The Star King
Smash Hero
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- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Shoutouts to ShroudedOne for bringing up ROM5 in the Tier List thread because he doesn't post anywhere else
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Xyzz
Smash Champion
'Tis a lie. He does post in the Peach boards as well, and I usually like them (over there, and here as well) 
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I apologize.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Apologize? This thread being off-topic is a good thing.
Because it will help bring life to the dying SSB64 community?
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
the 64 community is definitely not dying lol
S: Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff
A: Sheik
B: Marth, Peach
C: C. Falcon, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Samus
D: Ganondorf
E: Luigi, Mario
F: DK, Link, Young Link
G: Yoshi, Roy, Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch
H: Zelda, Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu
A: Sheik
B: Marth, Peach
C: C. Falcon, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Samus
D: Ganondorf
E: Luigi, Mario
F: DK, Link, Young Link
G: Yoshi, Roy, Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch
H: Zelda, Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik > Puff
But yeah w/e
But yeah w/e
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
so? she beats Sheik 6-4 imo and does much better vs spacies, Falco especially
probably the easiest of the 4 god tiers to be consistent with as well due to the lowest techskill requirement/least risk
not even sure if YL beats Jiggs. Armada told me that the matchup is close to 5-5 and the only reason he goes YL vs Hbox is so that he can play him on even ground
probably the easiest of the 4 god tiers to be consistent with as well due to the lowest techskill requirement/least risk
not even sure if YL beats Jiggs. Armada told me that the matchup is close to 5-5 and the only reason he goes YL vs Hbox is so that he can play him on even ground
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
sheik is 5-5 with spacies
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
I think that making a claim such as "YL beats Puff" is rather dramatic given the evidence so far.
I also think that KK is one of the most realistic people about their main, so I'm curious as to why he thinks Falco Sheik is even.
I also think that KK is one of the most realistic people about their main, so I'm curious as to why he thinks Falco Sheik is even.
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- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Falco doesn't beat Peach.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Falco can jump over many characters jabs, dash attacks, and shield grabs. Falco can't jump over any of peach's. This is a big reason why peach is so good vs him in many situations.
peach loses to shine-grab in situations where she is forced to shield
peach loses to shine-grab in situations where she is forced to shield
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Spacies might beat sheik like 52-48 or something but I'm generally of the impression that less than halfway gets rounded down.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
dear god I hate spacies
Bones0
Smash Legend
FACT: Fox and Falco do not win every matchup.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
FACT2: Fox and Falco do not lose any matchup.
FACT3: They couldn't win every matchup, since they can't both win against each other. (I agree that there are many draws in their matchup spread :D)
Beat!
Smash Master
@Bones
Not saying I disagree, but what makes you so sure it's "fact"?
Unless you're including dittos, in which case it would be one of the most pointless and obvious statements I've ever read.
Lol xyzz
Not saying I disagree, but what makes you so sure it's "fact"?
Unless you're including dittos, in which case it would be one of the most pointless and obvious statements I've ever read.
Lol xyzz
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
sheik does better vs fox than jiggs does vs fox
Bones0
Smash Legend
This is an opinion.
Yeah I think it is 5-5 and Hbox seems to agree with me (last time he said Y link dosen't win the MU at least but he maybe has changed his mind).
But it's still hard for me/Hbox/Hack (the ones with most experience of high level I think) because compared to other MUs this one have not been played that much.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
This is why we can't have nice things.
Bones0
Smash Legend
The only nice things you can expect from this topic are KK knowledge, Leffen rage, and spacie d-riding.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I enjoy any assortment of those things
Mahone
Smash Champion
1: Fox/Falco
2: Sheik, Marth
3: Jigglypuff
I think falco does better on average in most mus, but i put him tied with fox since fox is significantly better vs the 2 floaties, puff and peach
Sheik is 3rd because she has evenish mus with fox/falco, which i am weighting more than other mus since they are the top 2 characters, however she does lose to jiggs and ics, dominating the bottom half of the cast is nice however, and it gives her some points vs marth since we all know marth vs pikachu is 35-65 and sheik wrecks pika... but seriously i do think marth struggles with mid-tiers much more than sheik which counts for a little something
Marth also has evenish mus with fox/falco, and on fd he actually wins vs them, which is relevant with the current ruleset... i think hes a little better vs fox than sheik and a little worse vs falco than her... I still put him barely below sheik though because he loses the head to head with her pretty solidly
Jiggs is solidly 5th because she beats sheik and has a slight advantage vs falco, her mu with marth is evenish, atm going to her, but i do believe when marths start mastering pivoting it will sway in their favor since the main issue in the mu is marth not being able to kill her (like a lot of his mus), but i have seen one that can consistently pivot-tipper out of throws and it does make a huge difference... the reason i have to put her at 5th is because her mu with fox is pretty bad and i weigh that one much more heavily... also struggling with midtiers and lower such as ylink and doc is a negative
