Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Beat!]

Yes, I play PAL, but Falco's (relatively speaking) better in PAL, so that's not why. He's 3rd on my PAL list.

 

[JPOBS]

how is Marth's matchup spread better than Falco's?
Falco beats everyone (or even AT WORST) and Marth loses to sheik, falco, and randomly struggles against falcon, ganon, jiggs

dis aint 2007

 

[Beat!]

Well, I obviously disagree with a lot of that. Do you want me to post my matchup spreads for them, or should we just stop here and agree to disagree?

 

[Divinokage]

Falcon beats Marth and Ganon pretty much goes even with Marth too.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think Falcon beats Marth. It's really even IMO, slight advantage Marth if anything.

 

[Divinokage]

Ok how many top Falcons lost to top Marths? I think the Falcons always won generally and also outplaced the Marths.

 

[Beat!]

I don't think Falcon beats Marth. It's really even IMO, slight advantage Marth if anything.

I agr ee.

 

[Ripple]

beat, why do you even theorize about NTSC metagame? do you own a NTSC copy and play it?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ok how many top Falcons lost to top Marths? I think the Falcons always won generally and also outplaced the Marths.

Hax lost to Taj at Genesis 2
Darkrain has lost to Dart
SS has lost to various Marths

I can get on board with "also outplaced the Marths" in a very general sense but Falcon doesn't really dominate the Marths in terms of head to head AFAIK

 

[JPOBS]

Well, I obviously disagree with a lot of that. Do you want me to post my matchup spreads for them, or should we just stop here and agree to disagree?

i would like to hear what you think about their matchups

 

[EthereaL]

Marth goes even-ish with Sheik and Falco...most people are relatively bad at the Sheik matchup.

I could see Marth being a top-3 character if more players understood and abused how Marth should be played.

Falco wouldn't be first if players had better PS games. It hasn't happened in years, though, so I don't know how likely it will be.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Marth goes even-ish with Sheik and Falco...most people are relatively bad at the Sheik matchup.

I could see Marth being a top-3 character if more players understood and abused how Marth should be played.

Falco wouldn't be first if players had better PS games. It hasn't happened in years, though, so I don't know how likely it will be.

Trust me, Power Shielding isn't what is holding everyone back against Falco. Also, I don't see Marth being a top 3 character, since he is fairly easy to kill and has limited options unless he grabs you.

 

[JPOBS]

Marth goes even-ish with Sheik and Falco...most people are relatively bad at the Sheik matchup.

I could see Marth being a top-3 character if more players understood and abused how Marth should be played.

Falco wouldn't be first if players had better PS games. It hasn't happened in years, though, so I don't know how likely it will be.

It baffles me that people believe plyers don't "understand and abuse" how marth should be played, when marth was the dominant force in the metagame for over half a decade. Marth's metagame is probably the most fleshed out and advanced of all characters so far because he has always had a top player pushing him since the beginning.

Far more likely, is that marth just has a lower ceiling than fox/falco/sheik and he's been figured out and the anti-marth metagame is so strong and exposing marth for fraudulence.

 

[Beat!]

beat, why do you even theorize about NTSC metagame? do you own a NTSC copy and play it?

Yes.
Every time I hit someone with Marth's dair I'm filled with a mixture of orgasmic satisfaction and regret.

PAL and NTSC aren't exactly worlds apart anyway.

@JPOBS

vs Fox
Marth - even. Could be a slight advantage either way, but not enough to matter.
Falco - slight disadvantage.

vs Sheik
Marth - slight disadvantage
Falco - evenish (same as Marth vs Fox)

Head-to-head
Marth wins. Possibly not by much, but I'm convinced it's in his favour.

vs Puff
Marth - decent advantage (fthrow/dthrow pivot fsmash is devastating)
Falco - evenish

vs Falcon
Marth - slight advantege
Falco - advantage

vs Peach
Marth - decent advantage
Falco - even

vs ICs
Marth - slight/decent advantage
Falco - advantage/decent advantage

That's it for the most relevant characters.

 

[Divinokage]

Hax lost to Taj at Genesis 2
Darkrain has lost to Dart
SS has lost to various Marths

I can get on board with "also outplaced the Marths" in a very general sense but Falcon doesn't really dominate the Marths in terms of head to head AFAIK

Ok I guess Ill have to do it then..

 

[RFrizzle]

Pretty sure flaco beats fox and beats marth head to head by a fair margin these days.

 

[Europhoria]

I don't think Falcon beats Marth.

I largely support this statement SB. I used to feel Falcon won. Now, I think it's like 6/4 for Marth vs. Falcon >_> I'd be willing to concede to even maybe, but I think it's a stretch You hit Falcon *pretty* hard.

I dunno where this Marth loses to Falco stuff comes from either. I think that's reasonably even, but if you like, held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a character with an advantage I'd have to give the advantage to Falco I guess. I just don't get on board with like M2K's *****iness about Falco cause he always loses to one.

I think he only really loses to Sheik and maybe Puff. Puff is pretty weird. Although Fly hinted the ICs might have a slight advantage xD (where Trail and Nintendude both were more in the even match up camp when I asked them at BH2). I'd actually like to hear more about Fly's opinion on that match up because I still think Marth wins it slightly.

I think he beats Ganon too Kage

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

if he does beat ganondorf, it's by a ridiculously small margin.

super even matchup.

 

[JPOBS]

Beat, I largely disagree but theres nothing for it really. You also didnt mention ganon which i think is relevent cuz marth struggles vs him but he is pretty free to falco

 

[Beat!]

