by virtue of it being the best option

 

[Twinkles]

KK has been banned!

BY ODIN'S BEARD! thank the gods.

Not sure how this is a good thing.

I've always thought KK was quite an excellent poster around these boards, even if he gets a little snarky now and then.

 

[knightpraetor]

random few comments.. dash back powershield is a pretty easy way to lose stage space.
Either you dash back before you see the laser start (in which case if he didn't laser you just lost all your stage..

or you dash back after the laser (in which case if he went for an aerial instead you are now pinned and in shield, which is the whole situation we wanted to avoid in the first place.

And I used to have around 100% powershield rate on dashback with marth. it's not that simple or even enough to make the matchup even for marth. Leffen, you talk as if marths have not experimented or played around with your powershielding tricks at all. Dash back isn't some overpowered savior. walk forward powershield i honestly think would even the matchup out if marths could do it on command, but I don't think it's possible without removing your light shield which is a horrendous decision against falco, the shield piercing king.

Maybe if a marth comes along who can powershield with one trigger and use the other for light shielding it will be doable. But for marths like m2k and I who claw, that isn't really an option. I guess I could relearn my grip, but I'd rather just relearn a better char first.

And m2k's 2 sets against armada were not enough to demonstrate that marth struggles with peach as much as falco at top level. marth's have historicallly had trouble with both, but falco was always the bigger problem. m2k barely lost to armada with marth, I don't know why you would even use that in your argument

random aside: forget who was talking about stadium, but the whole argument just play defensively ignores the reality of the stage transforming while you are under pressure or while you are committing to an approach. stadium is bad unless you get lucky transformations.

 

[Purpletuce]

Why is KK banned? I think he is one of the most contributory members. . .

 

[Twinkles]

@KP After playing around with powershielding, why do you think it has not greatly helped the matchup for Marth against Falco?

@leffen/anyone who believes in powershielding and has used it: How do you think powershielding has helped you game against falco and what type of advantages do you look for after a successful powershield (positioning, a good grab, etc.)?

@Star King I can't help it! He was such an important part of my smashboards experience. =P

 

[The Star King]

I don't even know why I bother.

I give up.

Exactly what I was thinking. It's obvious you have no idea how muscle memory works if you think it can apply to powershielding.

Also KK asked for a temp ban calm down kids

 

[knightpraetor]

powershielding isn't that useful unless you can do it off of walk forward. at higher level, the matchup comes down to not losing stage positioning. dashing back loses stage positioning and powershielding in place is only good if you don't miss the powershield and get pinned (waiting and reacting without dashing back is a dumb idea that will get you pinned if the falco went for an aerial and)

if you can walk forward and powershield 100% your skill level vs falco becomes god tier. I've had matches where that was happening and the falcos ended up being quite helpless. Maybe they could adapt given time but for falco to have an advantage on marth off a laser he needs a particular spacing. walking forward breaks that spacing. dashing back merely loses you stage space unless you hit the powershield.

if you hit the powershield you get advantage but not a guaranteed punish but on small stages falco only needs to bait the dash back twice to have completely pinned you against the edge

also, not sure how viable this is but when walking forward and powershielding I often grab falco during his fastfall. Anyway, falco can adapt by giving you more space but that's what marths need to be able to have free movement in the matchup

 

[leffen]

I'm not gonna say why powershielding its useful and why its not, simply because I don't want to spill my secrets before Apex or whenever I feel like I don't need them (and no other top player is sharing **** anyway).

I have a bunch of REALLY useful techniques that I'm 99% sure that no one has ever thought of or used... some of them are incredibly broad and are really useful for the entire cast (I find lots of new ways to abuse it every time I spend time in the lab)

The best part is many of them are impossible to detect unless you know exactly what you're looking for.

I actually think I'm gonna pull a M2K and refuse to play on recording set ups during tournaments until Apex.., but at Apex, you're in for a treat :>

Actually, since we recently got a recording setup working I think I'm gonna upload some of my techniques with other characters and just put them on private and only show it to ppl who main the character.

@KP: Its not like doing walk forward ps is hard LOL, its really easy and its the one I use the most as marth >_>
Dash back is just what I show to scrubs who can't figure stuff out themselves so I can abuse it when I play falco LOL.

 

[john!]

ethereal, the skill of powershielding lasers is a conscious reaction which changes based on external stimuli. it doesn't count as "muscle memory" because MM is by definition an unconscious reaction which does not change. you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[knightpraetor]

well leffen I for one think marth can win the matchup if you can do the walk forward powershield on command as a mixup so they cut back on the lasers because of the increased risk of them getting grabbed.

