Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

A massive grain of salt doesn't work as an expression.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, grim..so analytical

 

[Habefiet]

A massive grain of salt doesn't work as an expression.

Sure it does!

... okay, maybe not literally, but come on, I was just amplifying the idiom, that kind of makes it still work. You can't literally have a massive grain of salt, but you can have a massive... figurative... grain of... salt...

...kinda...

 

[KrIsP!]

Grim is just....salty.

 

[john!]

there are not enough grains of salt in the world to express the skepticism with which i take some of your guys' posts

 

[Habefiet]

We love you too john.

 

[KrIsP!]

Ill have none of you...John.

 

[Purpletuce]

Are you seriously taking Ken's theories into consideration? Maybe you're just misinformed, but most players disagree with those, for example, Armada and most people on this board seem to believe that Peach Marth is slightly in Marth's favor, but because an old player came out of retirement and didn't get 4 stocked left and right doesn't mean he understands the current metagame. Ken used to be the best player in the world, but after such a span of retirement, everyone should have expected 1. his theories would be off, 2. a huge amount of players have surpassed him. Read: Apex 2012 crews.

 

[john!]

We love you too john.

Ill have none of you...John.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What the **** is that

 

[Habefiet]

Are you seriously taking Ken's theories into consideration? Maybe you're just misinformed, but most players disagree with those, for example, Armada and most people on this board seem to believe that Peach Marth is slightly in Marth's favor, but because an old player came out of retirement and didn't get 4 stocked left and right doesn't mean he understands the current metagame. Ken used to be the best player in the world, but after such a span of retirement, everyone should have expected 1. his theories would be off, 2. a huge amount of players have surpassed him. Read: Apex 2012 crews.

Is this directed at me?

Okay since I apparently did not make this clear both in my initial post and my post attempting to respond to john! I guess I will just lay this out on the table and assume that it's my fault and my writing is even worse than I thought it would be after staying up until three watching that stream (lol writing johns):

No.

I do not think that Ken's theories have any validity whatsoever.

Nor, do I suspect, does anyone else who has responded so far.

I thought this was blatantly obvious from the style of my writing, but apparently it wasn't, and for that I apologize.

But some of his remarks got me thinking about Marth-Pikachu and how I know nothing about it, and in the stream chat as everybody was going "lol" at Ken's remarks about Marth-Pikachu, Taj quietly mentioned that he thought Marth-Pikachu was not as bad as the common consensus, which continued my line of thought on the matter.

So I tried to start a conversation about Marth-Pikachu, just to see what everyone thought about it.

Just to reiterate:

IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION TO IMPLY THAT I WAS ACCEPTING ANY OF KEN'S INCREASINGLY WHACKY RAMBLINGS ON THE STREAM LAST NIGHT AS FACTUAL OR REMOTELY RELEVANT FOR THE METAGAME. I AM SORRY THAT THIS WAS SOMEHOW UNCLEAR. I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A FUN WAY TO OPEN UP DISCUSSION ON A FAIRLY UNCOMMON MATCHUP. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. YAY MELEE.

Also holy **** what the **** is that thing

 

[Twinkles]

Ken was a really funny dude. Glad he came out and commentated, it gives me very good reason to rewatch everything I saw in tourney just for his commentary alone =]

 

[Habefiet]

Oh yeah it was a blast. XD

 

[Purpletuce]

I feel like we should blame Japan for the gif Jhon posted . . . also, I don't know you very well Haefiet, so I didn't have much to gauge you with as to whether or not you were serious, sorry.

 

[Habefiet]

I feel like we should blame Japan for the gif Jhon posted . . . also, I don't know you very well Haefiet, so I didn't have much to gauge you with as to whether or not you were serious, sorry.

