- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
the tier list is not based on match-ups, but if you want to go that route, Falco loses to nobody and beats Fox, while Fox loses to nobody other than Falco.
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
BS is saying BS as usual.. scrubs will be scrubs.
Rickety
Peace and Love
Sappy
Pay no attention to me, I'm a silly nobody,
but I just wanted to state the obvious and say that
KirbyKaze and Strong Bad create such consistently excellent posts,
it's just so heartwarming. The wit, the wisdom, ack! Too wonderful for words. <3
Pay no attention to me, I'm a silly nobody,
but I just wanted to state the obvious and say that
KirbyKaze and Strong Bad create such consistently excellent posts,
it's just so heartwarming. The wit, the wisdom, ack! Too wonderful for words. <3
Okay, back to creepy post-stalking for me! <3
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Relative to the top echelon, do you honestly disagree?
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
not even going to say anything.
just wait until apex. i hope they both come again.
just wait until apex. i hope they both come again.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Come Apex I might go back and compile a volume of posts called The Unshakable Truths of Blistering Speed and see how many of them hold up so we can once and for all decide if he/she/it's a prophetic genius or a blithering blowhard.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Lol, fox never wins anything major, and historically, he has never dominated either.
Fox isn't some super dominant force in the tournament scene, it just seems that way cuz there are a lot of them (he's arguably the most fun character).
But along with being popular, the cost is that anti-fox metagame is probably the most developed aspect of melee, for all characters.
Fox gets handled lol.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well I agreed with his post. Ice has never lived up to his hype, and as far as I know, he has only been less active in his practice since last Apex. I heard Over has increased his Melee time, but I still doubt he will get much farther than other non-Armada Europeans. Idk what to predict for Leffen. Part of me thinks he will catch a lot of people off guard and get top 16, and then the other part of me thinks he will choke and not make it out of pools.
leffen
Smash Champion
considering how i placed 17th at genesis 2 i dont think i'd really be catching people off guard if I placed top 16...
im ****ing gonna ****, you guys have no idea.
im ****ing gonna ****, you guys have no idea.
Lovage
Smash Hero
the only one who posts about leffen is leffen
leffen
Smash Champion
yes bones did clearly not mention me.
neither did anyone in the apex prediction thread
yup.
neither did anyone in the apex prediction thread
yup.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I hate how true this quote is.
For the sake of curiosity, would anyone like to entertain a challenge: can you summarize the upper level tourney play of the top tier in a sentence or two? Like. . . how they work and what they do. From what I've heard and experienced I like to think:
Falco is the smart character with stage control and neutral game. Fox is a very technical character that is hard to control but can overwhelm the opponent. Puff is the best at edgeguarding and forces the opponent to play carefully with Puff's mix of amazing spacing and ability to Rest. Sheik, I don't understand. Sheik seems to control ground and increase positioning and gives herself advantages in her movement. Marth controls the areas around himself with his large hitboxes and can trap opponents in his range, and tries to keep them at the edge of spacing. Falcon tries to out maneuver his opponent and maximize what he gets from hits, while minimizing his own damage. Peach I don't really understand, but I've heard her trades give her consistency.
To some people this might sound dumb, oh well. I just never really hear the general aspects of characters discussed too much, probably because they're often assumed, and can take a back seat to character MUs.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'll never understand people calling Falco's neutral game good. As far as I'm considered, he's absolute trash in neutral, and the bandaid that is lasers (albeit a pretty huge bandaid) is the only reason he is ever able to approach.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i agree that falco is the best.
i gave the PM people more **** than anyone about sheik's downthrow.
bones, you're bad. free stage control everywhere forever into unblockable frame 1 invincible launcher is completely ridiculous. at best i could see mvc2 storm or ggxx eddie as comparable in terms of ability, but in smash there is no comparison.
i gave the PM people more **** than anyone about sheik's downthrow.
bones, you're bad. free stage control everywhere forever into unblockable frame 1 invincible launcher is completely ridiculous. at best i could see mvc2 storm or ggxx eddie as comparable in terms of ability, but in smash there is no comparison.