However, while I've had matches where I could powershield consistently that was only after playing against a laser campy falco for 2 hrs straight. Who is going to practice this right before your match with a falco main? I know I don't normally get that practice. You said that you can powershield consistently without practicing right before, but so far no marth has been able to demonstrate that in video. Ice was supposed to be the one, but he failed. And I understand..at a tourney he has to play millions of other matchups..when he sits at home with a falco friend of course after 20-30 matches he is godlike at the powershielding.

 

[leffen]

I thought it was common knowledge that Ice wasn't as good as me at powershielding. Ice is also known to be awful at FD (he can't chaingrab with marth lol)

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

do i get matches with you again this year at leffen? =0

 

[Twinkles]

It was certainly known that Ice's powershield game wasn't as good as many originally thought, but I hadn't heard much about your powershield game leffen. And I don't watch too many european players in general. Sounds promising though

 

[VoiD-]

do i get matches with you again this year at leffen? =0

See what happens when you don't capitalize your name

people treat you like a common noun

 

[JPOBS]

Except power-shielding is based on a set timing. A certain visual cue (i.e. where the laser is relative to your character) triggers your action (muscle memory).

Regarding the "Phantom hits" post, I am sorry to say that you are wrong; a player could train his or her self to repeatedly Phantom Fair with Peach to punish Puff's rest, and never mess up that spacing.

It's human nature to decry that which we find difficult, but ability is not limited, only effort.

What planet do you live on?
Cause they must have some serious chronic where you're from, I can smell dope you smoke from here

 

[Doser]

It's human nature to decry that which we find difficult, but ability is not limited, only effort.

Yeah, I'm going to want to see some proof behind this claim. Stating that humans have unlimited ability is something that requires a lot of evidence and explaining.

In fact, we have evidence against this claim when it comes to sports, academics, and basically any activity.

No matter how hard someone trains they will never be able to react to a 5 ms window consistently, let alone anything below 1 ms.

 

[KrIsP!]

Why is KK banned? I think he is one of the most contributory members. . .

Is he? If so he probably asked to be banned to focus in school work or something. I know he's self banned before for whatever reasons he had.

 

[Divinokage]

KK probably thought there were too much *******s in SWF.

Anyhow, we have unlimited potential! Only scrubs would look for outside sources to mental block themselves into believing we don't have it.

 

[Beat!]

walk forward powershield i honestly think would even the matchup out if marths could do it on command, but I don't think it's possible without removing your light shield which is a horrendous decision against falco, the shield piercing king.

You don't have to sacrifice light shielding, though. Did you read my post?

 

[EthereaL]

Yeah, I'm going to want to see some proof behind this claim. Stating that humans have unlimited ability is something that requires a lot of evidence and explaining.

In fact, we have evidence against this claim when it comes to sports, academics, and basically any activity.

No matter how hard someone trains they will never be able to react to a 5 ms window consistently, let alone anything below 1 ms.

Within the scope of the physically possible, humans have no limit to their ability. However, everyone can push their bodies to the limit of the physically possible; there is only a lack of effort to do so.

For example, using your reaction time vommentary. The average reaction time is 200 milliseconds. The limit of human capabilities is just above 100 milliseconds. The ability for a person with that average reaction time to reach this mark is not limited; some people will be able to reach it more readily or easily, but the ability to reach that point is not limited.

I am not suggesting that humans can literally grow wings and fly if they "tried hard enough". Good Lord.


Edit: I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I suppose my faith in several people's ability to understand that a statement is not always meant to be taken at its extreme cases at all times is misplaced.

 

[Ripple]

W

I am not suggesting that humans can literally grow wings and fly if they "tried hard enough". Good Lord.

Kage might bed to differ

 

[Divinokage]

Maybe when I ascend to a higher being.

 

[odinNJ]

Umm. Human thought and movement can be boiled down o small messages through nerves, and like a computer, humans are
Limited by the speed of those messages. Fact

 

[Dark Hart]

Maybe when I ascend to a higher being.

Not even Goku got wings

 

[outofphase]

lol at all this pathetic philosophy being applied to PSing. is it within the realm of possibility? yes. is it at all likely for somebody to do it consistently enough to make an impact vs falco? no, if so it would have happened by now. if it becomes the status quo falcos will just learn to ps right back

 

[Twinkles]

ethereal, don't be an ******* if you want to get a point across, even if someone else was an ******* first. you wanna be the better person in the argument, it will help you look like not an ******* to someone who isn't an *******.

anyway, regardless of whether or not powershielding can be "perfected", it can certainly be "refined" to be a legitimate tactic from what i can tell. reacting to lasers isn't just reacting to the laser once it's right in front of your shield, it's reacting to the sound and falco's gun animation before the laser even fires, which i believe is very possible to do if someone trains themselves to react to it. after that, it's timing, something that can be learned. also, you could probably bait out lasers by just being away from falco, so you have some control as to when to expect lasers.

i mean, we all know humans have limitations, but it seems to me like powershielding is well within human capabilities. at least, that's what it looks like to me.

