Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

Why do you need to state your opinion arrogantly?

 

[leffen]

Because I don't think these stupid, biased excuses deserve any better.


Oh and shoutouts to Axe, you're definitely my favorite top player at the moment. A player that actually tries to find new things and who actually uses them in tournament.

 

[JPOBS]

1. The stagelist and ruleset should not be used as a means of balancing the characters. Some characters are just better than others, and some characters (marth) being worst than others (spacies) is not a good enough to enforce rules just to help buff one character or another. Its not Falco's fault marth sucks.

2.I actually agree with M2k that fox is a lot worst that falco overall from a practical standpoint.

3. When is europe gonna step up and show us that 98% powershield-falco-destroying metagame?

 

[Blistering Speed]

3. When is europe gonna step up and show us that 98% powershield-falco-destroying metagame?

If you're going to use ad hominem and be a biased ****, could you at least accomplish something yourself first? Fallacies are intolerable enough without hypocrisy.

 

[odinNJ]

I would like to clarify that by akward ledge I meant that if fox can shine people towards the inside of the ledge when they are off the stage it is really akward to get back. Its nothing big but it can mean death if the person isnt expecting it.

Also @ trying to be defensive on Poke, what m2k said about long stage and lasering, facts of life son.

 

[JPOBS]

If you're going to use ad hominem and be a ****, could you at least accomplish something yourself first? Fallacies are intolerable enough without hypocrisy.

It is hardly a ad hominem, it was more of a joke. Leffen and Armada have both said that Leffen is ridiculouly (98%) good at powershielding. I actually can't wait for Apex because I really want to see leffen go in on some falcos.

Hop off my nuts kiddo.

 

[Dark Hart]

Leffen Jason takes sets from HBox, HBox just takes more

 

[leffen]

Powershielding isn't as consistent as 98% with Fox since his shield is worse and when his shield durability is low he cannot power shield certain lasers. I don't think Fox really needs powershielding as much as some other characters though, since he outspeeds Falco enough that lasering is often a huge risk.

However, Javi clearly showed against PP that powershielding isn't needed to beat Falco, so imagine him perfecting it ;p (and look at Mangos fox vs Westballz too, shows how he can really outmaneuver Falco)


My "98%" powershield thing is with Marth btw, which I do not plan to play at Apex, sorry ;p I actually had a really good PS rate before SR, but since my controller broke and the new ones had entirely different L/R buttons I didn't get to show it off much (and I also played Falco because of the same reason).

Sad part is that we dont have a top level Falco in europe (OMFG HE IS SO BROKEN) outside of myself, so I can't really get enough practice to perfect the other parts of the match up (I wish I had a Tuga too ;>)

but do not fear, I'll be tappin PP and Mango fo sure, if my bro Armada doesn't take them out before me


@Dark hart: When was the last time M2K took a set? When they "traded" sets Hbox wasn't really as good as he is now (as in not top 4)

 

[Warhawk]

I hope Jigglypuff is 8th in the next tier list.

Right where she belongs.

How is she 8th? She loses to Fox, Falco and maybe Marth and ICs. Beats everyone else (maybe even with young link or Doc). I can't see her being any lower than 5th (which is where I think she belongs).

 

[leffen]

At a list where Fox is the best (aka you think about how good ppl will be IN THE FUTURE, basically), Jigglypuff should be around 8th.

 

[Mew2King]

I've beaten Hbox tons of times and close tons of times, close vs armada every time, close vs pp every time, close vs mango last time, and i **** most other players unless its a really good jiggs/ics/falco <_<. Do you even know what you're talking about or do you just like throwing around insults immaturely?

I am not 100% sure on the dreamland thing but maybe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb9bVcU7-Y0

I still think Diddy/Olimar/Falco are broken in Brawl.

I think I've done more lab work on this game than you imo.

I think you just like throwing around insults and making statements (some true and some false) as if they are a fact for whatever your beliefs are. At least I gave good reasons for my beliefs.