Japan: The Consummate Scapegoat

It's aight, for one thing you don't appear to have been the only one that misinterpreted what I said which probably means the fault was on my end, for another my bad if I kinda blew up, I'm in a foul mood today. Let's be best friends for life. <3

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What the **** is that

It's quite obviously a man eating yogurt off of himself

 

[God with a Wavebird]

I like how Ken said some things that go against the status quo and people are just dismissing his opinions just because he hasn't played in years. Ken is one of the best players of all time and he's still better than 95% of the people in this thread.

If you don't think what he says carries any weight then you either think you have a better understanding of the game than he does (which unless you're one of the best players in the world, makes you an idiot) or you think you understand the game better than him because you read a lot of posts on smashboards (which, would also make you an idiot)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think what Ken's saying is tremendously biased and probably wrong for the most part.

Oh and FWIW I'd be mortified if I was worse than Ken in his current condition.

 

[KrIsP!]

Ken is one of the best players of all time and he's still better than 95% of the people in this thread.

95%? I dunno man, pretty much every good smasher in the current metagame ahs posted in this thread at least once minus mango cause...well...

Honestly, I was super happy to see Ken but this fanboyism and blatant rage at people speaking out against his opinions, he hasn't kept up with the metagame so there's no reason that he MUST still be able to be as knowledgeable as he was in his day. That's not to say every word he uttered was complete blather but come on? Do you think a rage post is going to solidify his opinions when so many have given good reason as to why certain things he said were wrong?

I'm not going to trust everything the guy says because he made the marth metagame from scratch back in the day, the game has changed and while he was always smart he didn't know the current stagelist or ruleset so that kind of off sets some of his opinions in today's metagame.

Real talk he did pretty good though, I was surprised by it, and a little sad he couldn't take a few matches in bracket.

 

[Divinokage]

I think what Ken's saying is tremendously biased and probably wrong for the most part.

Oh and FWIW I'd be mortified if I was worse than Ken in his current condition.

I was definitely going to post that but I refrained myself.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So you do have a filter. Interesting.

 

[Habefiet]

I was definitely going to post that but I refrained myself.

Would a true warrior stop himself from speaking the truths that needed speaking?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Do not encourage him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've been trying to encourage Kage that a real warrior picks a better weapon, like needles, or two hammers, for a while, to no avail.

 

[Svetsunov]

l or two hammers.

Obviously he should start playing Mr. Game and Watch

 

[Purpletuce]

What? I think most people on this board base their opinions off of things they don't understand through the posts of players better than them. Like in the topic of Peach vs. Marth, I disagree with Ken's biased opinion because I've heard a good number of people say otherwise, I would say the best two sources that I can 100% remember are M2K and Armada. So when I say Peach-Marth is in Marth's favor, I'm saying I believe that on the basis that M2K and Armada think that, and I think they would be right.

Also, it should be noted that God with a Wavebird's post might be directed at me, he is someone I know personally, and in our last exchange on Facebook, he seemed to be slighted by me. Oh well.

 

[Ripple]

m2k is know for his eccentric theories on character MUs.

it actually seems like most super top level players have obscure MU ratio thoughts.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Eccentric being that if M2K loses to it, it's the best character in the game and should be banned

 

[Purpletuce]

Which is why in this discussion he said his character (Marth) has a slight advantage over his opposition (Peach). I can't remember when this was, robably about a dozen pages back . . .

 

[God with a Wavebird]

Also, it should be noted that God with a Wavebird's post might be directed at me, he is someone I know personally, and in our last exchange on Facebook, he seemed to be slighted by me. Oh well.

It wasn't directed at you.
I just think a lot people on this thread don't think for themselves and they just repeat whatever is being said on this thread. For example if M2K were to post on here constantly I bet a lot of the people on this thread would believe she's better than Fox.

Saying that Ken is wrong about Pikachu vs Marth is dumb since I highly doubt more than a couple of people here have had a lot of experience at that matchup. I'm not saying Ken's right, but if you've never really had much experience in the matchup then you shouldn't be posting that he's wrong. Ken might have been gone a long time but the meta isn't that much different. If the meta where a shape I'd say it's still the same shape, just with sharper edges.