EDIT:
@outofphase I dunno, if Falco's start powershielding lasers back, wouldn't that force them to bring up their shield? I feel like even making them do that would reduce the amount of pressure they could put on someone but i dunno, that's just theorybros from me.

 

[Kimimaru]

i mean, we all know humans have limitations, but it seems to me like powershielding is well within human capabilities.

I agree with this.

no, if so it would have happened by now.

However, I don't agree with this. A good example is shield dropping, a very useful technique (which is muscle memory thus being easier than PSing), yet very few players have actually integrated it into their play.

Even if players can't PS 100% consistently, I'd say 80-90% consistency is pretty menacing to Falco players. They'd have to think more about when/where to laser than they do currently.

 

[Divinokage]

I can guarantee you every opponent I face mixes up their moves because I can PS them pretty consistently into a counter-attack jab for example. When Im grounded, i can do it pretty well.. lasers is harder.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

1. The stagelist and ruleset should not be used as a means of balancing the characters. Some characters are just better than others, and some characters (marth) being worst than others (spacies) is not a good enough to enforce rules just to help buff one character or another. Its not Falco's fault marth sucks.

Every ruleset and every stagelist we make affects the balance of the game.

By having bans, we eliminate a big part of Marth's gameplay. Why do you think most modern Marths suck at chaingrabs these days? Because they never need to use it; FD is always banned. ****, spacies sometimes take it off random when they sit down to play friendlies. [also, Marth cgs take a lot of game knowledge and execution to 0-death. Very few people can consistently do it v. opponents who know how to DI]

Its pretty ****ing dumb that an entire different set of skills are tested in a best-of-5 than a best-of-3. It makes no sense. Spacies get a counterpick against everyone (they have 2 good stages against most of the cast - Stadium and either Yoshis/Dreamland, depending on the matchup) but no one can counterpick them back. All because we have a rule allowing players to ban stages, when all the stages (left) are flat and plain as ****. As you said yourself, its not Marths fault Fox gets chaingrabbed. Why do we feel the need to ban that aspect of his character out of the game completely?

I just don't get how Marths get so much **** for executing beautiful combos on FD and then spacies play like absolute *****es on Dreamland and somehow thats more legit.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm going to back my fellow Yoshi main on this, people suck at shield drops and PSing, although I don't think PSing will be gamebreaking, I also don't think how developed the game is indicates that it would have been developed by now. . .

Also, a Bo5 doesn't require a completely different skillset than a Bo3.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Bo5 = requires you to be good on every stage, because you will get counterpicked to your character's worst stage

Bo3 = Let's you autoban certain stages and never evolve strategies to deal with why you suck (or why your character sucks) on them (Peach/Puff autobanning Stadium, or Fox/Falco autobanning FD)

I think those are pretty significant.

+1 to TCB for being real

 

[Deleted member]

+1 @ TCB

also shield drop is 32580235908x better than powershielding will ever be.

 

[Purpletuce]

Having to play your character's hardest stage =/= completely new skillset.

Also, PSing has to take specific timing AND spacing and is pretty difficult, especially with moves that aren't very easy to see coming (ex: laser)

Shield dropping isn't hard, just most people don't commit to learning it because they think they'll just jump oos. Buffering a side input -> 45deg angle on joystick is a form of shield dropping that is reallllly easy. The more versatile way of shield dropping, which is what you're probably referring to (and which I do) simply requires a little timing.

Hint: Since it regards how fast you're going down on the joystick, starting with the joystick off to the side a little will give you a slightly longer area to get the movement in, so if you start with the joystick on the side(not far enough to roll) and then move down (faster than angling shield, slower than spot dodge) you can do it easier.

I'm a scrub low-tier main and I can do it, so you(SWF reader) should be able to as well. Also, I feel obligated to say my proficiency with this wavers based on how much practice I have with it. . . so in a match I might choke 3x in a row, but if I'm warmed up I can do it right when I mean to then platform cancel a U-air out of it (nearly frame perfect?)

Edit: To clarify: I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone, I'm just saying more people should do it. . .

 

[odinNJ]

PSing is fantastic against falcos dair, becuase the lack of lag allows you to instantly **** hime even before he gets the shine out.