Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Pink Reaper]

Getting Leffen mad is something that absolutely everyone can enjoy though so there's no reason not to do it.

 

[Bones0]

Agreed. Why am I being watched? D: I've come to the conclusion that because of the underlying competitive theme in SWF, it will never be possible to please everyone, especially the people you might be compared to. (ex: I'm pretty sure I can get Leffen mad just by mentioning Yoshi at this point :/ ) Oh well. New goal: Be -generally- well received.

Also, I appreciate the sincere posts, Kage.

You shouldn't post to please others. Post what you believe and damn what others think of your reputation. If you self-censor your posts for general acceptance, then your reputation is fraudulent because it's based on someone with different opinions than your own.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I guess I've been deemed irrational because I don't agree with the status quo. lol

No, you just don't know what you're talking about a lot of the time and your points are poorly fleshed out and/or superficial. I can cite the Falcon vs Fox thing for an example. There are probably more but that one is the most standout. To your credit, it's easy to extract incorrect information from your posts because they're well written. That said, the analysis is still poor for the most part.

I don't want you to think I hate you. Quite the opposite - I am happy there are people like you who play this game. Radical thinkers are useful because they are way more likely to ask questions that people like me won't bother to simply because I view them as pointless or trivial (but sometimes they may have merit). This is especially useful when character power changes and such and old people like me who hate change take a conservative stance on the matter.

That said, if you're going to tell me some of your post's contents (and a frighteningly large amount of them, at that) hold their water when analyzed in a more cohesive way than what you were doing (I can say that, again, because of the Falcon vs Fox evaluation) then I'm going to simply leave this conversation because we've reached an impasse.

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't attempt to censor my content, but how I word it. Provoking thought with a question is generally more useful and well received then making a bold statement. I like to adjust the way I present what I think so that it is received to the best best of my intentions, although that will never be a sure thing. I've also found that since I'm a relative newcomer, it is beneficial to leave some ambiguity in what I say, because I know that it can be challenged.

Ex: I -think- Falco -might- be higher on the tier list because . . . What does everyone think?
vs.
Falco is better than Fox, obv.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

stop editing your post, I've seen it change like 9 times now

Getting Leffen mad is something that absolutely everyone can enjoy though so there's no reason not to do it.

i've missed you.

 

[Bones0]

No, you just don't know what you're talking about a lot of the time and your points are poorly fleshed out and/or superficial. I can cite the Falcon vs Fox thing for an example. There are probably more but that one is the most standout. To your credit, it's easy to extract incorrect information from your posts because they're well written. That said, the analysis is still poor for the most part.

I don't want you to think I hate you. Quite the opposite - I am happy there are people like you who play this game. Radical thinkers are useful because they are way more likely to ask questions that people like me won't bother to simply because I view them as pointless or trivial (but sometimes they may have merit). This is especially useful when character power changes and such and old people like me who hate change take a conservative stance on the matter.

That said, if you're going to tell me some of your post's contents (and a frighteningly large amount of them, at that) hold their water when analyzed in a more cohesive way than what you were doing (I can say that, again, because of the Falcon vs Fox evaluation) then I'm going to simply leave this conversation because we've reached an impasse.

I have no problem with people challenging my posts. That's half the reason I post my opinions in the first place. It's the scientific method applied to Melee theory. I'd be lying if I said your response to my Falcon vs. Fox post completely changed my mind as if I had "seen the light", but it certainly brought up things I hadn't considered or hadn't considered fully or looked at the same thing I looked at from a different perspective. Over time these ideas seep into people and then before you know it, I notice something while playing that relates back to what you were saying and BOOM, I've learned something. Hopefully you can learn the same sort of nuance through my posts even if they are less educated than yours (and I by no means expect you to learn as much from me as I will from you).


"**** off with your [tier lists] and [matchup ratios]. I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let... let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may." - Tyler Durden

 

[Purpletuce]

^similar to my reasoning for posting ideas. Also, I can't play melee between classes, but I can talk/learn about it via swf.

 

[Cactuar]

You're both idiots, imo.

 

[Bones0]

You '06 kids don't know anything!

 

[Purpletuce]

Lawl, what about kids from this year?

Fun fact of the day, this account predates my competitive play.

Check yourself, you're in the presence of a vet.

 

[Gea]

That just makes me feel extremely weathered.

 

[john!]

john you are right about the first part but dumb for the second part

a college mathematics professor tells you that .9999... equals 1

a twelve year old tells you that .9999... is less than 1

who should you rationally believe?

...

a literary critic tells you that don quixote is the greatest book ever written

a teenage girl tells you that twilight is the greatest book ever written

who should you rationally believe?

...

Spoiler

you think you're not an idiot

cactuar thinks you're an idiot

...

