Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KrIsP!]

Yeah it has been legal more often now, I don't know about all though. I think IC's deserves to be moved up from their own separate tier but not above falcon. Or maybe Falcon should be dropped to ICs tier. hmmm

S- Falco, Fox
A- Sheik, Puff, Marth, Peach
B-Falcon ICs

I like it but I'm sure people will disagree. On the other hand its not that radical. I'd like to hear more about why ICs should go up, they're good and while people John about Falcon a lot he still has a lot of tools and combos he can pull off. On the other hand few can play the ICs matchup, you guys need to get out there more.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I think ICs are generally underrated. It's so hard to tell much about their place in the tier because they are so few IC mains, and they are such a unique character that having matchup experience vs. them is a huge deal. I'm inclined to think they can keep up with all of the other top tiers, but I don't know enough about them to say for sure. I'd be interested to hear what Wobbles or another good IC thinks, or even someone that plays an ICs main all the time.

 

[Tomber]

I think ICs could be over Falcon, but I'm not too sure. I might make a post with my views on their placement on the tier list at some point, but for now I'll just quote one my posts from the ICs board.

[…] here is my view on ICs' match ups (in PAL):

Peach: 35 - 65
Fox: 40-60
Falco: 45-55
Marth: 50-50 or slightly in Marth's favor
Samus: 50-50 or slightly in Samus' favor
Falcon/Ganon: 50-50
Luigi/Doc: 50-50 or slightly in ICs' favor
Jigglypuff: 55-45
Sheik: 60-40
ICs>the rest

This is with wobbling allowed, btw.
The Sheik, Fox, and Ganon matchups might be a little worse for ICs in NTSC, but it's not that big of a deal.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm inclined to sometimes think that ICs/Peach is 3-7. Other times, closer to even. I don't really know.

With wobbling on, I think ICs beat Puff by a slight margin. With it off, Puff wins slightly, or it's maybe even. That matchup is weird.

Doc, ICs, and Falcon are a weird trio, because I think that they all have the same viability at this point and it's silly to try to order them, but at the same time it feels like there should be some separation between them, since Falcon is still considered high tier, and ICs aren't quite mid or high, and Doc is the best of the mediocre characters, and those places seem to be very good for them.

ICs specifically: It's certainly nice to have 0-death grabs on the entire cast (well, not 0-death literally), but if you get hit once, it's literally a train wreck as you try to save Nana, keep good stage control, resync, etc. It's funny how strong their punishment is, but how fragile they are. Doc and Falcon don't really have to worry about randomly exploding because they caught a stray hit once. And both characters are better at neutral (I think) than the ICs. ICs don't sport precise, quick control of their movement via dash dancing, and as such seem to rely a lot on wavedashing which is quite imprecise, but lengthy and fast, I suppose) and shielding and throwing things. I don't think highly of characters who are kind of required to play so much of their game in shield (exception being Peach, only she's not realy required to), because they forfeit a lot of options that way, and if their opponent is decent at L-cancelling against them, it becomes a lot harder to secure anything, when your Nana is eating shines and dairs and downsmashes. I guess ice blocks/blizzards are good, though.

Those are just my thoughts from playing someone who uses them now. I'd like to be educated as to why their first hit/neutral game isn't just mediocre, though.

 

[Gea]

Really don't see how Doc has the same viability as Falcon based on MUs alone. And no, this isn't one of those bawwww my character is trash posts. Just being realistic, Doc's tools and placements in bracket do not reflect him being on the same level as Falcon. Shroomed is amazing, no doubt. Doc has some great tools, but he's also held back by some garbage things often taken for granted by just about every character above him. His mobility forces him to either play extremely reserved or make some hard reads to get what brings the pain, he has a harder time dealing with Dreamland's platforms or top platforms, his recovery is just plain bad and his grab range for his mobility/jab just isn't there. He's one of those characters that does pretty dang well against everyone below him and has some tools to bring the pain to characters above him, but doesn't even really "win" against anyone above him.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