 

[Warhawk]

Are you saying you don't think Fox is the best or just that a list with Fox as the most important matchup severely hurts Puff? Even in the latter case I don't think she loses to Fox any amount significantly worse than Falcon and at least she doesn't get molested by Sheik.

 

[Mew2King]

power shielding a projectile is a 2 frame window. just FYI

does the shield have to start inside the laser? that's interesting

 

[leffen]

I've beaten Hbox tons of times and close tons of times, close vs armada every time, close vs pp every time, close vs mango last time, and i **** most other players unless its a really good jiggs/ics/falco <_<. Do you even know what you're talking about or do you just like throwing around insults immaturely?

I am not 100% sure on the dreamland thing but maybe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb9bVcU7-Y0

I still think Diddy/Olimar/Falco are broken in Brawl.

I think I've done more lab work on this game than you imo.

I think you just like throwing around insults and making statements (some true and some false) as if they are a fact for whatever your beliefs are. At least I gave good reasons for my beliefs.

You are close against Armada, and its close against Mango and PP (probably closer, since when you last played armada he wasn't the best). Yet Falco is broken? Oh wait, don't tell me, Peach is broken too. Thats the only answer.


"and i **** most other players unless its a really good jiggs/ics/falco <_<."
EXACTLY, does that mean Ics/jiggs/falco are broken or does that mean that you're just bad in those matchups? Probably the latter.

"I think I've done more lab work on this game than you imo."
You have, but you don't anymore. Thats the problem.


@M2K. No, it just has to hit your shield during the first 2 frames. You can lightshield the first frame if it hits during the second, for example.

Just try to do a dash away ->powershield with marth using the lightshield hack. You won't regret it.

 

[Mew2King]

Are you serious dude? Do you just like throwing around insults? Did you READ what I even said? I gave reasons for everything, and if you actually read what I said in my long post, I said I don't think Peach is that good, I think Armada is just that good with her and she has a fairly even matchup with falco head to head but she loses to many of the other top tiers in head to heads in ntsc which falco all have the advantage against esp when he learns the MU. I'm obviously better against Fox than Falco, but I gave numerous reasons for my beliefs. By your responses it's as if you didn't even read them or don't care.

about powershielding: so if I do a lightshield frame 1, then strong shield frame 2, it will still powershield the laser? Are you sure about that?

 

[Warhawk]

Mew2King why do you play Sheik vs Mango's Falco, but then use Marth against PP's Falco?

 

[Mew2King]

Mew2King why do you play Sheik vs Mango's Falco, but then use Marth against PP's Falco?

idk lol, i play sheik more usually. marth with FD is really good, without FD he's much worse. I still don't always trust my character choice and it may change in the future

btw, if anyone's going to Rom, a smasher from PA named "squall" took my white Zenith controller (at one of Vex's house tourneys just before Impulse), and ive been trying to contact him for 2 months and have been unable to. If anyone knows how to contact him plz let me know (he's not responding on facebook). currently I may need to borrow a controller for rom, as the ones i have are not good.

 

[Warhawk]

Zenith made it seem like you have a better chance of beating the Falco mains with Marth, but you always seem to use Sheik more vs Mango's Falco and so I was wondering if it had to do with their different styles or if it was just how you felt before the match.

 

[Mew2King]

i don't know entirely, i usually just use sheik more, but the more i do the MU the more i feel i should use a different character. I even consider fox sometimes even though i generally dislike that MU from the past

 

[leffen]

I don't think you understand my point. If peach loses so bad against other top tiers (like against Fox, who you use) then why is your record against him as bad if not worse than it is against the top Falcos?
Using "because Armada is better than Mango/PP" because that argument can just be used in the same way against you ("Mango/PP both have better records against other top players then you, so therefor it doesnt matter)