I would do the rest of the cast cuz i remember i wrote it all out once and it had some surprising stuff with solid reasoning, but im sure ill get enough **** for what i've written so far so go for it
2: Sheik, Marth
3: Jigglypuff
I think falco does better on average in most mus, but i put him tied with fox since fox is significantly better vs the 2 floaties, puff and peach
Sheik is 3rd because she has evenish mus with fox/falco, which i am weighting more than other mus since they are the top 2 characters, however she does lose to jiggs and ics, dominating the bottom half of the cast is nice however, and it gives her some points vs marth since we all know marth vs pikachu is 35-65 and sheik wrecks pika... but seriously i do think marth struggles with mid-tiers much more than sheik which counts for a little something
Marth also has evenish mus with fox/falco, and on fd he actually wins vs them, which is relevant with the current ruleset... i think hes a little better vs fox than sheik and a little worse vs falco than her... I still put him barely below sheik though because he loses the head to head with her pretty solidly
Jiggs is solidly 5th because she beats sheik and has a slight advantage vs falco, her mu with marth is evenish, atm going to her, but i do believe when marths start mastering pivoting it will sway in their favor since the main issue in the mu is marth not being able to kill her (like a lot of his mus), but i have seen one that can consistently pivot-tipper out of throws and it does make a huge difference... the reason i have to put her at 5th is because her mu with fox is pretty bad and i weigh that one much more heavily... also struggling with midtiers and lower such as ylink and doc is a negative
I would do the rest of the cast cuz i remember i wrote it all out once and it had some surprising stuff with solid reasoning, but im sure ill get enough **** for what i've written so far so go for it
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
you'll be mad after you get death comboed every stockMe playing spacies (and falcon) vs DK:
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Nah, give the haters time to poop on him first.
Mahone are the numbers your tier divisions? If so do you really think the gap between Marth and Puff is big enough to place Puff into what our conventional naming system would consider the B Tier, and that Peach and Falcon are also worse enough than Marth to be considered a whole tier below them if not more? I'm interested in that.
I like your listed reasons for your placings and find them all agreeable (though I'd possibly put Falco over Fox despite the floaties since I think Falco does better versus Fox and Falco and I think those MUs matter more) except your assertion that Puff beats Falco. Wanna talk about that? Weird MU imo.
Mahone
Smash Champion
aiight sure, ill work on it later
ya, i dont get the whole S, SS, SSJ4, etc. stuff, so i just number them lol
I do think the gap is "significant" enough, its not necessarily that they are that much better...
like i think all of the top 6/7 are 100% viable to consistently win a national and its not like if u play puff its over cuz ur not even in the top 2 tiers
my tiers are weird and subjective, but they make sense to me... my reasoning is as follows:
1 is the tier where u really don't have any BAD mus, at worse you have maybe a slightly evenish mu not in ur favor, but i think thats pretty different from...
2, where you have significant mu issues that might actually affect ur tournament placing, like sheik vs ics for example
3, like i said, puff would easily be in tier 2 if it wasn't for me weighing the fox mu so much... i think puff does fine vs falco/sheik/marth, possibly winning all three if i assume she beats marth, but fox kinda whoops her... i know everyone just sees hbox **** every fox but he is just godlike
puff falco is one of those weird mus where i think if the falco plays super perfect he wins, but i have to take into account human error even though the tier list is talking about top level... i always bring up the example of hbox vs pp where pp is at 10% and hbox is at 150% or some ****, then one pound-jab-reset-rest and BAM, instant loss...
in this way i find it similiar to marth sheik, the marths all say that if you play perfect its even, but even at top level it doesn't seem possible for a marth to play that good...
the same way hbox is just godlike and fox beats puff, i think pp is just godlike and puff beats falco
Mahone
Smash Champion
My tier list!
My tier list is divided into viable, semi-viable, and not viable, but since i don't know enough about the semi-viables and lower to rank them, i've just ranked the viable characters
1: Falco/Fox
2: Sheik, Marth
3: Jigglypuff
4: Peach, Ice Climbers
5: Falcon, Dr.Mario
1: I believe falco does better on average in most mus, but I have him tied with fox because fox does significantly better vs puff and peach. The significant attribute of this tier is that these characters have no BAD mus (40-60 or worse)
2: What's most important about these characters is that they can compete with tier 1, having evenish mus with both fox and falco. I think sheik does a little better than marth vs falco and a little worse than marth vs fox. Sheik also has the benefit of destroying the low tiers and having very solid mus vs the mid tiers. She also beats marth in the head to head. However, sheik does lose to ICs and puff pretty solidly.
Marth has the benefit of having FD vs fox and falco in the current ruleset Best of 5s, which sways the mus to his favor for that one (possibly 2) game(s). He struggles much more vs mid tiers such as pikachu (if u type pikachu it wants to correct it to spinach), but likely wins those mus regardless, so this isn't weighed that heavily.
The difference between these two isn't that big, which is why they are in the same tier, but since marth loses the head to head solidly I rate Sheik slightly higher.
3: Jigglypuff would easily be in tier 2 if it wasn't for her bad mu with fox. She slightly beats falco, beats sheik, and is evenish with marth, possibly beating him, but her mu with fox is BAD. I weigh this very heavily since he is in tier 1. She also struggles much more with mid tiers (and some low tiers) than tiers 1 and 2 (the fact that people are even discussing whether she is even with ylink shows this).