I like the idea of this thread, but most of the time I feel like it's garbage.
I'm gonna just go back to playing smash.
Maybe in a month or two I'll come back to this thread to rage more.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You learn very early on to keep the rage within you. Very...very early.

 

[Strong Badam]

It wasn't directed at you.
I just think a lot people on this thread don't think for themselves and they just repeat whatever is being said on this thread. For example if M2K were to post on here constantly I bet a lot of the people on this thread would believe she's better than Fox.

Saying that Ken is wrong about Pikachu vs Marth is dumb since I highly doubt more than a couple of people here have had a lot of experience at that matchup. I'm not saying Ken's right, but if you've never really had much experience in the matchup then you shouldn't be posting that he's wrong. Ken might have been gone a long time but the meta isn't that much different. If the meta where a shape I'd say it's still the same shape, just with sharper edges.

I like the idea of this thread, but most of the time I feel like it's garbage.
I'm gonna just go back to playing smash.
Maybe in a month or two I'll come back to this thread to rage more.

boring ad hominem from a dude w/ 31 posts
most of the people in this thread have a better chance of knowing anything about this match-up than you do

 

[Deleted member]

boring ad hominem from a dude w/ 31 posts
most of the people in this thread have a better chance of knowing anything about this match-up than you do

isn't attacking his low post count another form of ad hominem? i don't agree with him either, but still.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Rather than berate people for disagreeing with Ken's outdated opinions, why not post one of your own that you can defend in argument if you're really bothered by how we're all mindless drones? Might be more productive than what you're currently doing.

Or just vanish. You won't be missed if you do; we haven't really gotten to know you aside from you introducing yourself as a disgruntled opinionated smasher who feels the tier list thread sucks. Which, admittedly, it does. But you've not really said much else either.

 

[Lovage]

disgruntled opinionated former brawl+ players

edit: in the context of what SB quoted and responded with, i'm not agreeing with him at all lol, random 35 post dude brought up a good point

 

[Purpletuce]

Wait, the metagame hasn't changed much? Then why didn't Ken destroy everyone? The metagame has changed vastly, and proof of that is whenever people come out of retirement, they find that a huge amount of players surpassed them. In this game, everyone is still learning, and improving. Those that don't look to improve lose interest, leaving only progressive players, that will continue to pass the old metagame, more and more.

The only real yardstick we can put on Ken's ideas on MUs is if they are working, and from his performance, I'd say they are a little outdated. Especially considering that Ken is a good player, he is smart, reads, learning, etc. well, so the thing holding him back from still being a top tier player is probably his outdated experience.

Also, to defend God with a Wavebird, he is pretty good (ranked in our state), but he is in a state that is pretty behind, our most noteable smasher is Eggz, who is far beyond anyone else in Oregon, and the only other person you(this thread) might have heard of is Binx . . . so he isn't just some random guy

 

[The Star King]

Saying that Ken is wrong about Pikachu vs Marth is dumb, since I highly doubt more than a couple of people here have had a lot of experience at that matchup.

Welcome to the Melee boards. Where people have serious arguments about the worst character in the game despite playing the discussed characters about two and a half times a year.

 

[Gea]

Mewtwo vs Zelda, gogogo

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Mewtwo vs Zelda, gogogo

Has Taj ever played a Zelda? If he has we use the result of that to determine the MU ratio

Last hit - 50/50
Strong 1 stock - 60/40
High percent 2 stock - 65/35
Strong 2 stock - 70/30
High percent 3 stock - 75/25
Strong 3 stock - 80/20
High percent 4 stock - 85/15
Strong 4 stock - 90/10
JV 5 stock - 100/0

In favour of the winner.

 

[Zoler]

Mewtwo vs Zelda, gogogo

Mewtwo is infinitely cooler, but I do believe Zelda wins