outofphase
Smash Apprentice
i agree falco is the best character, but i also dont see his neutral game as the reason like others do. falco has a pretty average neutral game apart from lasers. obviously his lasers take it to top tier, but they dont make him better than fox on their own. he also gets gimped easily and has a basically MU vs. marth whereas fox i feel only goes even with falco. i feel falco is a more balanced character, and the current stage list fleshes out his strengths more than fox's. imo fox is a better character overall, its the ruleset that makes falco #1
Gea
Smash Master
Even if you don't think his neutral game is the best, how can you deny that it is good? Solid grab, shine, solid jab, laser, decent priority.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,559
choknater
Smash Obsessed
why would you even talk about falco's neutral game without the laser
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ phase
1. Taking Falco's laser out of a character evaluation is dumb if you're using it as a serious point. It's like stating you're going to evaluate Peach's potential without float as if it reflects something about her placement with the float, and then claiming her character is mid tier. No kidding these characters get a lot worse - if you remove a pivotal part of any good character they're obviously going to suck in varying degrees. And yeah, Falco without laser is an average character but the laser allows him to limit the opponent's mobility and thus make his mediocre mobility sufficient and even superior at times (barring powershielding and other nonsense, although even that can be worked around to some degree). Lasers do numerous other things, but that's enough for this post.
2. We already know Fox is the best character and that the ruleset is the major factor in deciding whether he's the best character or not (since Fox, in SSBM at its most basic level with all stages and crap is very obviously far and away the best character - to such a degree that half of the banned stuff is banned specifically because of him). This is 2002 stuff.
1. Taking Falco's laser out of a character evaluation is dumb if you're using it as a serious point. It's like stating you're going to evaluate Peach's potential without float as if it reflects something about her placement with the float, and then claiming her character is mid tier. No kidding these characters get a lot worse - if you remove a pivotal part of any good character they're obviously going to suck in varying degrees. And yeah, Falco without laser is an average character but the laser allows him to limit the opponent's mobility and thus make his mediocre mobility sufficient and even superior at times (barring powershielding and other nonsense, although even that can be worked around to some degree). Lasers do numerous other things, but that's enough for this post.
2. We already know Fox is the best character and that the ruleset is the major factor in deciding whether he's the best character or not (since Fox, in SSBM at its most basic level with all stages and crap is very obviously far and away the best character - to such a degree that half of the banned stuff is banned specifically because of him). This is 2002 stuff.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I would love to be proven wrong, Melee's uppermost metagame hasn't surprised me in the slightest in recent years. You say prophecy, I say stagnant predictability.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ok but why should we care about surprising you or not?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
This sounds like fun and I love oversimplifying things in general.
Sheik - She likes to grab and then you die. Her limbs beat most other limbs and sometimes combo to death or high damage. The ease of which you can hit her for recovering is probably the easiest thing to prey on against her with most characters.
Fox - He outmaneuvers his opponents and lands a bazillion first hits with his fast attacks and fluid transitions between options. Combos are prone to fizzling but he can play around it to some degree. He feels invincible when he's got his "groove" but then he gets nicked or grabbed by anyone and he's suddenly clutching his heart.
Falco - He controls the horizontal plane and has really consistent damage output with his combos. His mixup off shine is stronger because it launches and his throws are wonky but can he can follow up on them. He's very effective when he's in control and he spends most of the match in the driver's seat but he has the same weakness Fox has in that being grabbed or nicked by something can be a stock loss.
Peach - Her shield is ******** and she's good vs shield. Her speed is a problem - she can't rush people down so she has to use items to control areas and her float to sort of box people in. Low speed also increases her dependency on shield and attacks for protection, rather than movement. Good recovery relative to the other top characters but she can be edgeguarded effectively if she's missing her float (and/or DJ on occasion).
Marth - He has really good combos (especially from throw) but aside from his stuff vs FFers none of his stuff is a guaranteed stun lock combo so there's a lot of improv. He's the best footsie character but that's basically all he can do. He's got problems when he loses his footing so try not to.
Jigglypuff - Gay.
