Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[john!]

spacies deserve their own tier, why is this up for debate? what other character has achieved anything close to their overall success?

 

[Strong Badam]

If Sheik is above Falco then she's the best character in the game.

 

[S l o X]

wrote a long message then i realized it was smashboards.

sheik is 3rd but still in the same tier as fox falco despite having 4 losing / even matchups. (falco has 0 losing matchups and fox has arguably one or two with small problems in the mid tier area) she just handles everyone extremely well.

 

[Bones0]

spacies deserve their own tier, why is this up for debate? what other character has achieved anything close to their overall success?

Spacies haven't had that much success when you take into account the player bases of each character...

 

[john!]

Spacies haven't had that much success when you take into account the player bases of each character...

so what's YOUR theory about why spacies are by far the most popular characters?

why are there much fewer sheik players?

 

[Gea]

Isn't the answer to that kind of obvious?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

People value winning very much.

 

[asianaussie]

sheik clearly has too high an execution barrier

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik has top tier poking and the easiest zero-to-deaths because her finishers are super duper brainless and unfairly effective. Her 'keep them in the combo in an awesome position' game is also stupid, probably a cross between Fox and Marth in terms of ability to range-**** people out of combo break attempts and KO power.

Her biggest weakness is honestly that f-tilt and dash attack don't knock over at 0% so her low percent game is constricted. This isn't a problem for the other top characters; spacies have shines (and other things, especially Falco). Peach has fair, dash attack, fair, d-smash, etc. Peach has an amazing low percent game. Puff is just a defensive poke character who doesn't want to press anyway unless she wins the MU and also has the air mobility to play around counterattacks (and has an OHKO at 15% so low percent can be dangerous for other reasons). Marth's grab range (supplemented by dash dance) and sword mix gives him the ability to play around crouches or not worry about not knocking people over since they can't counterattack anyway. Moves that pop up (Marth fair, Peach dash attack, etc) are also ideal because they can lead to things vs non-crouch whereas some of Sheik's moves don't lead to anything even if they don't crouch at super low percents.

That said, Sheik needs like one grab and this problem disappears entirely so it's not a big deal and the boost she gets for getting the opponent out of that percent zone is ridiculous.

I dunno maybe spacies are a tier better because shine is good but I think Sheik is the best of the top tiers vs Peach, has the best MU on Marth, is even with spacies, loses to Puff by a teensy bit, and is better vs herself than Peach & Marth. I think her MU spread is great and I feel her skill ceiling is higher than Marth's because needles, exploitable invulnerability, shield, etc. Marth is amazing at footsie and only footsie. Sheik can footsie but she can also run platforms, zone with needles, camp, etc. She's far more versatile IMO.

I'm gonna write something on the DJC mechanic and why it sucks to have it vs floaties, is okay vs everyone else, and why the jump gets annihilated by Battlefield and Dreamland's top platforms (and Marth's d-throw, and various other b-throws). If leffen, Vman, Vudu, or anyone else who uses the DJC low tiers want to give me some help it would be much appreciated. FWIW this is going to mostly be towards the SD Remix hackers and Project M hackers, since I feel a lot of the mechanics (and their implications and how they play out) are a little misunderstood by the people designing these mods. Oh and give Sheik her throw back; she doesn't deserve to be condemned to high tier at best just because most of the hackers played low tier in Melee. Just make her finishers less ridiculous so she can still RPS the shield-attack-grab system in a balanced way and so she becomes more reliant on edgeguarding to kill Maybe nerf some of her stun values so her combos require more finesse. Don't destroy an entire RPS model. People will learn how to DI the throws reactively; people sometimes can legitimately do it vs Melee Marth. Why would PM Sheik be different?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As a PAL Sheik secondary, her neutered dthrow is fine and doesn't wreck her RPS at all. Get better.

 

[Ripple]

not possible to change the jumps of the path jumpers in any way yet in SD remix

 

[Bones0]

so what's YOUR theory about why spacies are by far the most popular characters?

why are there much fewer sheik players?

Because they are fun as **** to play. That's why they've been popular (and consequently, overrated) since before people even used reflectors to attack.



Can't any camping vs. DJC characters be fixed simply by increasing their vertical acceleration?

 

[Ripple]

Can't any camping vs. DJC characters be fixed simply by increasing their vertical acceleration?

Path jumpers' second jumps are animation based and thus impossible to change so far.

changing vertical acceleration only changes their second jump with a screw attack item

 

[Bones0]

That was a reply to KK, my bad. Any chance you guys could make the DJC work like barlw's where you hold JUMP to avoid the cancel? I doubt it, but it'd be sick.

 

[KirbyKaze]

As a PAL Sheik secondary, her neutered dthrow is fine and doesn't wreck her RPS at all. Get better.

It's a problem at high percent.

See: Armada vs any PAL Sheik ever >.>

I get that there's a low percent game but I dislike how she's so nerfed. Also, edgecanceling out of her throw combos is SO EASY in PAL. I get that this changes the guessing games with u-smash and such but I don't see the need for it when she's not even the best character. Nerf Fox and Falco before you castrate Sheik >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Cause it's a nerf that gives her more depth. Up throw is actually useful in PAL, for example.