Why is your score worse against ICs? Is it because Fox loses to ICs?
The reason people don't take your "falco is overpowered" seriously is because you always blame it on the matchup. You lose to Diddy? Well he beats Meta knight. Oh you lost to Falco? Same thing.
And while you do provide reasoning, its often very poor ones. The examples you provide are always jsut your matches, and often against players that are considered better than you overall. What about Taj vs Mango? Looks like Fox is better than Falco there OMG. Things like wanting Jigglypuff banned, but Meta Knight shouldnt be banned because it wouldn't be fair.


and yes, I'm pretty sure that it'll still powershield. I just use the shield modifier though, so I never fail them for that reason anyway.

oh, and I think you should try fox against falco, and to use puff against hbox.
I think you can use a lot of the same things that you learned/use in brawl to your favor... but its not gonna be free, you'd still need to work for it

 

[Warhawk]

I dunno Mew2King's being pretty mild right now.

 

[leffen]

M2K is no doubt sounding much more sensible today/recently, I'm not trying to deny that.

 

[Warhawk]

It just felt like you were perceiving him as saying "Falco is broken" when he actually wasn't doing that this time.

Why do you think he should go Fox? I don't think his style of Fox play would work too well versus Falco.

 

[odinNJ]

I dont know how much fox vs falco would be an improvment for him. He already has the most fine tuned marth/sheik in the business, what would be the point of switching to an alt simply for the purpose of the matchup. (which falco still wins)

 

[EthereaL]

I think Powersheilding has a 4-frame window.

Good, now that I've said something obviously stupid and have your attention, I can go on with my actual post.



Once upon a time, I played competitive FPS games. I switched to a game called CrossFire in late 2009(it was an easy WCG ticket, but that's another story). CrossFire runs on a 150FPS cap.

Anyway, there was a technique called a crouch-hop, which allowed players to shoot perfectly accurately while their character was in midair. This was performed by inputting the "jump" command, and then by inputting the crouch command the exact frame the character left the ground. There is a 3-frame window after inputting the jump command and a character actually jumping. This means that the timing is extremely hard (duh).

The community at the time complained, "It's impossible to time that on such minimal visual cues," and "It's not worth the time because of inconsistent usage. If you miss the input, then your shot will be wildly inaccurate." Finally, a fellow WCG-hopeful (a player by the name of monSTAR) said, "Prove that it can be done, and then we'll believe you."

So, our team did. Within 6 months, we'd mastered it, and absolutely dominated when we took the offensive. It became such a powerful technique for entering rooms and clearing corners that the developers actually patched it before the year was out.

The moral of this story is this; if something can be done once, then it can be perfected. So perfect your powersheilding.

 

[Mew2King]

Dude, all I do is say what I think, and I try to provide the reasons. The long post I made provided multiple reasons for my belief. I think Armada has the most mastery of his character overall. I think PP/Mango are great players. I think Falco is overpowered and beats marth/sheik/fox and goes even with peach, although falco's much better than peach overall except for a fairly even head to head. I'm not the greatest vs ICs. I never brought them up. I only said what I think on various things and I provided reasoning for them.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm dubious that you have the 2nd best Peach M2K. But maybe you do...

I think Peach v Falco, in this stagelist...I feel like she has a small edge. She has FoD and DL (solid CPs), and FD (which is outright destruction). I think it's even on BF, solid adv. for Falco on PS, and I would say that YS is even, but shine KOs at 50 hurt...so slight Falco? But in a best of 5 where you can't ban FD, I think Peach/Falco on FD hurts more than Peach/Falco on PS. But I'm also a silly thinker.

When considering Puff's placement...remember that, of the top 7, she has the hardest time against mid/low tiers. Characters like Luigi, Doc, ICs (not exactly mid, however), YL, Link...

 

[General Heinz]

I'm more curious why you think IC's are better than falcon, m2k. Is it mostly for their matchups vs spacies?

And overall what do you think of falcon vs spacies? Is it really that slanted?

 

[odinNJ]

The moral of this story is this; if something can be done once, then it can be perfected. So perfect your powersheilding.