 

[Bones0]

The teenage girl might be a 19-year-old literary prodigy while the critic is just some grumpy old man that likes to complain (aka Cactroll).

 

[Twinkles]

It's TWILIGHT you ****

 

[Divinokage]

Oh well I guess no one is willing to ask some questions for me. =P

 

[KrIsP!]

What's Divino? Everyone calls you Kage or The Warrior but...Divino? Unless this is a naruto thing.

 

[Bones0]

This is Divino:

The resemblance is quiet remarkable.

 

[Divinokage]

It's because I used to play a paladin in WoW and I thought the name Divine shadow was awesome. Shadow = Kage in japanese so i did a mix in between. I also had the name Shadow before I even started gaming for some reason at 3 years old, it just came to me before I even knew english.. and it also represents my childhood dreams which is why I try to live the warrior way right now. =)

 

[The Star King]

a college mathematics professor tells you that .9999... equals 1

a twelve year old tells you that .9999... is less than 1

who should you rationally believe?

...

a literary critic tells you that don quixote is the greatest book ever written

a teenage girl tells you that twilight is the greatest book ever written

who should you rationally believe?

...

Spoiler

you think you're not an idiot

cactuar thinks you're an idiot

...

Obviously you should believe the first opinion in all of your examples,

Spoiler

especially the third one,

but because of the information itself, not because of who's saying it. To make this more clear - in what you said, if you change it to:



"some random dude off the street tells you that .9999... equals 1

some random dude off the street tells you that .9999... is less than 1

who should you rationally believe?

...

some random dude off the street tells you that don quixote is the greatest book ever written

some random dude off the street tells you that twilight is the greatest book ever written

who should you rationally believe?"



I would pick the first in both cases anyways. So as you can see, the person saying it is irrelevant to my choice, so the fact that I would believe the college professor/literary critic in your scenarios does not support your argument at all. Truly awful examples. You can't honestly be this dumb.

 

[john!]

Obviously you should believe the first opinion in all of your examples,

Spoiler

especially the third one,

but because of the information itself, not because of who's saying it. To make this more clear - in what you said, if you change it to:



"some random dude off the street tells you that .9999... equals 1

some random dude off the street tells you that .9999... is less than 1

who should you rationally believe?

...

some random dude off the street tells you that don quixote is the greatest book ever written

some random dude off the street tells you that twilight is the greatest book ever written

who should you rationally believe?"



I would pick the first in both cases anyways. So as you can see, the person saying it is irrelevant to my choice, so the fact that I would believe the college professor/literary critic in your scenarios does not support your argument at all. Truly awful examples. You can't honestly be this dumb.

yeah but neither of those random dudes has any credentials

you're only picking the first ones because you already have personal beliefs on the subject, which should be irrelevant because i was using a generic "you" and not talking about YOU specifically. i guess i falsely assumed that you knew how a thought experiment worked...

if i tell you that black holes conserve incoming physical information, and stephen hawking tells you that they don't, and someone asks you whether black holes conserve incoming physical information, how are you going to answer?

 

[Divinokage]

Personally, I would only answer if I could. I would not base myself on others unless I actually knew how to do it myself if not it's just empty conjecture.

 

[john!]

Personally, I would only answer if I could. I would not base myself on others unless I actually knew how to do it myself if not it's just empty conjecture.

so you wouldn't be able to tell me if antarctica exists? or if atoms exist? or if the titanic was an actual ship that actually sunk?

 

[Divinokage]

I wouldn't care unless it was relevant for me or helpful along the way of my path. Knowing these types of things is absolutely useless. It's empty knowledge unless you can actually use it in someway.

 

[Gea]

Only knowing what you need to know at that moment isn't practical or smart, nor is having to set up scientific experiments to reprove common knowledge that may be taught and then built upon if the source is credible. You archive useful knowledge because not only is there a good chance it will be useful one day, but it gives you a better understanding of the world as a whole, which is practical and useful in all outlets of life.

If you don't know the thing in the first place, you may not even realize how knowing it would be useful. Think about SDI. It isn't practical in most cases to say "I'll SDI this on reaction" as a legit strategy, but understanding how SDI works will prepare you for that day you're having trouble with Fox's uair even if you never had previously.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Only knowing what you need to know at that moment isn't practical or smart, nor is having to set up scientific experiments to reprove common knowledge that may be taught and then built upon if the source is credible. You archive useful knowledge because not only is there a good chance it will be useful one day, but it gives you a better understanding of the world as a whole, which is practical and useful in all outlets of life.

If you don't know the thing in the first place, you may not even realize how knowing it would be useful. Think about SDI. It isn't practical in most cases to say "I'll SDI this on reaction" as a legit strategy, but understanding how SDI works will prepare you for that day you're having trouble with Fox's uair even if you never had previously.

