Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Stevo]

Don't get hit is a sub-optimal strategy.

l2cc and trade

You'll never be JV 5'ing anyone with that kind of attitude!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I feel like Falcon is more susceptible to long dumb Fox combos (uptilts and upsmashes and grabs and uairs) because he seems to be rather bad at getting himself out of combos (a similiar deal to Marth). He doesn't really have moves that protect the areas that Fox challenges once he's in something.

But (and it's good that someone remembered) Falcon can take a lot more abuse than Fox. I guess it's an advantage that Fox (being as light and gimpable as he is) will generally die at lower percents than Falcon.

And Falcons need more uair. And bair. Bair and spaced nairs deal with Fox's main moves (dair and nair) pretty well. And Fox's bair isn't as good at approaching/doesn't have as much "range" as a SH nair.

Even so, I don't think I can see the MU being even, as Fox is generally a more efficient character than Falcon.

 

[Bones0]

Really now

Whoops, that was a typo. lol Kinda obvious based on the context.

Even so, I don't think I can see the MU being even, as Fox is generally a more efficient character than Falcon.

How so? Even if you consider Fox better, I certainly wouldn't attribute it to efficiency. He has the worst combo game out of all of the top tiers. Even the best Fox players typically need 3-4 solid approaches to take out a stock, while other characters can more often get away with just 2 or even 1 first hit. The only saving grace at all is that he is agile enough to get first hits, but having to outplay someone multiple times per stock is the same inefficiency people criticize low tiers for.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, the thing is, having to outplay someone multiple times per stock isn't really a bad thing if you have the tools to abuse each of those instances, which low tiers do not.

And I tend to disagree that characters other than Fox have to outplay people only once or twice. There are times in a stock (even for Falco) where you have to bait a reaction in the combo, or read DI, or accurately predict a tech, and this happens multiple times over the course of a stock. I would consider these kinds of exchanges, where it isn't essentially training mode (so exchanges that aren't Peach chaingrabbing you), situations where there is room for one person to outplay the other. This is more of a nitpicky paragraph, however.

After some thought, I acknowledge that his combo game is probably weaker than most good characters (Fox 0 to deaths don't seem to be a thing anymore), but I think his first hit game (not to be overlooked, imo, because if you can't hit someone, you can't kill them) and followup game (I don't like the idea of a character who NEEDS to "mind read" being considered better than one who doesn't) are more reliable than Falcon's. For me, reliable = effecient.

 

[Youngling]

armada sits in his shield a lot

 

[past_b]

I thought people thought that falco is greater than fox I'm glad I'm wrong.

I still want to hear responses to my claim that sheik could very well be second best in tier list ahead of falco. I think one person addressed it so far I want to hear from more!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nup.

 

[tarheeljks]

I said a while back I thought Fox-Falcon is even. I'll give a brief breakdown of how I see the matchup as far as advantages, and maybe there can be an actual discussion in this thread for once. Or everyone can continue to be dumbfounded by any opinion that implies spacies aren't godless killing machines compared to the rest of the cast. Idc, honestly.

Range/Priority: Falcon wins easily.
Speed: Falcon with a slight edge.
Combos: Both pretty solid, but I think Falcon has the advantage of not having to combo as long as Fox, and him being a fatty can make low %s difficult to work through without grabs.
Power: Falcon wins easily. Fox dying from knees at 60% because he's the 5th lightest character in the game is pretty straight.

Recovery: Fox wins easily for obvious reasons.
Edgeguarding: Fox wins easily both because Falcon's recovery is so bad, but also because he has good edgeguarding tools as is.
Shield Game: Fox wins easily. He can spotdodge, unlike Falcon. Has shine after wakeup and OoS giving him about a million options to ruin momentum if Falcon drops a combo.
Trapping at/near the ledge: Fox wins. He can certainly be trapped by Falcon because he has to be cautious of the huge range on uair and Falcon's general ability to dash away, but when Falcon's trapped near the ledge his limited options make him too much on the predictable side. I see trapped Falcon players taking options like jumping at Fox with a knee and praying it trades or if you're S2J, Falcon kicking (and getting away with it every damn time).

