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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Purpletuce

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
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1,316
Location
Corvallis, OR
Wow, one American says something and it is "Americans. . ." Props for the Hitler callout^, it seemed appropriate and humorous.. I haven't checked this thread in a long time, so I was surprise that it hasn't progressed much, I guess I'm not the only one less involved when school comes out.

In regards to 1v2, Yoshis strengths and weaknesses seem more exaggerated in that situation, which is interesting. As always, Yoshi's defenses are bad, but in 1v2, he dies if on the defensive, but since in 1v2, that usually is the case anyway, I don't think it is much of a restriction compared to most other characters. Yoshi does have good offense and a fast one two, so he seems to do decent there. Ex: knock away 1, combo the other, switch etc. quick little 1v1s, I've ,managed for a while before. I think it is only applicable when your teammate is temp gone from offstage/death, and you still maintain previous positioning and can act quickly, if your teammate is outright eliminated, I think Yoshi is pretty screwed (assuming smart opponents that want to win).
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,559
It doesn't matter where you put it as long as it's somewhere below Luigi.

It makes most sense after DK though because of the tier separation, but really the tier list is more about how well the characters do against the relevant characters, not against the ****ty ones, so "low tier" may or may not be an accurate representation of how they would interact with each other.
 
Kink-Link5

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
6,232
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Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Every time I watch Phanna's old videos I always think "Wow what a crazy character, once Samuses put all this stuff into their game she'll easily place well in a tournament."

And then they do put it in, and then they don't place for ****.
 
P

past_b

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
95
To go back to fox vs. falco.
I don't understand how some people think falco is better than fox (I think I read some past posts about how falco is at least his equal if not better.)
Looking at each of their character match ups, fox is clearly superior. Fox does better than falco, IMO, in the ice climber, jiggz, and peach match up. I even think that fox does better against marth than falco does, but I'm probably in the minority in that regard.
Falco does better against...who? Maybe falco himself? but I think that is even debatable.
How can falco possibly be better than or equal to fox?
There is a reason why fox mains generally don't have a secondary or a pocket falco. Fox is clearly sustainable by himself. Look at the Javis or the lovages or the jmans of the world. Do any of them bust out a falco or a secondary in tournament? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they don't.
In contrast, let's look at the falcos mains: mango busts out fox in certain matchups. I've even seen shiz and zhu bust out fox on occasion in matchups. The only anomaly I can think of is PP.
The argument that falco players, i.e. PP and mango, are dominating the tourney scene, hence falco should be above fox, is consequently weak. As I mentioned earlier, mango uses fox actually quite a bit. In fact, I think he went mostly fox throughout the entire FC tournament.


Now that I said that, I think, at least obviously to me, that fox falco sheik are top 3 no doubt. However, I think that sheik very well could be second on the tier list. As silly as it sounds, I think people underrate sheik (even though everyone knows sheik *****.) I think sheik ***** more than people think. Auto combos on most of the cast, superior edge guarding and gimping game, a devastating tech chase game, a reliable kill move, etc. the list goes on....but I'm probably also in the minority in this, perhaps even the only one that believes sheik should be second on the tier list.

Blah.
 
DerfMidWest

DerfMidWest

Fresh ******
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Cleveland, OH
Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
The argument is that falco beats fox head to head and has lasers and does better in the current metagame blah blah blah.

Fox is the best character in this game.
Falco is really annoying and clearly right bellow fox.
 
Doser

Doser

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
I keep hearing that Falco must be the best, but I also hear that he has roughly even matchups with Peach, Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Jiggs.

Has this changed now? I guess I'm not seeing what makes him clearly the best character.
 
DerfMidWest

DerfMidWest

Fresh ******
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SOFA#941
He's not clearly the best. Its debated between him and fox (who are clearly better than the rest of the cast, but sheik is good too)

Also, imo, falco loses to peach, goes even with marth, and has slight advantage over fox (but its reeeeally slight), and goes even with puff.
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
I'm pretty sure the people who think Falco > Fox don't think Falco's MUs are wrong, they think Fox's are.

Like...

-Fox-:
Falco: 55:45
Jigglypuff: 4:6
Sheik: 5:5
Marth: 5:5
Peach: 4:6
Falcon: 4:6

-Falco-
Fox: 45:55
Jigglypuff: 4:6
Sheik: 5:5
Marth: 4:6
Peach: 4:6
Falcon: 4:6

something like that?
 
The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
Grim Tuesday said:
There is no "reverse", it is all based on perspective.
Click to expand...
Yeah but it would be more intuitive to post from the Fox's/Falco's perspective in this situation. Obviously it's not hard to figure out but it's annoying to read. Like a grammar error. But I'm just being *****y lol

Grim Tuesday said:
I trust the Melee community is smart enough to realize that Fox doesn't lose to Falcon.
Click to expand...
So I take it you haven't seen Bones0's posts? :troll:
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Peach doesn't lose to Falco 4:6, lol. She'd be 10th or some crap if that were the case. On both sides, you'll hear that that MU is even. One of the only ones among the good characters we can agree on.

And he doesn't beat Marth by that much either, but that's more debatable.

I can see Sheik being second. But Puff and ICs are kind of an issue.
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
i'd probably give peach a slight edge vs falco, but meh. There are way too many 6-4 matchups in that list. melee is more balanced than that....unless you're playing falcon/ICs or lower.
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Joined
Aug 31, 2005
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11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
The Star King said:
So I take it you haven't seen Bones0's posts? :troll:
Click to expand...
I said a while back I thought Fox-Falcon is even. I'll give a brief breakdown of how I see the matchup as far as advantages, and maybe there can be an actual discussion in this thread for once. Or everyone can continue to be dumbfounded by any opinion that implies spacies aren't godless killing machines compared to the rest of the cast. Idc, honestly.

Range/Priority: Falcon wins easily.
Speed: Falcon with a slight edge.
Combos: Both pretty solid, but I think Falcon has the advantage of not having to combo as long as Fox, and him being a fatty can make low %s difficult to work through without grabs.
Power: Falcon wins easily. Fox dying from knees at 60% because he's the 5th lightest character in the game is pretty straight.

Recovery: Fox wins easily for obvious reasons.
Edgeguarding: Fox wins easily both because Falcon's recovery is so bad, but also because he has good edgeguarding tools as is.
Shield Game: Fox wins easily. He can spotdodge, unlike Falcon. Has shine after wakeup and OoS giving him about a million options to ruin momentum if Falcon drops a combo.
Trapping at/near the ledge: Fox wins. He can certainly be trapped by Falcon because he has to be cautious of the huge range on uair and Falcon's general ability to dash away, but when Falcon's trapped near the ledge his limited options make him too much on the predictable side. I see trapped Falcon players taking options like jumping at Fox with a knee and praying it trades or if you're S2J, Falcon kicking (and getting away with it every damn time).

Grabs: Even. Falcon has much more dangerous stuff out of grabs, but it often relies on tech chasing and other less consistent stuff whereas Fox can virtually guarantee a followup, but he's going to kill directly out of a uthrow a lot less than Falcon will out of u/dthrow. At lower percents they seem to have a similar value for setting up combos.


I think a lot of the poor defensive stuff Falcon suffers from is negated more and more the better the players. Top players spend a lot less time shielding than noobs, and even with Fox's great recovery, he is still killed with relative consistency, not to mention he's much more likely to get gimped than Falcon simply because Falcon is too fat to be knocked off stage until higher %s (occasional shine setups are the exception, I guess).
 
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