IC's neutral game varies soo much between matchups, as far as i understand them.the climbers have quick wavedashes+ iceblocks and blizzards which can force other characters with slow speed and/or no projectile(ex. ganon) to approach them.The mixup between nana doing sh blizzard, grounded, or the nanapult blizzard can be effective in controlling these approaches.
http://youtu.be/ULOBxULeZjc fly really controls ganon well here in the neutral game by waiting for him to approach with a full hop aerial and interuppting it with nana
I think that IC's speed and projectiles win the neutral game if used effectively as shown

 

[Divinokage]

It's the other way around, Ganon has to control your opponent in first place in order to box him in order to force him to move around. From there, you can predict his movement a lot easier.. ICs mobility isn't really that much better than Ganon since they have to account for Nana mixups and also platform maneuverability. You always have to be somewhat close to your opponent and I dont think ICs can pressure Ganon very well because his range and stun on shield from basically all his moves forces ICs to make predictable decisions. If you try to play Ganon by staying away from your opponent, you are not playing him right.. he isn't Falcon lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Really don't see how Doc has the same viability as Falcon based on MUs alone. And no, this isn't one of those bawwww my character is trash posts. Just being realistic, Doc's tools and placements in bracket do not reflect him being on the same level as Falcon. Shroomed is amazing, no doubt. Doc has some great tools, but he's also held back by some garbage things often taken for granted by just about every character above him. His mobility forces him to either play extremely reserved or make some hard reads to get what brings the pain, he has a harder time dealing with Dreamland's platforms or top platforms, his recovery is just plain bad and his grab range for his mobility/jab just isn't there. He's one of those characters that does pretty dang well against everyone below him and has some tools to bring the pain to characters above him, but doesn't even really "win" against anyone above him.

On the last sentence, I feel as though this is also the case with Falcon, that he doesn't really beat anyone above him (Peach, maybe). It's not so much that I think that Doc is underrated or that he has new technology that hasn't been explored (though he probably does), but I don't really have that much faith in Falcon as a character. I think "similar in viability" was a poor choice of words on my part, winning with Doc is harder than it is with Falcon for sure. I'm just of the opinion that the three might be close enough to warrant all being in the same tier. But I'm not 100% on that.

 

[Max?]

TBH, I don't think Doc has much technology left to discover. Doc players can play more gay and efficient by maximizing chain grabs and mastering throw -> Fair on the whole cast, but aside from that, I don't know of any gamebreaking change that could come from him any time soon.

Realistically the mid tier with the most potential is Luigi, and he really has a lot of room to grow.

 

[Gea]

I agree with OTG. Doc mains could do a few things to solidify his game, like not drop grab followups and learn how to use stuff like upB cancel OoS into certain options, but he has very few avenues to leg himself up that much and those all revolve around him scoring grabs. Maybe a few pill tricks but with no cancels you can only do so much, especially against anyone above him.

Falcon can at the very least handle Peach and Marth with solid results. Doc's best MU that gives him any sort of note is that he does decently vs Jiggs.

Anyways I understand what you're trying to say, I just think there is enough gap that Doc is in a different tier from Falcon.

 

[Zodiac]

Has anyone talked about getting a new tier list going? Much won't change but I think young link should probably move up due his recent tournament performance.

 

[choknater]

ylink has only done well because of the counter jigglypuff matchup

 

[Purpletuce]

I think the tier list is for a character's independent viability, and Armada's YL would not have made it to GF against Hbox without his Peach, so I think Armada's results with Y.Link shouldn't be considered too heavily when you place YL on the tier list.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Look YL won APEX 2012 we're just going to have to accept that YL is high tier and probably better than Falcon

 

[tarheeljks]

doc players: you don't think up b cancel oos has some mileage? After seeing lord's doc utilize it I practically begged shroomed to learn it

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think the tier list is for a character's independent viability, and Armada's YL would not have made it to GF against Hbox without his Peach, so I think Armada's results with Y.Link shouldn't be considered too heavily when you place YL on the tier list.