But, I SDI all the time.....

 

[JPOBS]

I wouldn't care unless it was relevant for me or helpful along the way of my path. Knowing these types of things is absolutely useless. It's empty knowledge unless you can actually use it in someway.

Pretty ignorant thing to say IMO.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't care unless it was relevant for me or helpful along the way of my path. Knowing these types of things is absolutely useless. It's empty knowledge unless you can actually use it in someway.

You would've died a million times over in the Harry Potter universe.

Hermione: "Devil's Snare, Devil's Snare...what did Professor Sprout say? - it likes the dark and damp"
Harry: "Then light a fire!"
*stuff happens*
"Lucky you pay attention in Herbology, Hermione."

GEEZ.

 

[odinNJ]

knowledge always has a use. It doesnt matter if there is no direct applicatoin for certain knowledge, but every piece of knowledge is useful in constructing a more logical world view, which leads to more intellegent living

 

[Theftz22]

The fact that a qualified expert tells you something within their area of expertise does count as some evidence towards that proposition, given that if the proposition were true you would expect him to say that, and if it were false you would not. An expert in the area has probably studied the issues and that gives some reason to think that he's right. Of course how heavily weighted this evidence is depends on various factors. For example you could discover he's regarded as a crank within the field, hasn't studied that particular topic much, or isn't too confident in his own opinion. And of course the evidence could always be outweighed by independent evidence on the other side. This is why it is a fallacy to use arguments from authority strictly deductively, because the authority in no way guarantees the truth of the proposition. However, inductively the word of authority does count as some evidence for a proposition, the degree of which can be questioned.

Anyway John's second example is bad just because all propositions of the form "x is the greatest book ever written" have no truth value because they are subjective. So the fact that an authority tells you that something is the greatest book ever written obviously doesn't give you any reason to believe that he is right.

 

[Divinokage]

Only knowing what you need to know at that moment isn't practical or smart, nor is having to set up scientific experiments to reprove common knowledge that may be taught and then built upon if the source is credible. You archive useful knowledge because not only is there a good chance it will be useful one day, but it gives you a better understanding of the world as a whole, which is practical and useful in all outlets of life.

If you don't know the thing in the first place, you may not even realize how knowing it would be useful. Think about SDI. It isn't practical in most cases to say "I'll SDI this on reaction" as a legit strategy, but understanding how SDI works will prepare you for that day you're having trouble with Fox's uair even if you never had previously.

Yes but that's because it's useful in the sense that if you want to be really really good at smash then you need to know everything and then you can use every tool to your advantage. Why the hell would I need to know for example Dante can do combos in MvC 3, it's completely out of the way of what im doing right now and it will very very likely be useless information for the future because I wont play the game. Why the hell do people feel the need to fill their heads with knowledge when 99% of the stuff you learn won't be used at all. I would look how I can improve myself and look towards the inside rather than learning BS and then in the end not accomplishing much at all.

Pretty ignorant thing to say IMO.

Ya, well, IMO... Saying someone is ignorant is most likely also an ignorant thing to say.

You would've died a million times over in the Harry Potter universe.

GEEZ.

Ya right, because I know that I would need to know magic to survive in that universe, and ill definitely be an elite magic user if I was actually a mage just like im a strong warrior. My ability can reflect in anything I do.

Odin, you may be also very wrong about that, how do you know all the information you learn from the outside is the truth. Can you really trust the TV, books, newspaper? There's a lot of crazy information, you may just end up in a spiral of ignorance just because you think you learned a lot but in the end it doesn't matter.

 

[Van.]

bones0 is right about fox falcon being even

alright well not really but

any matchup where you can kill them off one read at 40 can't be THAT bad

 

[tarheeljks]

any matchup where you can kill them off one read at 40 can't be THAT bad

this is rather reductive

 

[R3N0]

Spacies are popular because they have the most options and they're cool. They can play superficially non-gay styles effectively and have a reputation for being able to do whatever they want, basically. The badboy top level player also uses him and everyone wants to be Mango to some degree. From a "I want to switch to space animal and I'm a competitive player" standpoint, they have the option fluidity to transition cleanly and effectively so they have the best combat mixups and a really unique first hit game. They also have the control tools to set the pace of the match, so you can play to your comfort zone (defensive characters just respond to and adjust to the offensive player so they're rarely in control of the tempo). In short, spacies are fun. They **** people fast and people like to do that.

Regarding the second bit... there were Sheiks. But most of the decent ones quit or semi-retired (Tec0, Tope, Lucien, Drephen, Reno, etc) and the remaining ones are just up & comers who haven't quite broken out yet (Tafo, SilentSwag, ZoSo, JoeJoe, etc).