4: Peach gets a lot of points just for being evenish (55-45) vs falco, since the rest of the characters don't really have this ability, and again this is weighted heavily because he is tier 1. She does lose badly to fox, but not much or any worse than the rest of this tier (they all for sure lose to fox). She is actually pretty weak besides falco, since she loses to sheik, is evenish vs marth, and loses BAD to jigglypuff. Peach vs ICs however is probably the worst mu of all the possible mus in the viable tier (in peach's favor).
ICs can be argued to be better than peach since they have a much better mu vs sheik and jigglypuff. They lose to tier 1 for sure, especially fox, but they have a lot of tools to deal with falco... I will be honest and admit that its hard for me to rate ICs since i don't believe i solidly understand them as a character and am not sure how their mus vs tier 1 really go. Their main downside would be having a somewhat hard counter in peach. This rating is assuming wobbling is legal. I guess id have to rate them slightly lower since they lose so badly to peach.
5: I actually think Falcon is pretty bad because he plays so straightforward. I just see him solidly losing to falco and fox, with not much room to gimmick them. Dr.Mario has very similiar mu ratios to falcon vs fox and falco, but i think his moveset and playstyle is conducive to stealing wins more often. They both lose to sheik solidly, both evenish with marth (id say falcon is better though), same thing goes for jiggs (but id say doc is better), then falcon does better, beating peach and ICs. Head to head is evenish.
My tier list is divided into viable, semi-viable, and not viable, but since i don't know enough about the semi-viables and lower to rank them, i've just ranked the viable characters
1: Falco/Fox
2: Sheik, Marth
3: Jigglypuff
4: Peach, Ice Climbers
5: Falcon, Dr.Mario
1: I believe falco does better on average in most mus, but I have him tied with fox because fox does significantly better vs puff and peach. The significant attribute of this tier is that these characters have no BAD mus (40-60 or worse)
2: What's most important about these characters is that they can compete with tier 1, having evenish mus with both fox and falco. I think sheik does a little better than marth vs falco and a little worse than marth vs fox. Sheik also has the benefit of destroying the low tiers and having very solid mus vs the mid tiers. She also beats marth in the head to head. However, sheik does lose to ICs and puff pretty solidly.
Marth has the benefit of having FD vs fox and falco in the current ruleset Best of 5s, which sways the mus to his favor for that one (possibly 2) game(s). He struggles much more vs mid tiers such as pikachu (if u type pikachu it wants to correct it to spinach), but likely wins those mus regardless, so this isn't weighed that heavily.
The difference between these two isn't that big, which is why they are in the same tier, but since marth loses the head to head solidly I rate Sheik slightly higher.
3: Jigglypuff would easily be in tier 2 if it wasn't for her bad mu with fox. She slightly beats falco, beats sheik, and is evenish with marth, possibly beating him, but her mu with fox is BAD. I weigh this very heavily since he is in tier 1. She also struggles much more with mid tiers (and some low tiers) than tiers 1 and 2 (the fact that people are even discussing whether she is even with ylink shows this).
4: Peach gets a lot of points just for being evenish (55-45) vs falco, since the rest of the characters don't really have this ability, and again this is weighted heavily because he is tier 1. She does lose badly to fox, but not much or any worse than the rest of this tier (they all for sure lose to fox). She is actually pretty weak besides falco, since she loses to sheik, is evenish vs marth, and loses BAD to jigglypuff. Peach vs ICs however is probably the worst mu of all the possible mus in the viable tier (in peach's favor).
ICs can be argued to be better than peach since they have a much better mu vs sheik and jigglypuff. They lose to tier 1 for sure, especially fox, but they have a lot of tools to deal with falco... I will be honest and admit that its hard for me to rate ICs since i don't believe i solidly understand them as a character and am not sure how their mus vs tier 1 really go. Their main downside would be having a somewhat hard counter in peach. This rating is assuming wobbling is legal. I guess id have to rate them slightly lower since they lose so badly to peach.
5: I actually think Falcon is pretty bad because he plays so straightforward. I just see him solidly losing to falco and fox, with not much room to gimmick them. Dr.Mario has very similiar mu ratios to falcon vs fox and falco, but i think his moveset and playstyle is conducive to stealing wins more often. They both lose to sheik solidly, both evenish with marth (id say falcon is better though), same thing goes for jiggs (but id say doc is better), then falcon does better, beating peach and ICs. Head to head is evenish.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ice climbers beat puff
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Dr. Mario on par with peach and falcon?
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya, i didn't say anything opposing that, did i? Id say its evenish, im not sure who wins and i don't really care too much
well yes in the same tier, not exactly on par with peach... but ya falcon, i think hes pretty overrated
Gea
Smash Master
Yeah this. Falcon's DD game and Peach's... well defensive game Doc got nothin' on. There are two Doc players right now that are tournament level threats and I feel like they glass ceiling way before any of the many falcons or peaches...
edit: talking about from a point of view of placings and consistency