No no no no it's the other way around. We should actually judge peach to be even worse as she is unable to actually win tournaments and Armada had to pull out Y. Link to pick up the slack. Tier list should be High Tier: Y. Link, Low tier: Peach

 

[choknater]

doc players: you don't think up b cancel oos has some mileage? After seeing lord's doc utilize it I practically begged shroomed to learn it

can it combo into things? cuz it has the up-b landing lag after it right?

 

[Gea]

It can occasionally (mostly on ffers at decent %s), but it isn't going to magically make him a good character. The range on it is extremely close as well. It just mildly helps his OoS game. It does send people at a nice angle, though. And despite it being a 1-frame to do move, it actually isn't that hard to pull off.

 

[KrIsP!]

Mid tier
8. Young Link
9.Falcon
10. Marth(so many gaping flaws)

@KK Oh so now that a good player posts his opinion on YL its suddenly not laughable. ^Pg177 get at me.

Spoiler

I'd really hate for people to get trolled by this...again

 

[Bones0]

No no no no it's the other way around. We should actually judge peach to be even worse as she is unable to actually win tournaments and Armada had to pull out Y. Link to pick up the slack. Tier list should be High Tier: Y. Link, Low tier: Peach

This is unfair because Armada is a Young Link main who just happens to use his Peach secondary in tournaments because he knows most people can't even beat his Peach, let alone his Young Link.



How do you do the up-B cancel?

 

[Gea]

How do you do the up-B cancel?

The up-B cancel is a cancellation of a move that can cancel the up-B animations of Dr. Mario. To do it, have Dr. Mario use his Super Jump Punch and then during the first four frames, quickly move the control stick in the opposite direction. Another way the player can do it is to use Super Jump Punch so Doc would jump backwards and then press the control stick downward during the first few frames of the animation. This can be used for combos (similar to Fox's Reflector) or to shield cancel and punish the opponent for approaching or for trying to break the player's shield. This move also has set knockback.

Here is a recent tutorial and A video showing off some uses

I thought it was one frame to do because I thought it was on frame 4 you slam to the other side kinda like SWD, but I could be wrong and it could be just a 4 frame window. I actually do it differently from the video but it isn't that hard to get down consistently.

 

[Jayk]

Random n3wb post:

Can someone explain to me about Peach's spacy matchups?
From what I've seen people say Fox-Peach is like, 60-40 in favor of Fox, while Peach-Falco is even.
My experience is actually the complete opposite and if someone could maybe give me some reasons why it is that way?

Quick Thoughts on these matchups
Peach has similar offensive game against both (Chain grabs if you can find the flat ground, easy ish edgeguards, just nairing them a lot and stuff).

Fox and Falco both have good offensive game against Peach (Fox can kill really easily either by U-Smash, U-Air, or shining offstage, while Falco I find racks up damage really easily, but has to work a little harder to get the kill once he's there).

But what breaks it for me is that Falco's offense seems so much more difficult to defend against as Peach: Falco shield pokes me more easily, and his lasers disrupt my attempts to control the flow of the game.

Its possible that the Falco players I know are just better than the Fox ones, or that I just don't know how to fight Falco, but with my secondaries I can handle Falco much better than I can with Peach, and compared to the other players in my group the Fox players are generally better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach is slow and spacies abuse her for this. Falco's worse at it though because you can PS lasers and then float over the follow ups and his general maneuverability is just worse so it's easier to corner him and harder for him to attack her out of her float setup (general slowness and awkwardly huge jumps are a clunky mix). Fox is harder because kill power superiority aside you basically can't PS dash dance, full jump, double jump, or platform waveland. He has way more ways to attack floats too, which makes the float setup more vulnerable even if she does get it. And harder to go for in general.

