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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I'm referring mainly to the way PP has pushed the character further, and kind of in a direction that Falco hadn't really been going in before, really really quickly. For example, no Falco prior to PP really lasered in the important ways that he did/does. Though you're right, Falco has always been here, I just don't think he was a force until recently. Otherwise, this Falco over Fox discussion would've been going on a looooong time ago.

@KK: Those are all really salient points, actually. I think I was assuming that if Falco wants to control the stage, he has to have a laser there, but he really only needs to shoot them where he doesn't want you to be.
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
I agree that PP has played in a style that has pushed the character to new heights.

What I think is interesting is that when Shiz/bombsoilder/forward were doing their thing, everyone wanted to play like shiz.

I don't really see any falco's playing like PP despite being uber successful. strange
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
"If Marth randomly utilts vs. Falco, he can't just run in and hit him because he's too slow. He can laser and work off of it indirectly, but that's about it. Most of the other top tiers can take that same opening and get a free grab or launcher (like Sheik's and Peach's dash attacks)."

if you can't punish uptilt then the problem is that you are BAD.

20 frames of lag and you are complaining that your char isn't fast enough to have a guaranteed punish. you should be in range to punish to begin with instead of running around like a pansy with your lasers knowing that you can play super safe until the marth makes a mistake dealing with them.

Falcon should be the one complaining about marth's uptilt, not falco. It is a poor move to use randomly on grounded opponents, but at least falcon has mediocre punishes at low percent (techchase).

Falco played properly should run in there and combo marth for 30% plus pressure with around a 50% chance of doing another 30-death afterwards. as if this is even a valid strat...can you even show one top level player attempting to implement this in even one match..the only time we even risk this move against falco is when people are being overaggressive near the ledge..and even so, we could have done the same thing with a dash forward and grab to catch falco before his jump if we thought he was coming in.

falco's slowness might have some relevance if you don't use lasers, but marth's uptilt is the worst example of something that falco suffers from. it's not hard, pin marth and bair/dair him when he tries to escape the pin.

so his overshot aerial is slower (weaker) than foxes and needs the opponent to be closer, so what? you can afford to be closer when you're able to place your opponent in shield or light lag so much of the time. your bair also pins a million times better than foxes because it autocancels meaning that you have options when you miss as opposed to fox who just dies when marth runs in and grabs him.

falco is more than fast enough as long as you remember he has a gun. i would far rather be a char with a good gun and combo game that can hit players for half their life when you read their OOS option as opposed to fox who has to play perfectly while guessing the movements of some dash dance with marth having multiple approach angles and dodge capability at every moment.
 
Stevo

Stevo

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
2,476
Location
150km north of nowhere, Canada
S: Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jigglypuff
A: Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers
B: Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Samus, Pikachu
C: Luigi, Mario, Young Link, DK
D: Yoshi, Roy, Link, Zelda
E: Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu
F: Ness, Kirby, Bowser


Reasoning:

Falco wins tournaments and has the best matchups

Luigi, Mario, and Young Link can do some legit stuff.

Link is bad. At least Roy has grabs.

Even if you don't believe in Yoshi's potential, there are still a lot worse characters imo.

I think Pichu's movement allows you to pretend to almost be a real character.


Edit: oh right DK
 
outofphase

outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
Location
cleveland
KirbyKaze said:
@ phase

1. Taking Falco's laser out of a character evaluation is dumb if you're using it as a serious point. It's like stating you're going to evaluate Peach's potential without float as if it reflects something about her placement with the float, and then claiming her character is mid tier. No kidding these characters get a lot worse - if you remove a pivotal part of any good character they're obviously going to suck in varying degrees. And yeah, Falco without laser is an average character but the laser allows him to limit the opponent's mobility and thus make his mediocre mobility sufficient and even superior at times (barring powershielding and other nonsense, although even that can be worked around to some degree). Lasers do numerous other things, but that's enough for this post.

2. We already know Fox is the best character and that the ruleset is the major factor in deciding whether he's the best character or not (since Fox, in SSBM at its most basic level with all stages and crap is very obviously far and away the best character - to such a degree that half of the banned stuff is banned specifically because of him). This is 2002 stuff.
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lol well im sort of a 2002 player in theory as of yet. i say it because falco seems very predictable in neutral(could just be the players ive watched) once you get past his laser game. he has strong options, but they seem too obvious. clever movement or a nice powershield or two can shut down lasers in a single confrontation, pushing them into a situation where 1 read can easily mean death. dont get me wrong, lasers do win over the course of a match if used properly, but i guess what im saying is if you can effectively maintain control he is great, but if you lose it for even a second the momentum can very quickly be reversed and he becomes somewhat predictable. not trying to say im right/know more cuz i obviously dont but i like to have my thoughts too haha. i like being told where the holes in my theories are as well.

