Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[JPOBS]

oh that's what you were doing? That is some meta trolling right there.
You are truely the master of smashboards warriorness.

 

[leffen]

I spelled it out for you, you dumb ****

 

[JPOBS]

implying your original message didn't read " I do however think that by moving this thread offtopic, you will move attention away from your horrible post, letting fewer people view it"

nice edit

 

[Archangel]

oh leffy....I swear you are 2pac's reincarnation.

 

[leffen]

implying your original message didn't read " I do however think that by moving this thread offtopic, you will move attention away from your horrible post, letting fewer people view it"

nice edit

I didn't edit that, mods can check it for me. What I did was add "Thank you for helping me achieve this"

and even if I did, it still worked didn't it?

 

[JPOBS]

Indubitably

 

[Sukai]

Well that internet argument was lovely. Now then...

Speed and kill power are only 2 out of a million different variables that you need to take into account when comparing how strong a character is...

Tier lists are not as complex as you're making it. Tiers can be determined by very few factors, at it's lowest, match ups. You can go to over complicate things and make it seem like some super intelligent endeavor that can only be overcome by an elite group or elities, but....it's not that complicated.
Of course tier lists are subjective by nature since everyone is going to think that x characters are better or worse than y characters for whatever reasons.

That said, I was comparing Fox and Falco, and I define it by what the character is practically capable of, "practically" meaning under the hands of a player who can use their fullest potential, because why determine a character's strengths by half-*****/second rate implementation?
Not claiming to know everything, just another humble opinion.

Falco has a few, but really powerful strengths (that Fox lacks), including pretty much the best and versatile zoning game, combos that work on virtually any percent below kill range and less commitment in his projectiles due to their comboability.
On the other hand, Fox has more speed to throw the opponent off, a more powerful gimping ability, superiority in vertical KOs, more survivability due to better recovery.

Lol @ Fox > Falco in the MU.

Again, not claiming to know everything, but I do legitimately think that Fox is superior in the match up.

 

[ViperGold42]

I have never seen such flawed arguments in a long time.

JPOBS, Spam Arrows. I salute you. You're officially too stupid warrant me ****** you in a discussion

@DoH: Vanz and MacD quit (peach). As for Sheik players there are Tope, KDJ, M2K, Amsah, KK among many others

not too many Sheik mains, M2K is more of a Fox main but I wil lgive you that.

 

[Doc King]

I really don't think that Peach is 1st at all. There really aren't too many Peach mains and Peach is pretty slow and does poorly against Fox and Marth.

Fox should definitely be like 2nd best because Fox (Like Falco) is very popular. A lot of Foxes make it to bracket and they place well like Javi placed 4th with Fox at Apex.

 

[Blistering Speed]

not too many Sheik mains, M2K is more of a Fox main but I wil lgive you that.

I really don't think that Peach is 1st at all. There really aren't too many Peach mains and Peach is pretty slow and does poorly against Fox and Marth.

Fox should definitely be like 2nd best because Fox (Like Falco) is very popular. A lot of Foxes make it to bracket and they place well like Javi placed 4th with Fox at Apex.

The two most consistently stupid posters in this thread.

 

[choknater]

that's really messed up man

 

[Crooked Crow]

not too many Sheik mains, M2K is more of a Fox main but I wil lgive you that.

Are you serious?

 

[Doc King]

The two most consistently stupid posters in this thread.

Wow, how am I stupid? Do you really think Peach is 1st place, beating Falco, Marth, Sheik, Fox, and Puff? She's good but she's not as good as these characters.

Edit: I think M2K is more of a Sheik and Marth player. He plays Fox but not as much as Sheik and Marth.

 

[ViperGold42]

Are you serious?

Why so serious?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The two most consistently stupid posters in this thread.

You actually have to not be stupid in order to declare others stupid.

 

[DoH]

@DoH: Vanz and MacD quit (peach). As for Sheik players there are Tope, KDJ, M2K, Amsah, KK among many others

Tope is in the navy and can't play, KDJ rarely ventures out of NE, M2K doesn't count, and I haven't seen Amsah active as much

 

[Sukai]

Can we like, not throw around the stupid card?

 

[ViperGold42]

Can we like, not throw around the stupid card?

some people are very immature, I agree with ya.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Can we like, not throw around the stupid card?

stu·pid/ˈst(y)o͞opid/
Adjective:
Lacking intelligence or common sense.


though i do agree that we should try to stay away from insulting others

 

[ViperGold42]

stu·pid/ˈst(y)o͞opid/
Adjective:
Lacking intelligence or common sense.


though i do agree that we should try to stay away from insulting others

highly immature of people to insult others because they don't agree with them.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Wow, how am I stupid? Do you really think Peach is 1st place, beating Falco, Marth, Sheik, Fox, and Puff? She's good but she's not as good as these characters.

Your ridiculously contradictory rationale is what I disagree with. It's a continuing trend.

though i do agree that we should try to stay away from insulting others

If the shoe fits.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I used to be of the opinion that I should not block/ignore people for being dumb, posting dumbly, trolling, or w/e other reasons that cause me to cease communication because eventually it is possible that they reform. I've recently come to the conclusion that life is too short to give people second chances, especially on the internet. Blistering Speed, welcome to my ignore list. Don't worry, you wont get lonely.