Grabs: Even. Falcon has much more dangerous stuff out of grabs, but it often relies on tech chasing and other less consistent stuff whereas Fox can virtually guarantee a followup, but he's going to kill directly out of a uthrow a lot less than Falcon will out of u/dthrow. At lower percents they seem to have a similar value for setting up combos.


I think a lot of the poor defensive stuff Falcon suffers from is negated more and more the better the players. Top players spend a lot less time shielding than noobs, and even with Fox's great recovery, he is still killed with relative consistency, not to mention he's much more likely to get gimped than Falcon simply because Falcon is too fat to be knocked off stage until higher %s (occasional shine setups are the exception, I guess).

suspect analysis imo. i'll just respond to a few portions

-- fox is functionally faster than falcon regardless of movement speed b/c his moves come out faster
-- while falcon has more range, i think fox has superior hitboxes on most of his moves
-- falcon's followups out of grabs are more difficult to convert, but the grab game is even?
-- you note that falcon does not need long combos, but overlook that these shorter combos require consecutive, correct reads
-- fox is not more likely to get gimped. . .

don't mean to say the mu is unplayable or something, but the above jumps out to me as being very wrong

 

[KirbyKaze]

I said a while back I thought Fox-Falcon is even. I'll give a brief breakdown of how I see the matchup as far as advantages, and maybe there can be an actual discussion in this thread for once. Or everyone can continue to be dumbfounded by any opinion that implies spacies aren't godless killing machines compared to the rest of the cast. Idc, honestly.

Range/Priority: Falcon wins easily.
Speed: Falcon with a slight edge.
Combos: Both pretty solid, but I think Falcon has the advantage of not having to combo as long as Fox, and him being a fatty can make low %s difficult to work through without grabs.
Power: Falcon wins easily. Fox dying from knees at 60% because he's the 5th lightest character in the game is pretty straight.

Recovery: Fox wins easily for obvious reasons.
Edgeguarding: Fox wins easily both because Falcon's recovery is so bad, but also because he has good edgeguarding tools as is.
Shield Game: Fox wins easily. He can spotdodge, unlike Falcon. Has shine after wakeup and OoS giving him about a million options to ruin momentum if Falcon drops a combo.
Trapping at/near the ledge: Fox wins. He can certainly be trapped by Falcon because he has to be cautious of the huge range on uair and Falcon's general ability to dash away, but when Falcon's trapped near the ledge his limited options make him too much on the predictable side. I see trapped Falcon players taking options like jumping at Fox with a knee and praying it trades or if you're S2J, Falcon kicking (and getting away with it every damn time).

Grabs: Even. Falcon has much more dangerous stuff out of grabs, but it often relies on tech chasing and other less consistent stuff whereas Fox can virtually guarantee a followup, but he's going to kill directly out of a uthrow a lot less than Falcon will out of u/dthrow. At lower percents they seem to have a similar value for setting up combos.


I think a lot of the poor defensive stuff Falcon suffers from is negated more and more the better the players. Top players spend a lot less time shielding than noobs, and even with Fox's great recovery, he is still killed with relative consistency, not to mention he's much more likely to get gimped than Falcon simply because Falcon is too fat to be knocked off stage until higher %s (occasional shine setups are the exception, I guess).

This is dumb.

 

[unknown522]

Hahahahhaha

 

[knightpraetor]

I don't usually comment on these types of posts, but the analysis is too suspect because it doesn't properly deal with how much more difficult it is for falcon to land a hit due to the superior hitboxes and speed at which moves come out. Basically, while I am not a high enough level fox or falco to judge it perfectly, at my level at least, fox is distinctly more likely to get a nair approach than falcon is. Falcon can outrange fox's nair but this is too difficult to do as if falcon swings and misses he gets hit, and even if he swings if fox swung just slightly earlier fox wins.

If foxes and falcons were equally likely to get an opening hit, then yeah, the matchup would probably be in falcon's favor. As it is, fox becomes even more likely to gain hits because falcon's crappy shield game combines with his horrendous move priority to make it nearly impossible for falcon to get out once trapped in shield without either giving up half the stage..taking 3-4 hits, or making some risky hard read. Being trapped by falcon in shield as fox would probably be just as dangerous, but fox merely has to get one of his easy to hit nairs and then falcon often is forced to shield followup pressure or just keep getting hit. True combos are unnecessary when your moves are just superior to your opponent and you have the frame advantage to get your aerials out first.