So despite Falco's shine being good and offensive shield pressure stuff, at the end of the day Fox's movement flexibility is just worth more vs a character who loses mainly to movement abuse by the opponent. Fox's shine also combos into really low percent KOs and combos effectively in its own right because she's easy to waveshine into his entire ground moveset so there's some nice flexibility there. On top of that, she's slow so she's easy for Fox to tug out of position when she's trying to zone or trap you because while she can work reactively, it's hard to do it (slow fair, slow movement). Coupled with how effectively Fox prevents her from getting her float zoning set up (he's fast and can hit her out of it with his quick sex kicks) whereas Falco's lower speed hurts his ability to do this so seamlessly and you've got a tougher MU.

Fox being better at attacking from many angles also empowers his offense a lot. And his dair, shine, and bair are good offensive tools (plus his amazing dash dance grab) so it's plausible for him to play offense anyway just 'cuz he can play an attack style that focuses on not letting her set up her float and then focuses on managing her ground game (the second part of her character - and he can do this; he's fast enough and all she really has for a proactive ground move is dash attack, which is solid but has obvious weaknesses - and everything else is almost strictly a poke or counterattack).

Falco is still solid though because his combat tools are great vs her defensive suite (shine-grab, shine-shine, and dair beating CC are good vs her normal shield & crouch defenses) and he has good combos on her even if it requires improv a lot of the time. He's also okay about shooting her down from her float but it's a more elaborate setup than jump-kicking her (platform laser nonsense). There's also a nice consistency to him since he's less susceptible to SDI and crouch as a character.

On the flipside, Peach has a really strong combat game vs them with her turtling between her numerous counterattacks, high priority ground options (dash attack, d-smash), and her gigantic fair. Once she's in a solid float stance it's hard to approach her - if spacies fail to deny her this they have to either take preventive measures, give up stage, or take risks to get control back. Which aren't bad options, honestly, but they're far from perfect and she can tweak her drift & game from this position to suit each of those (takes finesse, but doable). Furthermore, Peach having so many 0% knockdown moves and set combos out of throw at low percents greatly assists her in making a death combo once she lands that hit. One of her best advantages is that she can legitimately death touch the spacies with a good combo sequence (and they can't do that to her nearly as well - it's far less reliable and Peach naturally has more chances to get out). This obviously helps her keep pace with them despite their more flexible, cohesive, variable neutral games. Her recovery is also okay but the spacies have good tools vs it. That said, she can recover decently if she manages her options effectively.

Fox's grab is also better vs her IMO and that's a big deal when one of her best combat tools is shield. Grabbing and then getting a kill or free hit is better than having to pressure her for a while to get a random poke or something (more chances for her to counterattack). That said, Falco's grab has been developed more so it's better than it used to be. But he still doesn't have anything as glaringly effective as u-throw > uair.

So yeah

Falco-Peach even
Fox-Peach some amount Fox advantage

Seems correct to me.

 

[Jayk]

So if a Fox player was highly aggressive in the matchup and kind of negated his own movement advantage by being on the offensive and attacking, it might be closer to even?
Because he would lose his movement advantage and essentially always be in that situation you talk about where Peach can beat Fox by keeping the distance close?

 

[choknater]

yeah fox needs to pick his angles and attack timings wisely, because if he rushes blindly he will lose to bad trades or peach's priority.

fox needs to use a combination of attacks and evasion and try his best to make peach slip up for a clear opening. peach is amazing defensively because she has answers to pretty much everything, but fox has the movement speed not only to attack, but also to bait and punish

 

[KirbyKaze]

So if a Fox player was highly aggressive in the matchup and kind of negated his own movement advantage by being on the offensive and attacking, it might be closer to even?
Because he would lose his movement advantage and essentially always be in that situation you talk about where Peach can beat Fox by keeping the distance close?

I think offense with Fox is okay in the MU but it needs to be done to emphasize denying Peach her float setup so he can just beat her ground game the way he beats up any slow character's ground game. So I guess there's some mobility abuse when all's said and done but welcome to Fox. That's how he rolls.

Whether on offense or defense, I feel Fox's biggest obstacle vs Peach is just how tough it can be to just do anything substantial to her, how constricted his option pool is because of her natural defenses, and his fragility vs her punishment (she doesn't always get 1 hit = 1 stock but when it happens it can undo so much work). But in terms of movement disparity, maneuverability, and stage presence I really have no idea how she actively creates an opening on him. As usual her movement is enough to turtle but not much else.