 

[Europhoria]

Fox's drill feels pretty crappy in PM to be fair. Falco however is still blue jesus

 

[Bones0]

Spacies get nerfed in P:M because now the entire cast can combo them to death instead of just half.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cause it's a nerf that gives her more depth. Up throw is actually useful in PAL, for example.

Up throw is still garbage, even in PAL. You guys are terrible at punishment minus Armada, leffen, Ice, and maybe Overtriforce when the opponent is offstage. If people are bad vs her u-throw in general over there then that's one thing but from an objective, move properties (move does this, can be beaten by this, etc) standpoint it's horrible. I use it in specific positionings but it's not a good move by any means. If she had a real u-throw I could accept this, but I just want ANY sort of reliable throw. Heck, if we're going to give Mario a hybrid fair so he has super optimized options out of d-throw, I think having a guaranteed throw > aerial isn't a huge request.

edit:

There is a HUGE amount of depth with her d-throw in NTSC. So many little nuances to it - to both surviving it (as the defending player) and maximizing damage (as Sheik). Illegitimate combos, consolidating damage, position emphasis, converting to an air combo vs keeping it a ground combo, etc. If anything I say PAL removed depth because your follows have to be ground moves (they go too far for aerials, and the distance restricts which ground moves you can even use) and there's an established best DI for like every situation because of how stark the differences in her trajectories are. There's basically no reason to DI it anywhere aside from away just because giving her a free auto-combo is almost assuredly worse than whatever tech chase you can force. Defensively and offensively it's super simplified. You're also super limited in what you can chase with (and her other throws suck so she has no fallback) whereas there are tons of habit games and such with her NTSC d-throw (see: nair > fair combo, or anything with FJ fair > falling whatever vs a floaty at low percent).

If she got an u-throw CG on the spacies I could accept this but she didn't so I just see a shell of her former self. Tech chasing is not as good as her combos because of how insane her range and anti-combo break game is. And where's Falco's big nerf? Or Puff's? =/

 

[Divinokage]

Well it's good to put people on platforms early which is pretty damn good for Sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

i know and play ness particularly well, i can help with the DJC thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well it's good to put people on platforms early which is pretty damn good for Sheik.

This can be worked for the most part; with the exception of one fairly specific positioning by the Sheik, you can avoid the plats (or even edgecancel >_>).

 

[ShroudedOne]

Whoa. Whoa.

You think Sheik does better against Peach than Fox? My world...it's crumbling! (read your post in the other thread, and I must say, it makes sense. )

Also, yeah, I like that Peach doesn't give two ****s about percent, ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not that it matters but when was the last time a good Peach beat a good Sheik? Genuinely curious.

 

[Strong Badam]

MacD beat Amsah at APEX.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh right. That happened, didn't it. Anything else? >_>

I feel in tournament Peach beats some mess of FFers, does okay vs Puff (aside from HBox), beats most Marths (ones that aren't PPU, Taj, or M2K), and some random characters. I feel they beat Ganons too (or at least Vwins and Armada do).

Oddly, I feel the top level ICs beat the bulk of Peaches except in weird cases like MacD vs Fly (and Armada hasn't played one in tourney yet so we can't count that). But yeah any IC other than Fly & Wobbles has a shot of losing to random Peach secondary, which is kind of lol. I have no idea what the hell happens with that MU. Is it actually not that bad once the IC gets a certain level of control? So perplexing.

Not to infer I think ICs Peach is like even or something. I just find it funny when match outcomes don't reflect the MU ratio in the slightest. I guess style and skill are important factors though and most 'tournament' Peaches are average players overall. Might be unfair to compare them to the elite ICs. But then again... bleh. Don't wanna get into it.

 

[Xyzz]

I think Wobbles once said, that he doesn't think the matchup is that bad, it just has an incredibly steep learning curve and the ICs player has to be super precise. (I really don't know, up to this point I've never faced an IC main in tourneys :x)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs/Peach DEFINITELY isn't that bad at top level.
It definitely IS at mid/high-level though, so...

 

[KirbyKaze]

So basically if you're Fly or Wobbles it's a 40-60 or 45-55 MU

If you're literally anyone else it's a 30-70 MU

Cool

I hate MUs like that

But that's largely how I feel about Sheik Puff (though to a lesser degree) so w/e

I feel Sheik loses solidly at mid level (40-60? Maybe 35-65?)

Then it gets better as her pilot uses her tools better since she's more versatile and has tons of depth

Puff just kind of does what she's always done and doesn't get much better

Sheik eventually draws it in close and it winds up being like 45-55 or so because Puff's limitations eventually bite her in the butt

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Because they are fun as **** to play. That's why they've been popular (and consequently, overrated) since before people even used reflectors to attack.

This, is very true

 

[KirbyKaze]

so what's YOUR theory about why spacies are by far the most popular characters?

why are there much fewer sheik players?