 

[unknown522]

I'll maybe write something about the falcon vs fox thing.

Tired though

 

[Europhoria]

Bones has to be trolling. Only way for the world to make sense

 

[oliman]

I thought people thought that falco is greater than fox I'm glad I'm wrong.

I still want to hear responses to my claim that sheik could very well be second best in tier list ahead of falco. I think one person addressed it so far I want to hear from more!

gonna have to agree with ya.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco > Fox > Sheik

But all three are very close

 

[unknown522]

Bones has to be trolling. Only way for the world to make sense

naw man. It's like the Quiznos discussion at BH2

 

[Twinkles]

Bones, I love your enthusiasm and optimism regarding Falcon in today's metagame

But you're being stupid

):

 

[KirbyKaze]

Damn Twinkles calling *****s out

 

[JPOBS]

Or everyone can continue to be dumbfounded by any opinion that implies spacies aren't godless killing machines compared to the rest of the cast. Idc, honestly.

I like you. Not because I agree with your opinion, but because at least you aren't afraid to form opinions and try to challenge the status quo by bringing in new ideas.

peach > marth.

To go back to fox vs. falco.
I don't understand how some people think falco is better than fox (I think I read some past posts about how falco is at least his equal if not better.)

Cuz falco has lasers that work and his combo's don't randomly get broken by arbitrary shenanigans.

Looking at each of their character match ups, fox is clearly superior. Fox does better than falco, IMO, in the ice climber, jiggz, and peach match up.

I guess.

I even think that fox does better against marth than falco does, but I'm probably in the minority in that regard.

Fox vs marth is probably even or very slightly in one favor depending on who you ask. I think the avant garde thinking these days is that marth > fox but idk?
Falco beats marth imo although the europeans will say that marth players suck and f they all powershielded 99% of the time like Leffen/armada can, then falco is free.

Falco does better against...who? Maybe falco himself? but I think that is even debatable.

This is HUGE. Falco is one of the two most popular characters in the game. Being better than fox vs BOTH of the two most popularly played characters (including himself) shouldn't be dismissed.

How can falco possibly be better than or equal to fox?

because his combo's don't suck.

There is a reason why fox mains generally don't have a secondary or a pocket falco. Fox is clearly sustainable by himself. Look at the Javis or the lovages or the jmans of the world. Do any of them bust out a falco or a secondary in tournament? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they don't.

In contrast, let's look at the falcos mains: mango busts out fox in certain matchups. I've even seen shiz and zhu bust out fox on occasion in matchups. The only anomaly I can think of is PP.

Falco is sustainable by himself. I don't really need to say anything more than that.

The argument that falco players, i.e. PP and mango, are dominating the tourney scene, hence falco should be above fox, is consequently weak. As I mentioned earlier, mango uses fox actually quite a bit. In fact, I think he went mostly fox throughout the entire FC tournament.

But mango also uses Falco is some matchups. So by your logic in the previous paragraph, Fox must not be sustainable on his own if mango sometimes chooses to go falco. That was the case you made earlier about Falco's using fox sometimes right? Its a two sided coin.

Now that I said that, I think, at least obviously to me, that fox falco sheik are top 3 no doubt. However, I think that sheik very well could be second on the tier list. As silly as it sounds, I think people underrate sheik (even though everyone knows sheik *****.) I think sheik ***** more than people think. Auto combos on most of the cast, superior edge guarding and gimping game, a devastating tech chase game, a reliable kill move, etc. the list goes on....but I'm probably also in the minority in this, perhaps even the only one that believes sheik should be second on the tier list.

Blah.

I think the reason people underrate sheik compared to the spacies is because she struggles (relatively speaking) vs falcon, ICs, and vs spacies themselves, compared to the spacies, if that makes sense?
Although I think sheik is 3rd best too.

But honestly, the BIGGEST thing about fox is that his combo's are relatively poor compared to Falco/marth/sheik. His stregnth is his speed and ability to land first hits. But because of various game mechanics, his combo's often get broken for dumb reasons, and that matters A LOT at high level. At high levels where someone can sdi the drill ->counter death combo, it just hurts fox a lot. That kind of stuff doesn't happen to falco. And then SDI'ing the upair is a similar deal.