 

[Jethrotex]

I have a poetry analysis assignment due by the end of the week; I may analyze that post for its beauty and poetic nature.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I have a poetry analysis assignment due by the end of the week; I may analyze that post for its beauty and poetic nature.

Sveet is undoubtedly this generation's Keats, abandoning the concept of forgiveness because of a brash tone on the internet.

 

[The Star King]

I forgive you Blistering Speed

 

[john!]

okay seriously this thread kinda sucks now

you guys are going around in circles and don't seem to be reaching each other because you don't know what you're talking about (not addressed to anyone in particular)

read this:

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

the problem with using individual players such as mango and armada to derive tier list results is that player skill becomes too large of a factor. characters in a game exist independently of whomever decides to play them. which is not to say that we should base our tier list entirely on theory, which is wrong for two reasons:

- your knowledge of smash theory is influenced almost entirely by actual tournament performance, whether you realize it or not

- your knowledge of smash theory is biased due to your individual, limited knowledge of characters, mechanics, etc.

so what are we supposed to use to make a tier list? a tier list is made by taking tournament results and correcting for the variation among individual players. saying "peach is the best character because armada is the best player in the world" does not correct for individual player skill. armada's "skill level" is an unknown constant.

the easiest way to correct for individual skill is by taking a larger sample of players; the law of large numbers indicates that variation in individual skill level will become less of a factor as the sample size grows. however, our sample size has to be small enough so that we aren't including players who aren't at the level of play that we are trying to represent. we can also weight the relevance of a player based on how good their results are, if we choose to do so. this seems like the best method for making a tier list (and could be accomplished relatively easily using data from power rankings or the SSBPD).

 

[Doc King]

Your ridiculously contradictory rationale is what I disagree with. It's a continuing trend.

If the shoe fits.

Well it's my opinion, but feel very free to correct me with what I did wrong. I just seems like an obvious reason to me.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Good post, john. I think you're spot on, but few people will actually read it. :\

 

[The Star King]

Yeah I won't read it, that's why concise posts are secretly more effective

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In my opinion, the question is, what is top level play? Is top level Peach play based on Armada, because he's the top Peach player? Or is Armada an outlier, and top level Peach play below what he does? Or is top level play based on theory, and above the level we've seen people play at? Assuming Armada is the top player at the moment, is top level play Armada level play for every character? Or, do we just do what John said, which seems like a compromise between the various option.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't want to comment on this "discussion" for obvious reasons but..

There are generally 4 Peach players that make bracket at any given international, being Armdada, VaNZ, MacD, and myself. I don't think there are that many Sheik and Marth players making it to bracket at that level.

I know he doesn't travel anymore, but if we are talking about high level players, Vwins has to be in the discussion. He just (last weekend) beat Diakonos, Unknown, Kage, and Bam (x2) in singles and won teams over Unknown+Kage. Of course consistent results are most important when evaluating players, and Vwins is no longer active enough to warrant too much attention, but it seems silly to me that he never at least gets a mention when he very well may be the 2nd best Peach in the scene.

...

...

also, to those that say spacies players are the "majority" of the scene, I'd like to know which community you are in. Other than notoriously spacie-heavy regions (Washington, tristate), I'd say we are pretty diverse. iirc, the SSBPD (when it was still up) had Fox PLUS Falco numbers equal to only about a quarter of the overall player pool...

tbh, to succeed in our current national tournament format, which commonly has 2-3 rounds of pools with 6-8 players each, you have to know your matchups. Brackets like Javi's at APEX (and he still ran into Vanz) are exceedingly rare.

 

[Deleted member]

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

oh yay i said this. i feel so smart sometimes.

 

[Twinkles]

real talk m2k is a shiek main
with a really good marth secondary

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In my opinion, the question is, what is top level play? Is top level Peach play based on Armada, because he's the top Peach player? Or is Armada an outlier, and top level Peach play below what he does? Or is top level play based on theory, and above the level we've seen people play at? Assuming Armada is the top player at the moment, is top level play Armada level play for every character? Or, do we just do what John said, which seems like a compromise between the various option.

these are all very good questions to pose

 

[DoH]

I always forget about vwins and then he goes and wins tournaments

****in canada

 

[Warhawk]

I really don't think should be number one or even in the top three...

 

[Max?]

Falco
Sheik
Marth
Icies
Jiggs
Fox
Falcon
Peach
DK
Doc
Luigi

Irrelevant

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I really don't think should be number one or even in the top three...

Couldn't say it better myself lol

Spoiler

i hate when i am thinking one thing but forget to write it all out lol (which is what i assume happened to u here)

 

[JPOBS]

Falco
Sheik
Marth
Icies
Jiggs
Fox
Falcon
Peach
DK
Doc
Luigi

Irrelevant

DK up in dis piece..

 

[The Star King]

Especially when you forget the crucial word. "I don't think ___ should be number one..."

I'm gonna guess he meant Peach. PLACE YOUR BETS.