In North America, since like over half our entire character base quit for the real world, it's really just me and M2K right now at the top, and then a huge skill gap to the mid level ones (no offense). We don't have much of a gradation anymore. That said, there's some potential in Europe. I feel Ice, Amsah (but he's not going to APEX 2013 sigh), and Overtriforce are solid and might be the support we need to break out as a top tier character again (Sheik's gonna do well at APEX 2013 IMO).

I've been trying to practice as of late, if you're going to ROM, I hope to see you there <3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh my god Reno <3

Man, it's like there's a reason to jeopardize school for videogames... again...

 

[Bones0]

Why the hell would I need to know for example Dante can do combos in MvC 3, it's completely out of the way of what im doing right now and it will very very likely be useless information for the future because I wont play the game. Why the hell do people feel the need to fill their heads with knowledge when 99% of the stuff you learn won't be used at all. I would look how I can improve myself and look towards the inside rather than learning BS and then in the end not accomplishing much at all.

Maybe if you understood how Dante combos in MvC it would give you an idea for innovation in Melee. Maybe his combos are a direct results of a certain type of defensive or aggressive play that can be noticed in all humans, but is particularly easy to see in MvC because he capitalizes on it so well. This niche of human behavior could be affecting all of your matches in Melee, and you might not even know it because Melee's engine might not make the advantage gained as obvious.

Obviously there are some things I don't bother learning myself, but it's not because they are useless, but rather because I am trying to maximize the knowledge I gain from any one source and I only have a limited amount of time to do so. The part about introspection being more valuable I will agree with, but surely you are better equipped to be introspective when you have a greater understanding of the world. General knowledge all contributes to how you can view the world, including yourself. If you ever find yourself learning new facts and not changing your opinion, I would say that is a problem. You can accomplish a lot by absorbing facts from as many different resources as possible as well as focusing heavily on a single source. There is no right or wrong answer here. Deciding what information to focus on is one of the most abstract skills someone can have. If you pay attention to the people you see throughout the day, just try and get a mental grasp on what their base of knowledge is. Did they grow up focusing heavily on a single subject in school, or did they branch out to many subjects? I would say our society is very encouraging of specialization because the way corporations are formed with the most difficult jobs earning more money, it's more valuable to be really good at one thing than mediocre at everything. That being said, someone who focuses 100% on something probably won't understand it as well as someone who focuses on it 70% of their time and uses the remaining 30% to focus on other things. That other 30% gives them invaluable perspective and can easily help them push further into their primary field.

When viewing knowledge in this fashion, it is also important to realize that learning knowledge on a subject is much like improving at a game. It is EXTREMELY easy to learn/improve on something new because there is so much. As you learn or improve more, there is less "stuff" left to be addressed, and thus your progress inevitably slows down. No one can maintain the same level of improvement throughout their entire time playing a game. So if that's the case, then when you're stuck at 70% Melee knowledge, it can be worthwhile to take a break, get 30% knowledge of a different game or subject in a VERY short amount of time, and then return to Melee with a different perspective on life, and hopefully, the game.

 

[Purpletuce]

I hate when people compare smash to games I don't play. Rather, even games I have played. There is such an extreme change in environment from any one game to another, it isn't even worth mentioning IMO. . . :\

 

[Divinokage]

Bones, you still need a direction how to focus your wisdom on what you learned. Learning stuff in fighting games doesn't help me for anything.. it's the life of the tournament which made me a much stronger person which I can then use for other things I want to do. If you can really translate what you learn from another fighting game to melee then you wont even be playing Melee anymore, you'd hax the **** out of it lol. The physics themselves dont help you at all, it's your own mindset that changes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

i always thought I was pretty introspective

why dont i have magic powers yet

 

[Divinokage]

Because you dont practice hard enough.

 

[Bones0]

Bones, you still need a direction how to focus your wisdom on what you learned. Learning stuff in fighting games doesn't help me for anything.. it's the life of the tournament which made me a much stronger person which I can then use for other things I want to do. If you can really translate what you learn from another fighting game to melee then you wont even be playing Melee anymore, you'd hax the **** out of it lol. The physics themselves dont help you at all, it's your own mindset that changes.

I said in my post that you should still have direction. I was just saying you can't be so averse to acquiring knowledge not directly related to Melee because it will hurt your improvement in the long run. Just because I apply general principles from other games and life experiences doesn't mean I'm no longer playing Melee. Your last sentence basically sums up the goal of learning unrelated knowledge: to mature your mindset. Someone's mindset is going to evolve much faster and further if they have experienced many different things than someone who focuses linearly on a single subject. It's the difference between knowing facts and wisdom.