 

[KirbyKaze]

As one of the makers of the status quo, I cannot allow this tomfoolery to continue.

Look, a distraction!

 

[Pink Reaper]

You know, sometimes the status quo is actually right, that's why it's the status quo. Just saying.

KirbyKaze > Javi

 

[Europhoria]

naw man. It's like the Quiznos discussion at BH2

But that was with Falco players, we all know the Falco player tier list is like

Fox
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Doc
Climbers
Donkey Kong
Falco

 

[odinNJ]

As one of the makers of the status quo, I cannot allow this tomfoolery to continue.

Look, a distraction!

Hey now you cant just...
wait,
falco is bet...
but shei....

**** THAT THING IS CUTE

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox and Falco are better than Sheik vs ICs and Puff FWIW

 

[Twinkles]

KK ilu but sometimes I feel like I'm the one pulling all the weight in this relationship

It's hard voicing your opinion when you're 99% sure you're wrong or you're misinformed about very important things about the metagame. All I know is Falcon surely loses to all 3 of FFS, though his rampaging punish game makes it hard to pinpoint (at least for me) exact ratios besides "winning", "losing", and "evenish."

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK ilu but sometimes I feel like I'm the one pulling all the weight in this relationship

I never feel appreciated!

 

[unknown522]

But that was with Falco players, we all know the Falco player tier list is like

Fox
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Doc
Climbers
Donkey Kong
Falco

hhahahaha. Sounds about right

 

[odinNJ]

Is it just me or does the 2010 tierlist resemble a falcon players tier list?

 

[Pink Reaper]

But that was with Falco players, we all know the Falco player tier list is like

Fox
Marth
Captain Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Doc
Climbers
Donkey Kong
Falco

But like, Falco can be chaingrabbed and comboed by EVERYBODY. He's not even that good. MAYBE better than DK but idk.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah dude he dies at like 0
Awful character

 

[odinNJ]

Even my character can 0-death him on FD, the most absolutelty unbiased and fair stage ever, right guys!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Roy > Falco

 

[Ripple]

I've been on that train for years

 

[Pink Reaper]

What's it like to have a whole train to yourself?

 

[Warhawk]

Sheik struggles vs Falcon? I don't think she's much worse vs Falcon than the spacies.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Anyone who thinks Bones is trolling clearly doesn't know how Bones Logic™ works. Falcons are doing better than Fox in tournaments at the moment.

Therefore, Fox sucks and Falcon da bes.

 

[past_b]

This is HUGE. Falco is one of the two most popular characters in the game. Being better than fox vs BOTH of the two most popularly played characters (including himself) shouldn't be dismissed.

I suppose that is a good point. However, I don't think the number of fox and falco players in tourneys exceed that of the rest of the cast.

But mango also uses Falco is some matchups. So by your logic in the previous paragraph, Fox must not be sustainable on his own if mango sometimes chooses to go falco. That was the case you made earlier about Falco's using fox sometimes right? Its a two sided coin.

I guess I just see mango as a falco main who uses fox for specific match ups, not the other way around.

I think the reason people underrate sheik compared to the spacies is because she struggles (relatively speaking) vs falcon, ICs, and vs spacies themselves, compared to the spacies, if that makes sense?

I don't agree with the falcon part. I think she destroys falcon as much as spacies, but that's just my opinion. But I understand what you are saying. While I think she does relatively well against spacies, she has more trouble against spacies than spacies themselves do.


But yeah, you did bring us some good points in your last post over all, something to think about.

 

[odinNJ]

I've been on that train for years

I thought he was a truck.

also the whole falco does better against falco than fox does thing is a positivev feedback loop, i dont know the rules reagarding using positive feedback loops in arguments

 

[Ripple]

What's it like to have a whole train to yourself?

I've got so much room for activities

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik struggles vs Falcon? I don't think she's much worse vs Falcon than the spacies.

Sheik can be thrown into knee, which is kind of lame.

That said she hits him about as hard as Falco does so that's pretty dumb too. And she can crouch over half his relevant moveset if she plays her cards right.

Moral of this story?

Falcon vs. Fox is even and Sheik is a villainous tart.