I think there is a limit to this,

ok everybody from now on only get phantom hit by moves, just space THAT well.

But seriously the problem is that people do not want to waste time practicing something that they view as next to impossible to do every single time

 

[KirbyKaze]

The problem with comparing PSing to phantom hit spacing is that spacing is more of a 2 player game whereas PSing is mostly in the hands of the PSer.

 

[The Star King]

I think Powersheilding has a 4-frame window.

Good, now that I've said something obviously stupid and have your attention, I can go on with my actual post.



Once upon a time, I played competitive FPS games. I switched to a game called CrossFire in late 2009(it was an easy WCG ticket, but that's another story). CrossFire runs on a 150FPS cap.

Anyway, there was a technique called a crouch-hop, which allowed players to shoot perfectly accurately while their character was in midair. This was performed by inputting the "jump" command, and then by inputting the crouch command the exact frame the character left the ground. There is a 3-frame window after inputting the jump command and a character actually jumping. This means that the timing is extremely hard (duh).

The community at the time complained, "It's impossible to time that on such minimal visual cues," and "It's not worth the time because of inconsistent usage. If you miss the input, then your shot will be wildly inaccurate." Finally, a fellow WCG-hopeful (a player by the name of monSTAR) said, "Prove that it can be done, and then we'll believe you."

So, our team did. Within 6 months, we'd mastered it, and absolutely dominated when we took the offensive. It became such a powerful technique for entering rooms and clearing corners that the developers actually patched it before the year was out.

The moral of this story is this; if something can be done once, then it can be perfected. So perfect your powersheilding.

lol, even if it's frame perfect, a set timing is much easier to master than something like powershielding. What I mean is that in the technique you described, it's consistently pressing the couch button after a certain number of frames after the jump button. This is pressing one button after another with the same timing every time, no matter what.

Muscle memory is a really powerful thing. You can have muscle memory for the technique you described. But you can't have muscle memory for powershielding. The input is simple. It's just the shield button. It's timing the button in accordance to the situation that's hard. Powershielding isn't even comparable.

A lot of people in the 64 community can do "fast" shines with Fox (must be frame perfect) pretty much consistently. Because muscle memory allows you to be able to consistently press the b button after the c button with a set interval between the two buttons. The people in the community you described were silly for thinking you can't master a set timing like that.

I might be conveying the difference poorly, not sure how to word it well. Hope you understand.

 

[Gea]

I'm more curious why you think IC's are better than falcon, m2k. Is it mostly for their matchups vs spacies?

I'm going to guess it's because their reward ratio can be even better than what Falcon can dish out (even more if wobbling isn't banned) and they have some unique advantages, like it being much more dangerous to grab them. They are also low traction and while they suffer from Ganon/Falcon's repetition recovery, they can mixup their recovery at least a little bit. Their uniqueness and overall strength allow them to handle trouble matchups much better with the expense of higher precision and control needed, and people often underrate their defensive strength. WD back and having the double shields can make them extremely difficult to get in on safely without devolving into wars of attrition over space.

Watch Chu's sets from Zenith for a really good idea of how good ICs are across the board, and note that while Chu is super consistent, he doesn't push his punishes as far as he could. It isn't that inconceivable that the ICs could be a better character than Falcon.

 

[KrIsP!]

I love the arguing between M2K and leffen then getting back to civilized conversation about power shielding.

 

[EthereaL]

lol, even if it's frame perfect, a set timing is much easier to master than something like powershielding. What I mean is that in the technique you described, it's consistently pressing the couch button after a certain number of frames after the jump button. This is pressing one button after another with the same timing every time, no matter what.

Muscle memory is a really powerful thing. You can have muscle memory for the technique you described. But you can't have muscle memory for powershielding. The input is simple. It's just the shield button. It's timing the button in accordance to the situation that's hard. Powershielding isn't even comparable.