Best way to end it
Bones0
Smash Legend
Free stage control everywhere forever = if they give you enough room to commit to a SH, you are able to laser. It will only cover the horizontal plane, and you are too slow to avoid their counterattack if it doesn't get in their way. If they shield it they can move OoS easily, and if they get hit you still can't approach from a few feet away because it has no stun, and the only way you will actually combo is if you land on top of them (which is basically the equivalent of SHFFLing at them anyways, except that it covers backwards retreats). Don't get me wrong, lasers are great. Like I said, it takes Falco's neutral game from ***-tier to damn good tier, but I'd much rather be able to move like any of the other top tiers except maybe Sheik than have lasers (this is keeping in mind Puff's aerial mobility and Peach's float).
I get the sense that you're just not good at dealing with lasers. No offense of course, since very few people are (myself included).
And just as a disclaimer, this isn't taking powershielding into consideration at all. I think PSing can be a reliable tactic to use occasionally, but anyone who thinks it "fixes" the problem of lasers is an idiot.
Damn bro, you're right. I forgot how ridiculously useful Falco's grab, shine, and jab are in neutral... WAIT...
phish-it
Smash Champion
If Falco's neutral game isn't good, please enlighten us on who's neutral game actually is.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I can PS really well but it only beats bad falcos.
you're basically saying that falco's neutral game isn't perfect because sometimes they can interact with you if you're not perfect and they have a read on you and you commit when you don't need to.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
New series of kk oversimplifying things? Very entertaining...
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think DK's neutral game is actually really underrated. His fair goes really far. I also think SH forward-B has some potential to force early knockdowns.
I'm saying that Falco is too slow to capitalize on most spacing mistakes and laser hits that other top tiers eat for breakfast. If Marth randomly utilts vs. Falco, he can't just run in and hit him because he's too slow. He can laser and work off of it indirectly, but that's about it. Most of the other top tiers can take that same opening and get a free grab or launcher (like Sheik's and Peach's dash attacks). Luckily for Falco, once he manages to trap the opponent enough to get a first hit, he typically punishes harder than the rest of the cast, and does it on a more consistent basis. He also has great pressure abilities when he's on the offensive because if his opponents do not have the options to abuse speed, he can control them that much better.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
DK's fair comes out on like frame 65. Side B is like 40. Too slow to be practical most of the time IMHO. They also aren't particularly good as far as priority goes AFAIK so you're probably gonna lose a lot of move clashes due to speed, the attack's inherently bad hitboxes, or both. I would endorse SH RGPS bair before either of those but even that doesn't work because it has an enormous startup time...
Anyway, DK's neutral game is garbage IMO aside from being fat (empowers crouch grab) and having a decent dash dance and grab range. His normals are mediocre at best and bad on an average day. His specials are similarly crappy aside from Giant Punch and Up+B (which is admittedly kind of useful and a solid move when it comes up). So let's look at his air game. DK's options in the air suck aside from bair (and punch if it's charged even somewhat) because everything else is either slow or has no hitbox at all. And even bair (his best poke, aerial, and one of his primary combo starters) has glaring limitations because he has no real sophisticated mixup when he SHs (and FJing with DK as a real strat is lol). Upon SHing, his option tree goes in two directions: he can attack or he can DJ. But he can't attack > DJ or anything like that so as long as you're out of range of his main poke (which has limited utility 'cuz you have to be backwards to do it and therefore he can't dash into it with momentum like a nair or w/e) and he doesn't have a punch charged then you have little to worry about - he can't really mount an offense against you. And from there good dash dance characters pick him apart (Falcon, Fox, Marth).
Falco nullifies DK's whole character by jumping and pushing B. Sheik can death touch him. Oddly, I feel she exploits some of his weaknesses the least effectively of the top tiers (aside from Peach and Puff) but she also death touches him really easily (I think she can CG him at 36%+ or something?) and does everything he does better and has needle > grab > plausible death so I mean she's still a **** MU and the amount of mistakes DK is allowed is horrific so she might be harder than the dash dancers just off that.