Spacies are popular because they have the most options and they're cool. They can play superficially non-gay styles effectively and have a reputation for being able to do whatever they want, basically. The badboy top level player also uses him and everyone wants to be Mango to some degree. From a "I want to switch to space animal and I'm a competitive player" standpoint, they have the option fluidity to transition cleanly and effectively so they have the best combat mixups and a really unique first hit game. They also have the control tools to set the pace of the match, so you can play to your comfort zone (defensive characters just respond to and adjust to the offensive player so they're rarely in control of the tempo). In short, spacies are fun. They **** people fast and people like to do that.

Regarding the second bit... there were Sheiks. But most of the decent ones quit or semi-retired (Tec0, Tope, Lucien, Drephen, Reno, etc) and the remaining ones are just up & comers who haven't quite broken out yet (Tafo, SilentSwag, ZoSo, JoeJoe, etc).

In North America, since like over half our entire character base quit for the real world, it's really just me and M2K right now at the top, and then a huge skill gap to the mid level ones (no offense). We don't have much of a gradation anymore. That said, there's some potential in Europe. I feel Ice, Amsah (but he's not going to APEX 2013 sigh), and Overtriforce are solid and might be the support we need to break out as a top tier character again (Sheik's gonna do well at APEX 2013 IMO).

 

[Blistering Speed]

(Sheik's gonna do well at APEX 2013 IMO).

Not to place too much of an onus, but I'd say you're literally the only higher level representation Sheik has for Apex. Overtriforce isn't that good, Ice is a shadow of his former self, Amsah isn't going (and is completely out of practice), and Mew2king's play has been entirely Brawl-centric for the majority of the year.

 

[Divinokage]

M2k can definitely own a lot of people for sure it's just that he doesn't use only Sheik.

 

[KirbyKaze]

M2k can definitely own a lot of people for sure it's just that he doesn't use only Sheik.

Meh, he uses her the most for the majority of his tournament runs. It counts.

He basically goes Fox vs Puff. As for his Marth, he only uses Marth vs Peach (sometimes), Foxes (and even then it seems stage dependent 'cuz he always goes Sheik on DL64 and usually on BF iirc), and Falcos on the rare occasion but it's usually Sheik.

60% of his run is with Sheik.

 

[Stevo]

@KK
I also disagree with the changes to sheik's throws in Project M.

Beyond all the great points you make, or are going to make, the whole point of keeping the melee high tiers in tact as much as possible was to promote the smooth transition of melee players to project M. There may not be as many sheik players as fox players, but all melee sheik players I know don't like the changes in Project M (not for lack of trying them out though) and have kind of stayed away from Project M. This goes from more casual players all the way to players like you and Mow.

I just don't get how it was a good decision, especially without at least trying NTSC sheik's down-throw out for a while in the public.

 

[past_b]

I'm just saying, I think that PP and/or mango would have similar tournament results with sheik as they do with the spacies had they chosen to go with sheik as a main rather than fox / falco. I think sheik is a devastating and underrated character.

To the person who claimed that fox has a more disadvantaged matchup chart than falco: no. Fox has roughly four or so better matchups than falco does.

SB, you seem to really dislike falco, but I suppose you are biased because you play DK. I can't even begin to justify your adamant claim that falco is the best character in the game.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

. Overtriforce isn't that good, Ice is a shadow of his former self,

loooooooooool you know it all

 

[Gea]

Spacies are popular because they have the most options and they're cool. They can play superficially non-gay styles effectively and have a reputation for being able to do whatever they want, basically. The badboy top level player also uses him and everyone wants to be Mango to some degree. From a "I want to switch to space animal and I'm a competitive player" standpoint, they have the option fluidity to transition cleanly and effectively so they have the best combat mixups and a really unique first hit game. They also have the control tools to set the pace of the match, so you can play to your comfort zone (defensive characters just respond to and adjust to the offensive player so they're rarely in control of the tempo). In short, spacies are fun. They **** people fast and people like to do that.

This. Sheik has far few players because you have to immediately overcome her strange dash and jump. Then she has certain moves that seem randomly ineffective (situational) that at first feel limiting to her moveset. How many new sheik players see any value in dair? Let alone moves like fsmash. Her recovery is more finnicky, she is missing a B move, etc. All this ontop of people often labeling her as a gay easy to use character because dthrow absolutely molests quite a few characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

SB, you seem to really dislike falco, but I suppose you are biased because you play DK. I can't even begin to justify your adamant claim that falco is the best character in the game.

over half of the MBR agrees with me that Falco is the best character in the game. pointing out that I use a character that's hard-countered by the best character in the game doesn't actually disprove that fact. you don't see me going around saying that sheik is better than fox just because sheik beats DK harder than Fox does, do you? cmon now

 

[past_b]

over half of the MBR agrees with me that Falco is the best character in the game. pointing out that I use a character that's hard-countered by the best character in the game doesn't actually disprove that fact. you don't see me going around saying that sheik is better than fox just because sheik beats DK harder than Fox does, do you? cmon now

fair enough. id like to hear from a couple of these mbr members as to why falco is better than fox. based on the matchup chart alone, fox is clearly superior, at least from what i think. fox is historically better against floaties and ic's. falco perhaps does better against himself and that's it. am i missing something?