Blargh. I wish the good floaties didn't like stalemates (or borderline stalemate scenarios) so much. Oh well.

 

[Divinokage]

That last statement is pretty much the testament of years of frustrations dealing with top tiers. When stuff doesnt work the way you want to, you start playing much more defensively.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When things start to look grim, I look for grabs.

 

[odinNJ]

^^ this

grabs can change things around.





ok everything can change this around, this game is really unstable.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When things start to look grim, I switch to Metaknight

owaitwronggame

 

[standardtoaster]

metaknight is banned in the MBR ruleset anyway

 

[Divinokage]

When things start to look grim, I look for grabs.

Really? For me if I ever get frustrated, I start to focus and increase my killing intent to the maximum which means I either spam more moves or I'm able to hit every hit in succession, that feeling so great with Ganon. lol. It's like time stops literally and then your opponent dies without him knowing what happened.

 

[Purpletuce]

Such absolute statements beg to be countered. So, why have you been unable to increase your killing intent against players who you tend to lose against?

 

[unknown522]

Really? For me if I ever get frustrated, I start to focus and increase my killing intent to the maximum which means I either spam more moves or I'm able to hit every hit in succession, that feeling so great with Ganon. lol. It's like time stops literally and then your opponent dies without him knowing what happened.

remember, he gets an infinite combo/death out of his grab. So that's why

 

[Wake]

Really? For me if I ever get frustrated, I start to focus and increase my killing intent to the maximum which means I either spam more moves or I'm able to hit every hit in succession, that feeling so great with Ganon. lol. It's like time stops literally and then your opponent dies without him knowing what happened.

Stop trying to make Ganon sound good.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's not like we like stalemates....Fox just doesn't give us much of a choice, lol.

And yeah, who knows how she creates openings, really. Maybe Armada does.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Her openings come from a combination of FC F-Air and blind hope.

Realistically though, Fox players **** up constantly. Nature and demand of the character. Just wait and watch for it as best you can -> death touch.

 

[Deleted member]

the best strategy against fox is usually the same as the best strategy against marth: hope that the player is bad, or wait until they do something bad. modern smash players do not focus on technically and strategically correct plays, but rather focus on some subset of previously-encountered situations. the lack of structured learning is easily exploitable in the short run and equally easily avoidable in the long run with focus and self-realization.

the ideal goal in competitive smash is no longer about playing to win, but rather playing to improve. the best thing a mediocre player can do is to structure your learning process. you are not necessarily a bad player, you are just a player that is making bad plays for one reason or another. you can simply stop doing this behavior at any time by choice. sometimes you won't always make the best play because of your reaction speed, weird or new interactions, and so forth, but improvement is not a complicated process, and you can just try to figure it out as you go while sticking to proper play.

however, you can still win in the short term with a basic understanding of why something in particular is bad, and then you can often stall until it happens based purely on the ineptitude of the opposing player. with marth, most of the players are just actively horrible and you can trade favorably with them. with fox, you rely harder on how frail he can be or how he randomly gets screwed by refined micro-interactions like SDI. i agree with blistering speed that fox players **** up a lot, but i think that it's more about the nature and demand of the game for the players moreso than the character.

 

[Divinokage]

Such absolute statements beg to be countered. So, why have you been unable to increase your killing intent against players who you tend to lose against?

If you want to win then you need to be firm in what you believe in at least. Anyhow those players I lose against are either better than me overall or they know when I'm going to use these kinds of techniques because they have been fighting me for years. When you know me inside/out it's really hard for me to change completely how I think when I play because that means I play outside with how I trained myself. For me, it doesn't work.

Stop trying to make Ganon sound good.

Well if I'm that good with him then he can't be that bad, he still has some potential.

remember, he gets an infinite combo/death out of his grab. So that's why

I guess so!

 

[S l o X]

Well if I'm that good with him then he can't be that bad