Anyway, DK's neutral game is garbage IMO aside from being fat (empowers crouch grab) and having a decent dash dance and grab range. His normals are mediocre at best and bad on an average day. His specials are similarly crappy aside from Giant Punch and Up+B (which is admittedly kind of useful and a solid move when it comes up). So let's look at his air game. DK's options in the air suck aside from bair (and punch if it's charged even somewhat) because everything else is either slow or has no hitbox at all. And even bair (his best poke, aerial, and one of his primary combo starters) has glaring limitations because he has no real sophisticated mixup when he SHs (and FJing with DK as a real strat is lol). Upon SHing, his option tree goes in two directions: he can attack or he can DJ. But he can't attack > DJ or anything like that so as long as you're out of range of his main poke (which has limited utility 'cuz you have to be backwards to do it and therefore he can't dash into it with momentum like a nair or w/e) and he doesn't have a punch charged then you have little to worry about - he can't really mount an offense against you. And from there good dash dance characters pick him apart (Falcon, Fox, Marth).
Falco nullifies DK's whole character by jumping and pushing B. Sheik can death touch him. Oddly, I feel she exploits some of his weaknesses the least effectively of the top tiers (aside from Peach and Puff) but she also death touches him really easily (I think she can CG him at 36%+ or something?) and does everything he does better and has needle > grab > plausible death so I mean she's still a **** MU and the amount of mistakes DK is allowed is horrific so she might be harder than the dash dancers just off that.
Bones0
Smash Legend
:stupidfox:
Boat Mode
Smash Journeyman
Kk i wish you didn't hate Falcon, you've been far and away the best poster lately and it shows in here/the character boards.
/Jelli
/Falcon bias
/Jelli
/Falcon bias
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I don't think I am capable of appreciating Captain Falcon as a character in this game. I just... bleh. Hate that character. Hate everything about him.
edit: I do appreciate the sentiment though. Thanks ^_^
edit: I do appreciate the sentiment though. Thanks ^_^
Gea
Smash Master
So you're saying his neutral game would be just as strong with say, Mario's grab/jab/down B? Because you are severely underestimating how much Falco can do relative to the cast as a whole. Hell, he can get away with way more empty jumps than Marth or Sheik can, and his DD game isn't the best, but it definitely isn't the worst. Praytell what a good neutral game to you is.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Mario's jab and grab mixups are soooooo much better than Falco's. I don't get your point.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I give up.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Somewhere along the line, I lost track of when Bones turned into a troll
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
For whatever it's worth, and that's probably nothing, I think most of the community just sucks at handling Falco's lasers, and him in general. He's only seen a huge metagame surge recently, and I guess we're bad at adapting to that? I mean sure, theoretically, his lasers give him infinite stage control, but I don't think he can actually control the entire stage safely, due to how FJ lasering works.
I'm also not anywhere near top level, so perhaps there's a piece of the puzzle that, in my noobiness, I'm missing.
I'm also not anywhere near top level, so perhaps there's a piece of the puzzle that, in my noobiness, I'm missing.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
He only needs to control the horizontal plane he's on, which will almost always be the floor since that's all he cares about.
When people jump they sacrifice their ability to block, crouch, WD back, dash away, etc. and that presents various vulnerabilities (unless you're Peach or Puff).
If they leave the horizontal plane he's on (the floor) for the platform then they've taken a defensively weaker position because of the laser's presence.
I'm not going further because it would take too long. But I assure you Falco's laser is good.
When people jump they sacrifice their ability to block, crouch, WD back, dash away, etc. and that presents various vulnerabilities (unless you're Peach or Puff).
If they leave the horizontal plane he's on (the floor) for the platform then they've taken a defensively weaker position because of the laser's presence.
I'm not going further because it would take too long. But I assure you Falco's laser is good.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
What makes you think Falco has only has a metagae surge "recently"?
There was bombsoilder ; there was forward; Shiz was getting top 5 for a long time ; PC was the east coast golden boy in the eras of Ken and M2k ;Zhu beat m2k before m2k became emo; mango has been playing falco since like 2008, thats 4 whole years ago.
I don't buy falco having a metagame surge "recently". There has always been a top 3-5 falco.