A lot of people in the 64 community can do "fast" shines with Fox (must be frame perfect) pretty much consistently. Because muscle memory allows you to be able to consistently press the b button after the c button with a set interval between the two buttons. The people in the community you described were silly for thinking you can't master a set timing like that.

I might be conveying the difference poorly, not sure how to word it well. Hope you understand.

Except power-shielding is based on a set timing. A certain visual cue (i.e. where the laser is relative to your character) triggers your action (muscle memory).

Regarding the "Phantom hits" post, I am sorry to say that you are wrong; a player could train his or her self to repeatedly Phantom Fair with Peach to punish Puff's rest, and never mess up that spacing.

It's human nature to decry that which we find difficult, but ability is not limited, only effort.

 

[leffen]

Phantom hits are MUCH, MUCH harder to do than ppl think... You need to know every single angle (way over 200) and control the exact strength (255 different ones iirc) . I know Wak
(the TASer that uses phantoms for hrc) could not get phantoms well enough before Dolphin got upgraded to support every angle/strength

 

[Purpletuce]

Not really sure how much this affects things, but Leffen's Yoshi experience might have helped build his PS game. I could never PS things before I picked up Yoshi, but now that I play him, parrying has improved that aspect of my game. I think it only really helps you get a hold on it though because parrying has a 6 frame window, and within that window you can also reflect things. I think the larger window has allowed me to get a general feel for it easily, and as I play, a regular parry doesn't go punished, but a reflective parry (which I think is most similar to PSing *I think*) goes rewarded. So maybe . . . playing Yoshi subconsciously conditions PS timing?

Just an idea.

Edit: I just thought of something else, wasn't there another player from Europe (Ice) last year that was really hyped because of PSing? How did that work out? We will have to see.

 

[EthereaL]

Phantom hits are MUCH, MUCH harder to do than ppl think... You need to know every single angle (way over 200) and control the exact strength (255 different ones iirc) . I know Wak
(the TASer that uses phantoms for hrc) could not get phantoms well enough before Dolphin got upgraded to support every angle/strength

I know exactly how hard phantom hits are, but that doesn't change any part of what I've said.

I think you just like arguing.

 

[General Heinz]

I know exactly how hard phantom hits are, but that doesn't change any part of what I've said.

I think you just like arguing.

I think your position is more for your own overarching principles than for the sake of smash.

Sure those things are ideally within our reach but they are practically much more difficult to attain the further along you get.

Since neither player is perfect in any game the winner will only be the one who is more consistent, so safer/simpler but perhaps less rewarding strategies might be more favorably pursued.

But I suppose no one can really be blamed for flying towards the sun.

 

[EthereaL]

I think your position is more for your own overarching principles than for the sake of smash.

Sure those things are ideally within our reach but they are practically much more difficult to attain the further along you get.

Since neither player is perfect in any game the winner will only be the one who is more consistent, so safer/simpler but perhaps less rewarding strategies might be more favorably pursued.

But I suppose no one can really be blamed for flying towards the sun.

You're making an assumption that no player will ever play a game (from a technical standpoint) perfectly, which I do not believe is a valid assumption to make. You could argue, "Even top players mess up their spacing / wavedashing / ledgedashing now, 10 years into the game", which is true, but I believe that is a matter of pressure moreso than practice.

I will again say:

It's human nature to decry that which we find difficult, but ability is not limited, only effort.

 

[The Star King]

Except power-shielding is based on a set timing. A certain visual cue (i.e. where the laser is relative to your character) triggers your action (muscle memory).

OK, surprise surprise, you did not understand. Muscle memory is for things that are hard to input. Straining on your, you know, muscles. Is pressing the shield button hard? No. That's not the difficulty of powershielding. The technique's difficulty is in timing when seeing the projectile coming, so muscle memory DOES NOT apply because it's not a difficult action for your muscles to perform. The jump crouch works for muscle memory because it's a set interval between two buttons. Your muscles remember and master the (3 frame, I think you said?) interval.