I think Marth has a decent advantage vs Ganon. Falco does better, though.

 

[Strong Badam]

@Kage: I generally dislike the "[X character] players outplace [Y character] players" argument for tier placement/head-to-head, especially among the top 6-8ish characters. Match-up ratio is only significantly important in a few match-ups between those characters, in reality in most cases when a player beats another it's because they outplayed them, not because of the match-up. Like, "Falcon beats Marth because Hax beat PewPewU" doesn't actually tell me anything about why Falcon supposedly beats Marth... and there's nothing there for me to try to dispute other than continue a pissing contest of mentioning times where a Marth player has beaten a Falcon player, which I have no interest in.

 

[Twinkles]

@KK Which Marths did SS lose to often? Just curious, because every match I watch SS in he usually beats whatever Marth he's playing (4-stock Taj, beating Strawhat Dahean at Pound 4 when Darkrain lose to him, etc.).

Falcon vs. Marth seems like such a swing matchup to me, it feels like one small adjustment in playstyle can drastically affect how a match goes.

 

[Bones0]

Talk about Marth vs. Falco, Beat!. I'm curious what you think of it

Falcon vs. Marth seems like such a swing matchup to me, it feels like one small adjustment in playstyle can drastically affect how a match goes.

This is the same for every matchup in Melee...

Also PPU recently beat Scar.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

sorry, but no adjustment in playstyle can drastically affect how pichu vs sheik will go.

 

[Bones0]

*every relevant matchup.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think that changes of playstyle serve to move the player toward(or away from) their characters metagame, meaning a higher amount of skill. That would mean that playing MU the correct way means outplaying your opponent in some cases, and can seem to change the MU ratio, but that can be amounted to the player who moved into a greater advantage (or smaller disadvantage) being better, so the MU sees skew due to different levels of play, and the MU ratio should just be the correlation or tendency for a player to do better. Putting this toward a tier list implies top level play, and this becomes unnecessary.

Ex: Fox v. Puff:
When looking at bad(casual) players on an equal level, I would say Fox wins when the Puff doesn't know how to space or rest, making the MU in Fox's favor, but the counterargument would be that the MU is in Puff's favor when the puff spaces properly, and punishes the bad Fox with rest. this isn't a different MU, so much as the puff being better than the Fox.

Once the Puff is accepted as better in the MU, the counterargument becomes that it is in Fox's favor once the Fox stops doing silly things (U-throw-rested 2+ times a game) and starts using U-throw U-air, and U-smash, etc. Again, the same MU, but it is advantaged toward the higher level of play, and changes the way the MU plays out.

The real question should be once both players play the MU at the highest recognized level, what does it look like?



One trend I think I've noticed is once players move toward their character's highest level of play, the MUs tend to even out, for the most part, the only question is how easily can a player reach that highest level of play, and start to see their MUs even out? Some characters have different entry requirements for top level play (IMO), so how can they get there, and how difficult is it for most players?

(I might be talking out my ***, but) I think a better aspect to look at than how well a character is placing, is how hard the players have to work to get to that top level of play in their MUs. Obviously some MUs are worse than others, but the learning curves are a big factor in that.

IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

edit: **** it, bad idea

 

[Max?]

It baffles me that people believe plyers don't "understand and abuse" how marth should be played, when marth was the dominant force in the metagame for over half a decade. Marth's metagame is probably the most fleshed out and advanced of all characters so far because he has always had a top player pushing him since the beginning.

Far more likely, is that marth just has a lower ceiling than fox/falco/sheik and he's been figured out and the anti-marth metagame is so strong and exposing marth for fraudulence.

Agreed. JPOBS with the realness

 

[Little England]

S
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco
Puff

A
Peach
Falcon
ICs

B
Doc
Pika
Samus
Ganon/Luigi
Yoshi/Mario

I pretty much agree with this except falco ahead of sheik

And I think Marth's better than Falco because I think his matchup spread is better. Simple as that.

but ya this^

 

[Max?]

Falco beats or goes even with everyone. Marth loses to Sheik and struggles vs. a number of high/mid tier characters who Falco just steamrolls thru. How is this even a debate?

 

[Little England]

Easy, you say Falco loses to ICs and Marth and goes even with a number of characters. Marth loses to Sheik and goes even with a number of characters.

 

[Max?]

Except for the fact that Falco doesn't lose to IC's or Marth.

 

[Little England]

That's why this thread is useless. lol

 

[The Good Doctor]

Its the "character A beats character B but all of the character A players suck" debate.
Wonderful

 

[ShroudedOne]

I respect your list, Beat.

That is all.

It's not that hard to see that Marth has the tools to do well in this metagame, and it's not hard to see that the M2K/Ken style doesn't work anymore because it's 2012. Not because Marth is a fully understood character. In 2008, I'm sure most people would've said that Peach wouldn't win a national. Then Armada occurred. There just hasn't been a Marth past 2009 who has gone, "Hey, my character isn't bad guys. Stop being scrubs." But just because that player hasn't shown up, that doesn't mean that you can't look at today's Marths (PPU, PP, Bob$, Taj, etc) and go, "Yeah, this character can compete."

*sigh*

 

[Twinkles]

Let's all be cynical people and cry about why no one can understand us.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, sure, if you say so.

 

[Tomber]

This looks like fun. I'm in.

Anyone that would like to share their views on Falcon's match ups? I'd like to know what makes people put him over ICs consistently.

 

[KrIsP!]

Wobbling is banned.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I thought it had been legal at all the recent majors...