on a different note, we need a new tier list pretty badly. im interested to see how some of the top players' lists would look right now
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
outofphase said:
lol well im sort of a 2002 player in theory as of yet. i say it because falco seems very predictable in neutral(could just be the players ive watched) once you get past his laser game. he has strong options, but they seem too obvious. clever movement or a nice powershield or two can shut down lasers in a single confrontation, pushing them into a situation where 1 read can easily mean death. dont get me wrong, lasers do win over the course of a match if used properly, but i guess what im saying is if you can effectively maintain control he is great, but if you lose it for even a second the momentum can very quickly be reversed and he becomes somewhat predictable. not trying to say im right/know more cuz i obviously dont but i like to have my thoughts too haha. i like being told where the holes in my theories are as well.
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I have heard these arguments before and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them but bear in mind your outline suggests

1) You perform a PS in the range where it's relevant

2) If you're not in a range where it's relevant, you use that PS to get to that position (and return to step 1)

3) You counter what Falco does after he's been disrupted

4) Dial-a-combo

My issue is that this model largely neglects what Falco can do to circumvent obvious PS bids (jump over the laser, or shield it to reduce stun [useful at some ranges], etc) and once you've done the first step you then need to legitimately outplay him unless you dash PS grabbed him or something fairly specific like that

I feel it's just an oversimplification and in practice Falco can handle this better than it looks like. Again, I want to see a player who can actually do this. Ice couldn't even though his PS consistency was solid. Step 3 seems to be the hard part.

Mercifully, step 4 is easy as balls.

Movement can substitute PS for an easier step 1 and 2, but the drawback is you forfeit position and he doesn't get as openly disrupted so you probably wind up with a harder step 3, which is usually where things go wrong anyway.
 
outofphase

outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
Location
cleveland
ya i see what you mean, thats a good way of breaking it down. i guess i sorta forgot this is a discussion of top level play, my bad haha wont happen again. id like to see what people think about the untapped potential of falcos laser game. PP seems to have developed a well constructed laser game, but other falcos dont seem so calculated. mango seems to think they suck lol. if falcos were to start developing in-depth laser games, could he go to #1? i feel like fox's potential will keep him there for now, but if all the falcos popping up started working together made lasers a focus of metagame development i think he could become overwhelmingly considered the best.

@ kk - i really respect most of your opinions. you do alot of good for this game simply with your posts. i didnt mean to seem confrontational if it came off that way. thanks for entertaining my ideas even though im a noob lol
 
choknater

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
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Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
mathos and chops had nice lasers

zhu still has really nice lasers

falcos put in dat work

mango doesn't think lasers suck, he just keeps going in and prefers kicking moves
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
outofphase said:
ya i see what you mean, thats a good way of breaking it down. i guess i sorta forgot this is a discussion of top level play, my bad haha wont happen again. id like to see what people think about the untapped potential of falcos laser game. PP seems to have developed a well constructed laser game, but other falcos dont seem so calculated. mango seems to think they suck lol. if falcos were to start developing in-depth laser games, could he go to #1? i feel like fox's potential will keep him there for now, but if all the falcos popping up started working together made lasers a focus of metagame development i think he could become overwhelmingly considered the best.

@ kk - i really respect most of your opinions. you do alot of good for this game simply with your posts. i didnt mean to seem confrontational if it came off that way. thanks for entertaining my ideas even though im a noob lol
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I have no problems with you challenging my ideas so long as you are respectful and present yourself well. You didn't seem confrontational; you just had ideas that many others have had. They're not even bad ideas... I just wanted to flesh them out and voice my concerns with them.

Not sure where lasers are headed. Don't care if you're a noob so long as you're not Bones.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
new players are cool because they ask players that forum lurkers may also have. as long as you're deemed to be rational and don't spread ignorance/misinformation, you will do well here.
 
Ripple

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
then you should have put IMO. instead of stating it like a fact
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Bones0 said:
That's just your opinion! You should have put "IMO" just in case someone mistakes what you say as an absolute truth sent down from the heavens.
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it is a collective opinion that the things you state are often factually incorrect.

IOO
 
Purpletuce

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
1,316
Location
Corvallis, OR
I don't think Bones0 is irrational, and I love reading his ideas.

I don't agree with everything Bones posts, but they're almost always interesting, and a new perspective to consider.

Unless you're posting frame data, events or something similar, you're constantly posting opinions, and most of the time you can assume you are reading someone's opinion, the only question is if you should agree with that opinion. If you see someone posting about something better than something else, it is probably an opinion. If I say Falco >Fox, that is my opinion, and you(the reader) are the one who I would expect to understand that, I'm not going to put "IMO" after everything I can't definitively prove, and nobody should.
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
purpletuce said:
i don't think bones0 is irrational, and i love reading his ideas.

I don't agree with everything bones posts, but they're almost always interesting, and a new perspective to consider.

Unless you're posting frame data, events or something similar, you're constantly posting opinions, and most of the time you can assume you are reading someone's opinion, the only question is if you should agree with that opinion. If you see someone posting about something better than something else, it is probably an opinion. If i say falco >fox, that is my opinion, and you(the reader) are the one who i would expect to understand that, i'm not going to put "imo" after everything i can't definitively prove, and nobody should.
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^ 5
 
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